Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

troyzer · 11-02-2019 2:49pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Roux isn't first choice. We do have 15 players who are all better at their job than Roux is at his. That's why he's not first choice. You expect a 3rd choice lock to be at the same level as first choice players. That's just silly.

Edit: Silly is the most polite word I can think of.

I'd be interested in just seeing 15 Roux's on the pitch to be honest.

That would be class.

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 2:50pm

case885 wrote: »

Beirne took over calling Munsters lineout so that's incorrect.

That's nice and all but he hasn't called a line out for Ireland yet.

When he and Roux played against Italy, Roux called it.

Zzippy · 11-02-2019 2:50pm

troyzer wrote: »

I'd be interested in just seeing 15 Roux's on the pitch to be honest.

That would be class.

80 metre mauls for the win!

thomond2006 · 11-02-2019 3:33pm

Tadhg Beirne is on the unavailable list for Munster for Friday. Andrew Conway is back in full training so he should feature. I'd say we won't see Beirne against Italy.

part time punk · 11-02-2019 3:55pm

Trying to follow this ... Assuming all locks are fit does that make the 4 in the WC squad, in alphabetical order to remove any hint of provincial bias:

Henderson, Roux, Ryan, Toner

Or: Beirne, Henderson, Ryan, Toner

I think Roux could have pushed himself ahead of Beirne

troyzer · 11-02-2019 3:56pm

part time punk wrote: »

Trying to follow this ... Assuming all locks are fit does that make the 4 in the WC squad, in alphabetical order to remove any hint of provincial bias:

Henderson, Roux, Ryan, Toner

Or: Beirne, Henderson, Ryan, Toner

I think Roux could have pushed himself ahead of Beirne

The latter.

Beirne simply offers too much upside.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:04pm

Faugheen wrote: »

The only people ahead of Roux are Toner and Henderson. Tadhg Beirne isn’t.

It’s a conversation we’ve had before and I’m not interested in having it again, but if you think Beirne is a head of Roux in this scenario, then you would be wrong.

Beirne is in competition with James Ryan.

I've never had this conversation with you and I don't really care what you're interested in. Beirne is ahead of Roux!

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:05pm

Faugheen wrote: »

We do have those players but they’re injured at the moment.

Toner, Henderson both down. Roux needs to be at their level to come in and do a job? That’s absolutely ridiculous.

No, he's a decent replacement, we won't be winning anything with players of that level though.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:06pm

aloooof wrote: »

NZ won a World Cup with Steven Donald coming on after 34 minutes.

Yes, now imagine if they had a whole team of similar standard to Steven Donald!

aloooof · 11-02-2019 4:10pm

Perifect wrote: »

Yes, now imagine if they had a whole team of similar standard to Steven Donald!

Steven Donald was 3rd choice. So, following your point to it's conclusion, when have we ever had our 15 first choice players, and their 15 back-ups injured simultaneously? Never, is the obvious answer.

We have world class players. And we have able back-ups. Roux is in the latter category. What you're calling for is a depth chart that no team in world sport has.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:12pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Roux isn't first choice. We do have 15 players who are all better at their job than Roux is at his. That's why he's not first choice. You expect a 3rd choice lock to be at the same level as first choice players. That's just silly.

Edit: Silly is the most polite word I can think of.

No, you've missed my point entirely! Roux came in and did fine. That's the level he's at. We need better than fine though, that's why I think other players like Best could be in trouble.

aloooof · 11-02-2019 4:13pm

Perifect wrote: »

No, you've missed my point entirely! Roux came in and did fine. That's the level he's at. We need better than fine though, that's why I think other players like Best could be in trouble.

We manifestly don't, for our 4th/5th choice lock. I've given you the example of NZ winning a World Cup with Steven Donald at 10.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:14pm

aloooof wrote: »

Steven Donald was 3rd choice. So, following your point to it's conclusion, when have we ever had our 15 first choice players, and their 15 back-ups injured simultaneously? Never, is the obvious answer.

We have world class players. And we have able back-ups. Roux is in the latter category. What you're calling for is a depth chart that no team in world sport has.

I'm not calling for that at all!

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:15pm

aloooof wrote: »

We manifestly don't, for our 4th/5th choice lock. I've given you the example of NZ winning a World Cup with Steven Donald at 10.

I've shown you that they didn't have 15 Donald standard players!

sydthebeat · 11-02-2019 4:16pm

Perifect wrote: »

No, you've missed my point entirely! Roux came in and did fine. That's the level he's at. We need better than fine though, .

so who do you think is better than "fine" outside of Toner, Henderson, roux, Beirne, Ryan and Dillane ???

aloooof · 11-02-2019 4:16pm

Perifect wrote: »

I've shown you that they didn't have 15 Donald standard players!

Precisely. And we don't either!

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:17pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

so who do you think is better than "fine" outside of Toner, Henderson, roux, Beirne, Ryan and Dillane ???

No one.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:18pm

aloooof wrote: »

Precisely. And we don't either!

That's what is questionable!

Buer · 11-02-2019 4:19pm

aloooof wrote: »

Steven Donald was 3rd choice.

4th! Somewhere, Jack Carty and Ross Byrne are still dreaming of winning the RWC.

aloooof · 11-02-2019 4:23pm

Perifect wrote: »

That's what is questionable!

You think our starting 15 are questionable enough that they may be at the same level as Steven Donald?

It's at this point, I jump ship as it's making absolute sh*t of the thread...

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:25pm

aloooof wrote: »

You think our starting 15 are questionable enough that they may be at the same level as Steven Donald?

It's at this point, I jump ship as it's making absolute sh*t of the thread...

No, I'm saying we may have players who are at that level, not the entire 15!

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 4:27pm

Perifect wrote: »

I've never had this conversation with you and I don't really care what you're interested in. Beirne is ahead of Roux!

If Henderson and Toner are injured, then he’s not.

He’s not in competition with Roux to start or Ireland, he’s in competition with James Ryan.

Will you read posts before responding to them?

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:31pm

Faugheen wrote: »

If Henderson and Toner are injured, then he’s not.

He’s not in competition with Roux to start or Ireland, he’s in competition with James Ryan.

Will you read posts before responding to them?

No, he's ahead of Roux no matter what! It's because he adds so much more. Which is my point, fine won't cut it!

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 4:36pm

Perifect wrote: »

No, he's ahead of Roux no matter what! It's because he adds so much more. Which is my point, fine won't cut it!

Roux calls line outs for Ireland. Beirne doesn’t. Therefore, Beirne won’t start ahead of Roux.

I couldn’t give a ****e what Beirne offers because until he starts calling lineouts for Ireland then the won’t start ahead of Roux in this situation, unless it’s for James Ryan.

You don’t start 2 non-callers, you start one of each. Since Roux called them against Italy when both he and Beirne were both playing, and he also led the lineout against Scotland, he’s the next in line.

If you’re missing your first two lineout callers then you play your third lineout caller, which is Quinn Roux. I know you may not like that fact, but it is a fact.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:44pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Roux calls line outs for Ireland. Beirne doesn’t. Therefore, Beirne won’t start ahead of Roux.

I couldn’t give a ****e what Beirne offers because until he starts calling lineouts for Ireland then the won’t start ahead of Roux in this situation, unless it’s for James Ryan.

You don’t start 2 non-callers, you start one of each. Since Roux called them against Italy when both he and Beirne were both playing, and he also led the lineout against Scotland, he’s the next in line.

If you’re missing your first two lineout callers then you play your third lineout caller, which is Quinn Roux. I know you may not like that fact, but it is a fact.

Beirne is a caller, you've been told this. He's also a far superior player to Roux. If he's back you start him and you give him experience calling for Ireland. You do this because you want a Beirne standard of player playing at the World cup and not a Roux standard of player.

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 4:48pm

Perifect wrote: »

Beirne is a caller, you've been told this. He's also a far superior player to Roux. If he's back you start him and you give him experience calling for Ireland. You do this because you want a Beirne standard of player playing at the World cup and not a Roux standard of player.

He's not a caller for Ireland. You have been told this.

He could have got experience calling line outs vs Italy and USA in the Autumn, but Joe decided to go with Roux and Henderson.

You said Beirne plays ahead of Roux 'no matter what' and you're wrong. Simple as that. There's really no need to get upset about it.

And the 'Roux standard of player' has always been up for the task when playing for Ireland. I want my locks calling lineouts and hitting rucks. They can dance around all they like but if they don't do your bread and butter then they're almost pointless.

Beirne doesn't call enough lineouts and unless he's stealing ball then he's almost worthless around the breakdown.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 4:56pm

Faugheen wrote: »

He's not a caller for Ireland. You have been told this.

He could have got experience calling line outs vs Italy and USA in the Autumn, but Joe decided to go with Roux and Henderson.

You said Beirne plays ahead of Roux 'no matter what' and you're wrong. Simple as that. There's really no need to get upset about it.

And the 'Roux standard of player' has always been up for the task when playing for Ireland. I want my locks calling lineouts and hitting rucks. They can dance around all they like but if they don't do your bread and butter then they're almost pointless.

Beirne doesn't call enough lineouts and unless he's stealing ball then he's almost worthless around the breakdown.

This is me smiling!

Beirne is a caller, I know this is news to you but you learn something new every day they say. He also made his first start in November. Since then he has been outstanding for Munster and has pushed himself far ahead of Roux.

If the only choice left is between Beirne and Roux, you pick Beirne and let him call the lineout. Simple.

Zzippy · 11-02-2019 4:57pm

Beirne is a great prospect, but he has very little experience calling lineouts. He does some flashy stuff like turnovers and scoring tries, but he also tends to go out of games for periods too. He certainly doesn't show the consistent workrate of Toner, Ryan or Roux. He's also a bit underpowered in the scrum. I guess if Toner is out and Beirne comes back, we'll see who Joe picks, but the smart money is on Roux at this point in time.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:00pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Beirne is a great prospect, but he has very little experience calling lineouts. He does some flashy stuff like turnovers and scoring tries, but he also tends to go out of games for periods too. He certainly doesn't show the consistent workrate of Toner, Ryan or Roux. He's also a bit underpowered in the scrum. I guess if Toner is out and Beirne comes back, we'll see who Joe picks, but the smart money is on Roux at this point in time.

I guess we'll find out then. In my book, Roux is not in the same league as the front 4 locks.

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:01pm

Perifect wrote: »

This is me smiling!

Beirne is a caller, I know this is news to you but you learn something new every day they say. He also made his first start in November. Since then he has been outstanding for Munster and has pushed himself far ahead of Roux.

If the only choice left is between Beirne and Roux, you pick Beirne and let him call the lineout. Simple.

He’s not a caller for Ireland. Jesus Christ. Just because he calls them for Munster sometimes doesn’t mean he’s instantly one for Ireland.

He had a chance in Autumn to get some line out calling experience. Joe decided not to.

You can keep telling me all you want that he’s a line out caller but until he calls them for Ireland, Beirne takes a back seat unless Ryan get hurt as well.

I’m honestly done here. Just sheer ignorance and absolutely no basis for the points being made and it’s just going around in circles.

Zzippy · 11-02-2019 5:01pm

Perifect wrote: »

I guess we'll find out then. In my book, Roux is not in the same league as the front 4 locks.

Yes. If you ignore facts. And stats. And recent history.

Former Former · 11-02-2019 5:04pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Beirne is a great prospect, but he has very little experience calling lineouts. He does some flashy stuff like turnovers and scoring tries, but he also tends to go out of games for periods too. He certainly doesn't show the consistent workrate of Toner, Ryan or Roux. He's also a bit underpowered in the scrum. I guess if Toner is out and Beirne comes back, we'll see who Joe picks, but the smart money is on Roux at this point in time.

Yes, this many times over.

I posted in the lead up to the game that Roux was unproven at full-on test level. He did a solid job against Scotland, and while it's still a step up to the NZ, England, SA of the world, he's earned the right to stay in the conversation.

Beirne on the other hand? One start against Italy A, one start against USA and 20 minutes (at blindside) over two tests against Australia doesn't tell us much about his top-tier credentials. On an international evidence level, he's probably behind Roux. As you say, he might be underpowered.

Interesting times ahead.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:04pm

Faugheen wrote: »

He’s not a caller for Ireland. Jesus Christ. Just because he calls them for Munster sometimes doesn’t mean he’s instantly one for Ireland.

He had a chance in Autumn to get some line out calling experience. Joe decided not to.

You can keep telling me all you want that he’s a line out caller but until he calls them for Ireland, Beirne takes a back seat unless Ryan get hurt as well.

I’m honestly done here. Just sheer ignorance and absolutely no basis for the points being made and it’s just going around in circles.

No need to get so upset about it.

Beirne made his first start in November for Ireland! If he wasn't injured now he would have started ahead of Roux in my opinion, we might find out for certain later in the tournament. He's a far superior player.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:06pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes. If you ignore facts. And stats. And recent history.

Again, Beirne only made his first start a few months ago and now he's injured. In the meantime, Beirne moved closer to challenging for a starting place than challenging Roux for a squad place.

aloooof · 11-02-2019 5:08pm

Perifect wrote: »

In the meantime, Beirne moved closer to challenging for a starting place than challenging Roux for a squad place.

What's your evidence that this is what Joe thinks?

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:10pm

Perifect wrote: »

Again, Beirne only made his first start a few months ago and now he's injured. In the meantime, Beirne moved closer to challenging for a starting place than challenging Roux for a squad place.

I know I said I was done, but Beirne isn’t getting anywhere near the team unless Ryan gets injured especially when Dev and Henderson are back.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:13pm

aloooof wrote: »

What's your evidence that this is what Joe thinks?

Am, Beirne was picked in the original squad, Roux is only there because of all the injuries.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:14pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I know I said I was done, but Beirne isn’t getting anywhere near the team unless Ryan gets injured especially when Dev and Henderson are back.

He'll be ahead of Roux though for sure!

aloooof · 11-02-2019 5:16pm

In the interest of moving things along, is Jack McGrath still injured? And is there an argument that Killer is now playing himself into the position of 2nd choice Loosehead?

My thinking is if all are fit, Kilcoyne may start on the bench, but if Healy gets injured, McGrath would likely start?

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:16pm

Perifect wrote: »

Am, Beirne was picked in the original squad, Roux is only there because of all the injuries.

Dillane was ahead of Roux in the initial squad as well.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:19pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Dillane was ahead of Roux in the initial squad as well.

Yes?

Former Former · 11-02-2019 5:20pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Dillane was ahead of Roux in the initial squad as well.

But this assumes Dillane and Roux are competing with each other.

What if Joe said, I have two proven, international tighthead locks in Toner and Henderson, so I don't need Roux, but I only have one proven loosehead lock in Ryan, so I'll call up both Beirne and Dillane to see how they go?

There was no way Roux was getting ahead of a fit Toner or Hendo, but a fit Dillane might actually be better than a fit Beirne.

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:21pm

Perifect wrote: »

Yes?

Just pointing out there's a flaw to your theory that Joe rates Beirne more than Roux because Beirne was in the initial squad.

aloooof · 11-02-2019 5:22pm

Former Former wrote: »

But this assumes Dillane and Roux are competing with each other.

Which is the equivalent assumption Perifect is making by saying Beirne is ahead of Roux.

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:22pm

Former Former wrote: »

But this assumes Dillane and Roux are competing with each other.

What if Joe said, I have two proven, international tighthead locks in Toner and Henderson, so I don't need Roux, but I only have one proven loosehead lock in Ryan, so I'll call up both Beirne and Dillane to see how they go?

There was no way Roux was getting ahead of a fit Toner or Hendo, but a fit Dillane might actually be better than a fit Beirne.

Did you not read the post I quoted?

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:23pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Just pointing out there's a flaw to your theory that Joe rates Beirne more than Roux because Beirne was in the initial squad.

There's no flaw. Beirne was picked ahead of Roux because Joe considers him higher up the pecking order.

aloooof · 11-02-2019 5:24pm

Perifect wrote: »

There's no flaw. Beirne was picked ahead of Roux because Joe considers him higher up the pecking order.

Dillane was picked ahead of Roux also. Yet started on the bench behind him on Saturday. There's your flaw.

Faugheen · 11-02-2019 5:24pm

Perifect wrote: »

There's no flaw. Beirne was picked ahead of Roux because Joe considers him higher up the pecking order.

Ok.

You just ignore everything that's been said to you and go with your own assumptions despite the fact they are all deeply flawed.

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:28pm

aloooof wrote: »

Which is the equivalent assumption Perifect is making by saying Beirne is ahead of Roux.

Beirne was selected ahead of Roux, he was next in line behind Toner and Henderson!

Perifect · 11-02-2019 5:29pm

aloooof wrote: »

Dillane was picked ahead of Roux also. Yet started on the bench behind him on Saturday. There's your flaw.

How can you not remember that Beirne calls the line outs for Munster? It was literally on the last page!

Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

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