United Ireland discussion thread

Imreoir2 · 11-09-2019 9:44pm #1

The first poll in recent times (if ever?) showing a majority in NI in favour of a United Ireland has been published. The Lord Ashcroft Polls asked a series of questions on unification and Brexit and a summary of the main findings can be found below.

45% said they would vote to stay in the UK, and 46% said they would choose to leave and join the Republic of Ireland – a lead of 51% to 49% for unification when we exclude don’t knows and those who say they would not vote. This is in fact a statistical tie and well within the margin of error. Such a result might also reflect the uncertainty and anxiety surrounding Brexit, the Irish border and its potential effect on life in the province, which could recede when the outcome is settled. Be that as it may, the result underlines what could be at stake in the quest for a workable Brexit solution on the island of Ireland.

The full results can be read here.

It goes without saying that the result is extremely tight and in itself this poll does not mean very much. That said, a poll showing a majority in NI, however slim, in favour of unification is significant and if this result turns our to the the first of a series of polls showing a similar swing to supporting unification then we could be about to enter a process that would ultimatly see a border poll held in NI. Clearly, the swing in support to unification is related to Brexit and as such it could disapate if a solution to Brexit is found. However, Brexit as an issue does not look likely to go away as a factor any time soon as the chaos it is causing to the British political system is only deepening.

Obviously one poll showing very narrow support for unification is not enough to trigger a border poll, but it does beg the question: what would be sufficient? The GFA is vague on this point, but if a trend of support for unification emerges then this is a question that will have to be answered in the not too distant future.

Our government has been heistant to say or do anything on the issue of unification in recent months and years for fear that it will negativly impact the Brexit process, however it would be of paramount importance for us to prepare should a trend of support for unification emerge in NI.

Mr.Nice Guy · 11-09-2019 9:54pm

I'm very pleased to see these poll findings and it would have been unthinkable 4 years ago to see these kinds of numbers. The key point that leaps out is that every age group under 65 shows support, and that indicates the direction of travel.

I think there needs to be a few more polls showing that this is a trend in order to prompt the NI Secretary of State to call a poll. Personally speaking I'd rather let the Scots go first in their referendum. I think should they vote Yes to independence that greatly aids the chances of a reunification poll succeeding, as the Union is pretty much done at that point.

Priority for the Irish government now should be putting in place measures to gear up for a border poll within the coming years, similar to the Brexit preparation that was done.

Infini · 12-09-2019 2:19am

Simply put it's a result of Brexit its the catalyst that's driving this whole thing because ultimately it's forcing people to wake up and choose weather to stay with a failing state and reuniting with a successful one. If Brexit shudders to a halt before crossing the cliff edge I can see things slowing down of course but if they crash out it will fuel the drive for reunfication expecially considering the economic and other advantages of rejoining the EU via reunifiation vs being stuck as part of a 3rd country with a dysfunctional goverment.

That being said the DUP needs to be called out strongly on every illogical and nonsensical argument they make and be made to own the problem of their creation.

Stop moaning ffs · 05-10-2019 10:48am

Infini wrote: »

Simply put it's a result of Brexit its the catalyst that's driving this whole thing because ultimately it's forcing people to wake up and choose weather to stay with a failing state and reuniting with a successful one. If Brexit shudders to a halt before crossing the cliff edge I can see things slowing down of course but if they crash out it will fuel the drive for reunfication expecially considering the economic and other advantages of rejoining the EU via reunifiation vs being stuck as part of a 3rd country with a dysfunctional goverment.

That being said the DUP needs to be called out strongly on every illogical and nonsensical argument they make and be made to own the problem of their creation.

Just on you point about the DUP, they’re being torn apart within their own base and in media over their utterly stupid stance on brexit. They’re done for next GE *if* the other parties can sort their stuff out and make pacts to take their seats.
This today. Worth a read

https://twitter.com/sjamcbride/status/1180379828396154882?s=21

05-10-2019 10:59am

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

They’re done for next GE *if* the other parties can sort their stuff out and make pacts to take their seats.
This today. Worth a read

IF NI was a normal democracy you'd likely be right, but NI democracy is based on Usns and Themuns.

Unionists would vote for the DUP (for fear of SF becoming the biggest party) regardless of what they say or do.

The UUP are too weak to take the step change required to replace the DUP, imo.

Case in point Ian Paisley Jr would have been drummed out of any other party in a proper democracy considering what he got up to, but the DUP know he'll sail into his seat next time.

Stop moaning ffs · 05-10-2019 1:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

IF NI was a normal democracy you'd likely be right, but NI democracy is based on Usns and Themuns.

Unionists would vote for the DUP (for fear of SF becoming the biggest party) regardless of what they say or do.

The UUP are too weak to take the step change required to replace the DUP, imo.

Case in point Ian Paisley Jr would have been drummed out of any other party in a proper democracy considering what he got up to, but the DUP know he'll sail into his seat next time.

Well they’ve all lost seats to the alliance in the last few polls (up 21 points if I remember correctly)
So the hope is they’ll be the majority party next GE. a hope is all sadly

James Brown · 07-10-2019 2:07pm

The main stumbling block is the DUP.
I think the DUP's days are numbered with their behaviour over Brexit. You've got the Nationalists and Unionists but I'd guess a good size of the population just want to get on with things either way and they'll feel the weight of Brexit upon them, this will not bode well for the DUP IMO.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 2:19pm

They are absolutely done for.

https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1179859826740011013?s=21

Imreoir2 · 07-10-2019 2:32pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

They are absolutely done for.

https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1179859826740011013?s=21

I would not be quite so sure. They will probably lose ground to Alliance and the other Unionists parties, but they are far from done for. It depends on Brexit. If we come to a reasonable conclusion at some point in spite of Arlene and co, then the DUP will probably trundle along without any noticable dip in support in the forseeable future.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 2:37pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I would not be quite so sure. They will probably lose ground to Alliance and the other Unionists parties, but they are far from done for. It depends on Brexit. If we come to a reasonable conclusion at some point in spite of Arlene and co, then the DUP will probably trundle along without any noticable dip in support in the forseeable future.

Well not just all the brexit stuff but the RHI report is coming, and the seemingly endless corruption investigations ongoing. They’re going to lose more votes than any other party up there come the GE.

Fionn1952 · 07-10-2019 2:38pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I would not be quite so sure. They will probably lose ground to Alliance and the other Unionists parties, but they are far from done for. It depends on Brexit. If we come to a reasonable conclusion at some point in spite of Arlene and co, then the DUP will probably trundle along without any noticable dip in support in the forseeable future.

There will be a barely noticeable change in the next election. There may be some seats closer than previous elections, but largely it'll be the same old same old. The majority of people in the North don't vote FOR a party, they vote AGAINST a party, along green/orange lines.

I say this as someone who voted SF many times when I lived in the North, not because they were the party that best represented me, but they were the party most likely to prevent the DUP taking a seat.

Sad but true, DUP and SF are pretty much bulletproof, it would take a monumental scandal, beyond anything we've ever seen (and Christ, have we seen a lot) for them to not be returned as the two largest parties.

07-10-2019 2:53pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Well not just all the brexit stuff but the RHI report is coming, and the seemingly endless corruption investigations ongoing. They’re going to lose more votes than any other party up there come the GE.

Yes, I see your logic, but the DUP will simply campaign on a version of...

A vote for anyone other than the DUP is a vote for SF/IRA.

And guess what, it has worked wonders for them in the past, and I don't see that changing no matter how many financial scandals.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 3:22pm

When hundreds of farmers start turning up at DUP hq and pouring thousands of gallons of milk on the pavement cos they can’t sell it and the banks start to repossess their farms, you’ll see change. But they’re already furious with the DUP as it is

Dr Mike Johnston CEO of Dairy Council NI (DCNI) said that current trade tariffs for exporting both raw milk and finished product would be in excess of £300m

“This tariff represents 25% of the value of our entire industry. In a sector where the margin is, at best, 3% or 4%, trade tariffs of that magnitude would wipe out the industry.

marieholmfan · 07-10-2019 3:27pm

While I'd love to see a united Ireland I'm afraid that the decades long economic boom after Brexit makes this very unlikely.

According to Daniel Hannan the Republic is likely to follow the UK out of the EU and back into a federated system of government for these islands (or as he referred to it 'rule from Westminster')

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 3:28pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

While I'd love to see a united Ireland I'm afraid that the decades long economic boom after Brexit makes this very unlikely.

According to Daniel Hannan the Republic is likely to follow the UK out of the EU and back into a federated system of government for these islands (or as he referred to it 'rule from Westminster')

That’s never going to happen.

circadian · 07-10-2019 3:35pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

While I'd love to see a united Ireland I'm afraid that the decades long economic boom after Brexit makes this very unlikely.

According to Daniel Hannan the Republic is likely to follow the UK out of the EU and back into a federated system of government for these islands (or as he referred to it 'rule from Westminster')

Economic boom after brexit? I think everything is pointing to an almost immediate recession in the UK. This post makes no sense at all.

marieholmfan · 07-10-2019 3:43pm

circadian wrote: »

Economic boom after brexit? I think everything is pointing to an almost immediate recession in the UK. This post makes no sense at all.

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Not my opinion; a British MEP Daniel Hannan.

circadian · 07-10-2019 3:51pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Not my opinion; a British MEP Daniel Hannan.

Aye, a Tory MEP vs the opinions of experts. Of course he's going to push this agenda, he's hardly going to say they'll hit a recession.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 3:53pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Not my opinion; a British MEP Daniel Hannan.

With the greatest respect I’d be looking to other sources than Hannan. Any other sources at all.

ancapailldorcha · 07-10-2019 4:17pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Not my opinion; a British MEP Daniel Hannan.

That wouldn't look out of place on Brexit Pornhub.

07-10-2019 5:58pm

If J.R.R. Tolkien was a brexiter (didn't particularly like the Irish apparently) and alive would help, he could have wrote that. Possibly with a few orcs thrown in.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 6:02pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If J.R.R. Tolkien was a brexiter (didn't particularly like the Irish apparently) and alive would help, he could have wrote that. Possibly with a few orcs thrown in.

He was ‘very fond of ireland and some of its people’ (his words) meaning us. He really didn’t like the unionists. He was a devout catholic and often took holidays to Kerry. It was Gaeilge he didn’t like. He couldn’t make hands or tails of it. And him a linguist

Imreoir2 · 07-10-2019 6:06pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

He was ‘very fond of ireland and some of its people’ (his words) meaning us. He really didn’t like the unionists. He was a devout catholic and often took holidays to Kerry. It was Gaeilge he didn’t like. He couldn’t make hands or tails of it. And him a linguist

Not sure that he couldn't make heads or tails of it, just that he did not like how it sounded or how it was structured. No fan of the auld Urú and Shéimhiú was JRR.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 6:08pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Not sure that he couldn't make heads or tails of it, just that he did not like how it sounded or how it was structured. No fan of the auld Urú and Shéimhiú was JRR.

Didn’t stop him stealing Naisc (ring) for Nazgúl

Stop moaning ffs · 07-10-2019 6:23pm

Spotted this in the brexit thread

DUP losing support from even the most extreme types.

Quote:
The Times described Mr Spence as having been "jailed during the Troubles for a crime he is not keen to talk about".

He told the newspaper that he was normally a DUP voter but felt let down over Brexit.

"We are in trouble. I voted Brexit, I voted for the DUP. But how has it benefited us?" he asked.

"The country is in turmoil. We've gone back to where we were in the past.

"If the borders go up the terrorism will come back. We don't want to go back to that."

Heather McCracken comes from a unionist background but told the Times that Arlene Foster was ignoring the views of the business community.

The 44-year-old spent time living outside Northern Ireland but has returned and now runs a gift shop.

"Arlene Foster is not speaking for Northern Ireland," she said.

"She is not speaking about what business needs. She appears blind to that.

"If there is a no-deal Brexit my prices will go up. How will I get goods from my European suppliers? It is very frustrating."

Mrs McCracken said she was envious of progress being made in the Republic of Ireland.

https://www.belfasttel...return-38567878.html

Fionn1952 · 07-10-2019 7:58pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Not my opinion; a British MEP Daniel Hannan.

This isn't even a best case scenario Brexit, this is just a nutjob w*nk fantasy.

Even the most rudimentary of reading shows it up as nonsense. It's essentially, 'well if we keep all the benefits of the EU, and deregulate where it suits us, we'll all be millionaires'.

Could you not apply a little bit of scrutiny and logic before posting nonsense like this? I mean, I'm sure I can find a lunatic who wrote a blog about the moon being made of cheese....I wouldn't introduce it to a discussion about astronomy as a source.

circadian · 07-10-2019 8:28pm

Not to mention written in 2016 before the absolute mess has become clearer.

marieholmfan · 08-10-2019 11:40am

Fionn1952 wrote: »

This isn't even a best case scenario Brexit, this is just a nutjob w*nk fantasy.

Even the most rudimentary of reading shows it up as nonsense. It's essentially, 'well if we keep all the benefits of the EU, and deregulate where it suits us, we'll all be millionaires'.

Could you not apply a little bit of scrutiny and logic before posting nonsense like this? I mean, I'm sure I can find a lunatic who wrote a blog about the moon being made of cheese....I wouldn't introduce it to a discussion about astronomy as a source.

Lookit! We all want our country united! I hope.

But we need to actively persuade for a united Ireland not just wait for demographics (won't work) or hope that Brexit is such a failure that the protestants finally see sense.

eire4 · 08-10-2019 6:26pm

Infini wrote: »

Simply put it's a result of Brexit its the catalyst that's driving this whole thing because ultimately it's forcing people to wake up and choose weather to stay with a failing state and reuniting with a successful one. If Brexit shudders to a halt before crossing the cliff edge I can see things slowing down of course but if they crash out it will fuel the drive for reunfication expecially considering the economic and other advantages of rejoining the EU via reunifiation vs being stuck as part of a 3rd country with a dysfunctional goverment.

That being said the DUP needs to be called out strongly on every illogical and nonsensical argument they make and be made to own the problem of their creation.

I would tend to agree. I think the fiasco that is brexit is driving things in the direction of a united Ireland much quicker then would have otherwise been the case had brexit never existed.

blanch152 · 11-10-2019 1:45pm

Enzokk wrote: »

Interesting, but surely that is not in the spirit of the GFA if it is up to the NI Assembly whether they leave the UK and unite with Ireland instead of the people in a referendum?

The 66% provision could be extended to the GFA referendum.

It would require changes or interpretations to the GFA (perhaps a protocol) but I don't think it would require a referendum to implement that change. Would be hard for the Irish government to resist if they are insisting on it for leaving the customs union.

Enzokk · 11-10-2019 1:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The 66% provision could be extended to the GFA referendum.

It would require changes or interpretations to the GFA (perhaps a protocol) but I don't think it would require a referendum to implement that change. Would be hard for the Irish government to resist if they are insisting on it for leaving the customs union.

And yet we have this from last year,

“Under no circumstances will the Irish government support changing the Good Friday Agreement in the context of Brexit,” Mr Coveney said.

British government cannot change the Belfast Agreement, Coveney says

You could be right, but I don't see how FG and FF get this through without bleeding support to SF in Ireland if they allow these changes to the GFA just to get the UK out of their Brexit bind.

briany · 11-10-2019 1:56pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The cross-community consent is a double-edged sword. If I were the DUP, the question I would ask is whether cross-community assent should also apply to other constitutional issues affecting Northern Ireland.

I am sure that they would be happy to agree to a 66% requirement to leave the customs union if it also meant a 66% requirement to constitutionally leave the UK.

To be honest, I'd give them that. The last thing needed is ploughing on with the 'decisive' mandate of 51-49.

You support the things you support in a democracy, but if there's not a consensus around them, then they'll be sh*te even if you get them.

prawnsambo · 11-10-2019 1:56pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The 66% provision could be extended to the GFA referendum.

It would require changes or interpretations to the GFA (perhaps a protocol) but I don't think it would require a referendum to implement that change. Would be hard for the Irish government to resist if they are insisting on it for leaving the customs union.

The nationalist community would go nuts. It would mean forever being in the UK for them.

Russman · 11-10-2019 2:00pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The nationalist community would go nuts. It would mean forever being in the UK for them.

Yeah, that's never going to happen, cross community support for a UI is a pipe dream (or nightmare). If there was cross community support for anything then arguably we would never have needed the GFA.
Totally different situation to Brexit IMHO.

trashcan · 11-10-2019 2:29pm

Winters wrote: »

if we were to take a particular lesson from the Brexit referendum it would be that.

Rolling out a United Ireland with a 51% result would be chaos.

Ruling it out with a majority in favour (even if it were “only” 51 % ) would be equally, if not more, troublesome, no ?

ToBeFrank123 · 11-10-2019 2:32pm

It would need to be a minimum 55% for a UI vote. 65% etc is too high and would make a UI almost impossible.

Mr.Nice Guy · 11-10-2019 2:48pm

Winters wrote: »

if we were to take a particular lesson from the Brexit referendum it would be that.

Rolling out a United Ireland with a 51% result would be chaos.

This is nonsense.

If 51% support for remaining in the Union is enough for NI to remain in the Union, then 51% support for leaving it is enough to leave it. Unionists don't get to shift the goalposts once it looks like they're not getting their away. We've been down that road too many times.

What would be chaos would be telling Republicans - whose viewpoint would be a majority viewpoint in this particular scenario - hey lads, remember when we said you could achieve your objective of unity through democratic and peaceful means, provided there was consent for it? Yeah, we lied.

There are several lessons that can be learned from Brexit. One would be that a confirmatory second referendum is no bad thing - something Rees Mogg was supportive of as regards Brexit, years before the actual referendum happened.

There could be a situation where people north and are asked to give their consent for the government and other parties to enter into a process of negotiating reunification. And then at the end of this phase, when the details have been worked out and are presented in a document for people to read, the people north and south then vote on whether they approve. That at least deals with the concern that people might not know what they are voting for.

But the idea of raising the bar on what constitutes a democratic majority is a complete non-starter. That would effectively mean that a unionist vote carries more weight than a non-unionist vote. No chance.

votecounts · 11-10-2019 2:54pm

51% is a majority the last time I looked as is 50.000001%, so if in favour there would be a United Ireland and for those that did not want to live here could hop on a boat or plane to Britain, where I'm sure they would be welcomed with open arms:D

briany · 11-10-2019 2:55pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

No I certainly would not. It sets a precedent that the DUP would cling to for a border poll.

If you've seen nothing else in the last 3 and a bit years, you've seen what a political sh*tshow a very close referendum result can create. To be against a supermajority on the veto just because it would create a precedent for a border poll is just putting ideology over pragmatism imo, and that's a recipe for disaster.
If a border poll were to favour a UI, you'd want a fairly broad consensus on it. The alternative is a slippery slope to renewed violence on the island of Ireland.

BarryD2 · 11-10-2019 3:23pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This is nonsense.

If 51% support for remaining in the Union is enough for NI to remain in the Union, then 51% support for leaving it is enough to leave it. Unionists don't get to shift the goalposts once it looks like they're not getting their away. We've been down that road too many times.

It could very well be a disaster, no way I as RepIrl voter who aspires to a UI would vote for such a thing if it was clear there was not substantial support in NI for it. Who'd want 49% of the NI population if they were severely disaffected to the idea - no way. We don't want or need that hassle. Let them sort themselves out up there first, build bridges between the communities instead of trenches as they have been for the past few years. If people like you want a UI, you'll have to work for it by persuading our Unionist brethren that they'd be better off and have nothing to fear in a new state.

Fr Tod Umptious · 11-10-2019 3:29pm

votecounts wrote: »

51% is a majority the last time I looked as is 50.000001%, so if in favour there would be a United Ireland and for those that did not want to live here could hop on a boat or plane to Britain, where I'm sure they would be welcomed with open arms:D

Not picking out this poster as such, but this sort of thing really bugs me.

Many of the same people that decry the results of the Brexit referendum (52-48 or whatever) as being too narrow, not a true reflection, not a mandate etc etc are quite willing to proclaim that 50.05% would be a mandate in a United Ireland vote.

If we have learned anything from Brexit it is that close referendum are frought with danger.

If you think Brexit is bad imagine what a UI deal would be like to try and negotiate.

A UI vote will only be offered once a clear majority is ready for a UI.

votecounts · 11-10-2019 3:37pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

It could very well be a disaster, no way I as RepIrl voter who aspires to a UI would vote for such a thing if it was clear there was not substantial support in NI for it. Who'd want 49% of the NI population if they were severely disaffected to the idea - no way. We don't want or need that hassle. Let them sort themselves out up there first, build bridges between the communities instead of trenches as they have been for the past few years. If people like you want a UI, you'll have to work for it by persuading our Unionist brethren that they'd be better off and have nothing to fear in a new state.

Have the Unionists ever reached out to the nationalists to make them feel better in the UK,no unless of course you count internment, marching in area where they are not wanted, burning the irish flags, bonfires, colluding with security forces to kill them, singing f the pope and f the IRA, won't pass the irish language act, making sure schoolchildren could not go to school, putting universities in protestant areas,burning them out of their houses, i could go on but that is a small amount of things that they have done. So if it is a majority, they can like it like it or leave.

farmchoice · 11-10-2019 3:38pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Not picking out this poster as such, but this sort of thing really bugs me.

Many of the same people that decry the results of the Brexit referendum (52-48 or whatever) as being too narrow, not a true reflection, not a mandate etc etc are quite willing to proclaim that 50.05% would be a mandate in a United Ireland vote.

If we have learned anything from Brexit it is that close referendum are frought with danger.

If you think Brexit is bad imagine what a UI deal would be like to try and negotiate.

A UI vote will only be offered once a clear majority is ready for a UI.

the problem with the brexit referendum wasn't that the outcome was 52-48 its that wat brexit was going to look like was undefined.

it would be like a vote in NI where the question was ''would you like to leave the UK.
and then those voting yes were promised by some they would go into a 32 county united Ireland tricolor and all, whilst others were promised a new federal union with the republic but mainlining the NHS and the queen, whilst others though the IRA were going to come back and take over.

before any referendum there would have to be a plan for the new state that would come into existence afterwards, a whole new constitution set out.

careless sherpa · 11-10-2019 3:39pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Not picking out this poster as such, but this sort of thing really bugs me.

Many of the same people that decry the results of the Brexit referendum (52-48 or whatever) as being too narrow, not a true reflection, not a mandate etc etc are quite willing to proclaim that 50.05% would be a mandate in a United Ireland vote.

If we have learned anything from Brexit it is that close referendum are frought with danger.

If you think Brexit is bad imagine what a UI deal would be like to try and negotiate.

A UI vote will only be offered once a clear majority is ready for a UI.

Not according to the GFA , which is essentially a peace treaty. Can't go rewriting it because 20 years down the road you don't like parts of it

VinLieger · 11-10-2019 3:40pm

votecounts wrote: »

Have the Unionists ever reached out to the nationalists to make them feel better in the UK,no unless of course you count internment, marching in area where they are not wanted, burning the irish flags, bonfires, colluding with security forces to kill them, singing f the pope and f the IRA, won't pass the irish language act, making sure schoolchildren could not go to school, putting universities in protestant areas,burning them out of their houses, i could go on but that is a small amount of things that they have done. So if it is a majority, they can like it like it or leave.

So your refusing to take the high road and would instead like to play in the mud with the DUP and use exactly the same tactics as them?

It may make you feel good for 5 minutes but the repercussions would be disastrous, think with your head not your heart.

briany · 11-10-2019 3:45pm

VinLieger wrote: »

So your refusing to take the high road and would instead like to play in the mud with the DUP and use exactly the same tactics as them?

It may make you feel good for 5 minutes but the repercussions would be disastrous, think with your head not your heart.

This is exactly what I'd be worried about - do to the British Unionists what they did to the Irish Nationalists and rest in the knowledge that turn about is fair play. That would be the easy path, though, and would only lead to problems. In a UI, you must have peace and reconciliation between both sides, otherwise there's no point to the thing. A UI is too high a price to pay if riots are kicking off in Belfast and bombs are going off in Dublin.

cameramonkey · 11-10-2019 3:48pm

VinLieger wrote: »

So your refusing to take the high road and would instead like to play in the mud with the DUP and use exactly the same tactics as them?

It may make you feel good for 5 minutes but the repercussions would be disastrous, think with your head not your heart.

We need to be fair and honest with the Unionist something they never were with Irish people in the six counties. If you continually back down to a bully they will continue to bully, until the Unionists realise that their sectarian bigotry is not acceptable they will continue. Its like the whites in South Africa until someone shouted stop they kept it up to the bitter end. Placating bad behavior means more of it.

cameramonkey · 11-10-2019 3:49pm

briany wrote: »

This is exactly what I'd be worried about - do to the British Unionists what they did to the Irish Nationalists and rest in the knowledge that turn about is fair play. That would be the easy path, though, and would only lead to problems. In a UI, you must have peace and reconciliation between both sides, otherwise there's no point to the thing. A UI is too high a price to pay if riots are kicking off in Belfast and bombs are going off in Dublin.

So you would prefer to give way to terrorist than respect the democratic right of people for a UI. fair enough.

blanch152 · 11-10-2019 3:49pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

Not according to the GFA , which is essentially a peace treaty. Can't go rewriting it because 20 years down the road you don't like parts of it

Treaties are rewritten all the time.

The European Treaties have been rewritten several times, getting rid of unanimity and bringing in qualified majority voting being a similar example of changing the voting rules.

VinLieger · 11-10-2019 3:54pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

So you would prefer to give way to terrorist than respect the democratic right of people for a UI. fair enough.

Thats a pathetic strawman, nobody suggested such a thing, your the one bringing in terrorisim and saying we should be standing up to them cus they are bullies.

This exact kind of thinking will lead to the abject failure of a UI, they cant be the enemy you want them to be forever, someday you will have to accept them as your countrymen like it or not and until you can do that why should they?

Be the bigger person

votecounts · 11-10-2019 3:56pm

Not looking for any payback, just stating that if there is a majority in favour of a United Ireland, so be it. That's whats the GFA states or are going to rewrite this 21 year international agreement voted for by both parts of this Island just to apppease some unionists. If they are so fond of democracy especially when they were the majority as they claim to be, they will have to live with it.

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