Hambini vs Cervelo

ED E · 16-09-2019 10:15pm #1

For those that don't know Hambini is the Sheldon Brown of bike bearings. Nerdy OCD engineer. Well he's gone on the assault against Cervelo.

Just like DC Rainmaker and GPLama I'd hold his opinion in pretty high regard.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 16-09-2019 10:37pm

Watched it yesterday. He’s attacked Cervelo several times before in his other videos and with good reason. Their QA is non existent and the fact that they drastically increased the tolerance levels shows their contempt for quality.

I love how Cervelo bikes look and they were always the bike I hankered after. I was seconds away from buying an R3 earlier this year but plumped for an S-Works in the end and glad I did so.

Hambini is a straight talker, I have watched all his videos and find them so interesting.

I have a Hambini bottom bracket. He actually personally machined it for me himself after I emailed him to ask when they’d be back in stock and he said 2 to 3 weeks and asked how quickly I needed one. I told him I was hoping sooner rather than later. He messaged me on Sunday evening and said he’d get it done in the next day or two. He messaged me Monday evening and told me he’d finished it and it was in the post to me. I got it on Wednesday morning. Top class service and his BB are a work of art!!

ED E · 16-09-2019 10:44pm

The "get a Look" comment is nice

eeeee · 17-09-2019 8:27am

I saw that.
What's his beef with cannondale? I have two :eek:

fat bloke · 17-09-2019 8:44am

49 minutes??!! Ah cripes. Can someone distill it for me and tell me why my 7 year old still-riding-beautifully Cervelo R5 is a bag a' sh1te?

magicbastarder · 17-09-2019 8:47am

in wonder how cervelo's lawyers will react to cervelo being called scumbags?

Plastik · 17-09-2019 9:56am

fat bloke wrote: »

49 minutes??!! Ah cripes. Can someone distill it for me and tell me why my 7 year old still-riding-beautifully Cervelo R5 is a bag a' sh1te?

Voids in the frame
BB with parallel misalignment, angular misalignment, and ovalisation
Affects all models of Cervelo
Spec on BB's adjusted a number of years ago so these now pass QC - your older frame might still be OK
Spec signed off by Damon Rinard, now of Cannondale, who suffer with massive QC issues on BB30/BB30a BB's
"Independent" information from NTN and SKF who say they are unable to make bearings to the spec that Cervelo state, expect as little as 20% of bearing life, and bearing companies are refusing to warranty their bearings if used in Cervelo frames

His stuff is excellent, I doubt he gives a damn about lawyer letters. Thankfully.

Eamonnator · 17-09-2019 11:09am

Plastik wrote: »

Voids in the frame
BB with parallel misalignment, angular misalignment, and ovalisation
Affects all models of Cervelo
Spec on BB's adjusted a number of years ago so these now pass QC - your older frame might still be OK
Spec signed off by Damon Rinard, now of Cannondale, who suffer with massive QC issues on BB30/BB30a BB's
"Independent" information from NTN and SKF who say they are unable to make bearings to the spec that Cervelo state, expect as little as 20% of bearing life, and bearing companies are refusing to warranty their bearings if used in Cervelo frames

His stuff is excellent, I doubt he gives a damn about lawyer letters. Thankfully.

Even so, the orange jumpsuit is unforgivable.

fat bloke · 17-09-2019 11:51am

Plastik wrote: »

Voids in the frame
BB with parallel misalignment, angular misalignment, and ovalisation
Affects all models of Cervelo
Spec on BB's adjusted a number of years ago so these now pass QC - your older frame might still be OK
Spec signed off by Damon Rinard, now of Cannondale, who suffer with massive QC issues on BB30/BB30a BB's
"Independent" information from NTN and SKF who say they are unable to make bearings to the spec that Cervelo state, expect as little as 20% of bearing life, and bearing companies are refusing to warranty their bearings if used in Cervelo frames

His stuff is excellent, I doubt he gives a damn about lawyer letters. Thankfully.

Does your Cannondale give you a lot of grief?

Plastik · 17-09-2019 1:28pm

fat bloke wrote: »

Does your Cannondale give you a lot of grief?

Of my two, the CAAD10 runs BB30 and I converted it to BSA standard essentially, using a threaded aluminium sleeve that FSA make https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/fsa-bb30-threaded-adapter-b3119-/rp-prod129935 - not a permanent solution, can be removed again if you wanted to run a 30mm crank but you'd need special tools and it's in there with Loctite retaining compound. Best thing I ever did. The SuperSix is BB30a/PF30 and I had endless trouble after a period of silence with creaking. It has been ok for a long, long time now though.

Cannondale just seem to be known for very poor QC. Hambini speculated that it's boring the BB from one side, flipping the frame, and boring from the other causing some of the issues and another being worn tooling on the lines. Some of the BB30 applications he has tested on "chinese" frames have been substantially better in their tolerances spec.

Flo wheels - I think they've sent him cease and desist letters already.
Ceramicspeed - close to the same.
Zipp - Might have one in drafting after the last video where he completely debunks their dimples claims.
Cannondale - regularly slated.

Kaisr Sose · 17-09-2019 1:41pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

in wonder how cervelo's lawyers will react to cervelo being called scumbags?

He is well used to lawyers and threats of legal action from his negative reviews of FLO aero wheels. I don't think he cares. To him facts are what it's all about and FLO seemed less inclined to provide them.

TheBlaaMan · 17-09-2019 1:52pm

I thought it was a great watch! Great to see and engineer trumping a marketeer........I imagine his lawyers are busy, but he doesnt seem to give a fcuk, especially as he seems able to stand over everything he claims - hard to argue with someone who can prove an issue down to 0.15mm tolerance.......

I wonder what he thinks of Colnago.......

North of 32 · 17-09-2019 3:07pm

I find his videos fantastic. It is so refreshing to have an engineer cut through the enormous amount of marketing bollocks in the cycling industry and expose their corner cutting.

Borderfox · 17-09-2019 4:15pm

Really enjoyed that, thanks

secman · 17-09-2019 4:40pm

As someone said, he's backing up his slating with plenty of data and hard facts, im sure Cervelo really really don't want to go to court.....

Lusk_Doyle · 17-09-2019 4:56pm

Never had such issues with my r3 sl. Interesting watch all the same.

Lumen · 17-09-2019 5:39pm

I haven't touched my Cannondale BB in the four or five years that I've owned it. Still perfect.

Kaisr Sose · 17-09-2019 5:56pm

secman wrote: »

As someone said, he's backing up his slating with plenty of data and hard facts, im sure Cervelo really really don't want to go to court.....

FLO wrote to his employers HR section asking they sack him for misuse of its resources. He posted the exchange between the lawyers and him. That was pretty LO of FLO. It's not their business where he conducts the tests. He claims their aero drag does not include the spokes. They refute the claim. He asked them to provide their data but they did not.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 17-09-2019 6:22pm

I’d imagine he doesn’t even have a lawyer solicitor as he would most likely be only too happy for Cervelo or Zipp or Flo or any other of the company to issue proceedings and go to court and prove their case against him. He has all the data to back up everything he says whereas if any of these companies genuinely wanted to challenge him in court they would have to provide their own data or agree to independent testing to disprove Hambinis data and they can’t do that as they’d be found out.

ED E · 17-09-2019 6:27pm

Lumen wrote: »

I haven't touched my Cannondale BB in the four or five years that I've owned it. Still perfect.

The point is not that ALL units are bad, its just bad ones still pass QC with them. eg: Look build 100 frames and Cervelo build 100 frames. Both have the same quality manufacturing line and 10 units each are lemons. Look trashes 10 frames. Cervelo trashes the worst 2 and sells the other 98. Thats what stretching the tolerances does. There'll still be some good frames in the mix.

Weepsie · 17-09-2019 6:50pm

I don't think it would be that straightforward for him in court. He'd surely have to replicate it. There is no statistical significance really in testing 1 frame and then saying they are all bad and pasting an entire company for it.

Eamonnator · 17-09-2019 7:17pm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

FLO wrote to his employers HR section asking they sack him for misuse of its resources. He posted the exchange between the lawyers and him. That was pretty LO of FLO. It's not their business where he conducts the tests. He claims their aero drag does not include the spokes. They refute the claim. He asked them to provide their data but they did not.

Flo deny writing that letter

https://flocycling.com/blogs/blog/flos-side-of-the-hambini-accusations

magicbastarder · 17-09-2019 7:49pm

Weepsie wrote: »

I don't think it would be that straightforward for him in court. He'd surely have to replicate it.

yeah, it's not up to them to prove he's wrong, it's up to him to prove he's right. however, i suspect one thing holding the companies back would be the streisand effect.

eeeee · 17-09-2019 8:47pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Even so, the orange jumpsuit is unforgivable.

This is what drew me to the vid - that and the princess bedsheet :pac:

Kaisr Sose · 17-09-2019 10:06pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Flo deny writing that letter

https://flocycling.com/blogs/blog/flos-side-of-the-hambini-accusations

They have denied a lot other things too. The funny thing is, who else would write that letter, and what would their motive be?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 17-09-2019 10:42pm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

They have denied a lot other things too. The funny thing is, who else would write that letter, and what would their motive be?

I have to agree. Hambini has absolutely nothing to gain from any of this, it would be understandable if he represented some wheel manufacturer/company but he’s just a cyclist who happens to be an aerospace engineer and discovered serious flaws in the information being spouted by big companies.

Harrybelafonte · 18-09-2019 11:25am

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I have to agree. Hambini has absolutely nothing to gain from any of this, it would be understandable if he represented some wheel manufacturer/company but he’s just a cyclist who happens to be an aerospace engineer and discovered serious flaws in the information being spouted by big companies.

Does he also not run a business making custom bottom brackets?

Weepsie · 18-09-2019 11:38am

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Does he also not run a business making custom bottom brackets?

He does, and barings for various things. To say he has nothing to gain from this is not true. Not that, that is necessarily his intention, but he does have his own company to think of too.

Plastik · 18-09-2019 12:17pm

Yes, ultimately has some skin in the game too. Regularly replies to threads on weightweenies and defends his positions.

If you're a regular viewer of his stuff though you'll see that he spends substantially more time speaking about aero, and debunking various aero claims, than he does plugging the BB's solutions that he makes.

Harrybelafonte · 18-09-2019 1:14pm

Plastik wrote: »

Yes, ultimately has some skin in the game too. Regularly replies to threads on weightweenies and defends his positions.

If you're a regular viewer of his stuff though you'll see that he spends substantially more time speaking about aero, and debunking various aero claims, than he does plugging the BB's solutions that he makes.

He does. But I think that any online presence, especially on YT, these days which is based on, even in part, in contending the position of others and creating any kind of hullabaloo which causes videos to go viral, even in a limited market should be treated with some cynicism.

It would be interesting to see if his YT vids are monetized too.

I don’t have any engineering knowledge and can’t stake a side in the game either way. I just feel that painting him as a dogooder standing up to big business or any similar selfless act is dishonest by omission.

Kaisr Sose · 18-09-2019 1:51pm

Weepsie wrote: »

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Does he also not run a business making custom bottom brackets?

He does, and barings for various things. To say he has nothing to gain from this is not true. Not that, that is necessarily his intention, but he does have his own company to think of too.

Bearings or Bottom brackets are parts for wheels and frames. Maybe he will start designing and building his own wheels, thus opening him up to being biased or not impartial. Until then, any comment he makes on a wheels aero properties has to be viewed as impartial. Any manufacturer can send a wheel for him to test — if they want his form of testing. I look at him as a wheel type of DC Rainmaker. Would DCR be critiqued the same way for slating a devices reliability or accuracy (which he has on occasion) in his thorough hands on testing parameters? I doubt it.
In terms of tech, manufacturers regard a test by DCR as a way of debugging and improving their products, and a hefty promo channel if the review is good.
Hambini could be to aero wheels or frames what DCR is to tech, and that can only be a good thing for consumers.

magicbastarder · 18-09-2019 2:26pm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Until then, any comment he makes on a wheels aero properties has to be viewed as impartial.

uh, no.

i'm not saying he's not impartial, and i'm not saying he is. i'm saying you do not - and should not - 'have to' view him as impartial.

dermabrasion · 18-09-2019 8:09pm

I have my second R5, and while I really love it. But this video was an epiphany for me.
My 1st R5 started creaking after about 6 months. I left it into cycleways and had the BB replaced. That lasted about a month and they refitted it. I put the bike away over the winter to take it out in Spring and it sounded like two old-ones having sex on a 4-poster bed.
Went into Hollingsworth and they said the spotted a BB flaw, which was under warranty. I was offered an S5 or a replacement R5. I took the R5, which took ages to arrive. Well into mid summer when it arrived. Built it up and the creaking came back by the end of the year. Hollingworth put another BB.
Last year, I went to get a re-spray, and stripped it down. LBS called me to say the BB / bearings were toast and needed to be replaced, which I did after the respray.
This BB has lasted me a year. What ever way it has been set up, it's working.
Couple of notes
1. There is a definitive problem and alway has been this way. Cannot believe they have not solved it. This would put me off getting another, and I really love mine.
2. The bike is otherwise fantastic. It handles so well and I have done serious days on it as well as Race Around Ireland, Vets leagues, Club league and A4 mayhem. It owes me nothing if it was to break tomorrow I got my moneys worth.

hesker · 18-09-2019 11:08pm

dermabrasion wrote: »

1. There is a definitive problem and alway has been this way. Cannot believe they have not solved it. This would put me off getting another, and I really love mine.

If I followed this guy Hambini’s video correctly he’s stating that not only have they not fixed it, they caused the problem in the first place by relaxing tolerances in order to save money.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 18-09-2019 11:13pm

hesker wrote: »

If I followed this guy Hambini’s video correctly he’s stating that not only have they not fixed it, they caused the problem in the first place by relaxing tolerances in order to save money.

Apparently so.

fat bloke · 19-09-2019 11:32am

If true it's extraordinarily and inexplicably silly of them. They're selling premium priced frame in a hotly contested market off the back of nothing whatsoever only public perception of quality. A perception which can very easily and quickly swing the other way.

dermabrasion · 19-09-2019 11:47am

It could be the death of a premium brand. Even-though this problem might have started on the watch of Vroomen and White, the innovation they brought to bikes was avant-garde. They popularised the aero-bike with the soloist, and progressed to further innovations which are now everywhere today. Because they are everywhere, no-one will take poor quality when paying this price.
Since the 2 lads left, the forward momentum of Cervelo seem to have stalled to and are milking the same formula to make money. But quality is clearly a blind spot, or they don't care enough.
I think this problem probably common knowledge with serious retailers and mechanics, that they do not want have a bunch of upset costumers.
Pon can sue Hambini, but he will have a pretty good data to support himself.

dave_o_brien · 19-09-2019 12:31pm

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

He does. But I think that any online presence, especially on YT, these days which is based on, even in part, in contending the position of others and creating any kind of hullabaloo which causes videos to go viral, even in a limited market should be treated with some cynicism.

It would be interesting to see if his YT vids are monetized too.

I don’t have any engineering knowledge and can’t stake a side in the game either way. I just feel that painting him as a dogooder standing up to big business or any similar selfless act is dishonest by omission.

I don't think he really views himself like that though. I don't think he believes he's a hero to the everyman at all.

My take is that he's very eccentric. He's incredibly intelligent and knows more about aerodynamics than most bicycle engineers. When he hears questionable "evidence" he calls it into question, but is lacking in an ability to appreciate nuance.

Where I think he's particularly unusual is the polarity he applies to things. Flo state results showing a favourable aero performance based on a system he believes to be flawed and they're not "limiting the test parameters based on available technology" they're "obviously c**tbag shysters intent on bullsh**ting everyone". Especially when the actual difference in performance is 6 or 7 watts. The vitriol he espouses and the total commitment he has to his beliefs is... well, entertaining but a bit nuts.

That said, Cervelo have relaxed manufacturing tolerances. That's a fact. That is appalling QC behaviour.

dave_o_brien · 19-09-2019 12:33pm

dermabrasion wrote: »

can sue Hambini, but he will have a pretty good data to support himself.

This is the kernel; if you sue him, he has to be wrong in order for you to win. If he really has done all this testing, then he probably won't be wrong, so sue away!

If he hasn't, he's on record for a serious amount of libel.

Paddigol · 19-09-2019 12:45pm

dave_o_brien wrote: »

This is the kernel; if you sue him, he has to be wrong in order for you to win. If he really has done all this testing, then he probably won't be wrong, so sue away!

If he hasn't, he's on record for a serious amount of libel.

Without wanting to get into semantics, I broadly agree with your comment but there is a limit. All the data and testing in the world won't help him prove that any given manufacturer are a "c**tbag shysters intent on bullsh**ting everyone".

There's a difference between 1) saying a claim is incorrect and 2) saying an incorrect claim is evidence of deliberate deception/ fraud.

Muddy waters, that's all I'm saying really. Good luck to the guy.

magicbastarder · 19-09-2019 1:12pm

dave_o_brien wrote: »

This is the kernel; if you sue him, he has to be wrong in order for you to win.

no - if you sue him, he has to be wrong - or to be unable to prove he's right (in a court of law) for you to win.

Acquiescence · 19-09-2019 1:42pm

I'd like to see somebody define a c*ntbag in a libel case!

Hambini vs Cervelo

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