Rolling stock for Dart+ expansion

Sam Russell · 05-01-2021 2:00pm

highdef wrote: »

The following looks like a possible decent candidate. Same guage and 1500v DC. Just launched in Melbourne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Capacity_Metro_Trains

Is the gauge a major issue? [In a manufacturing sense]

It is 1.6 m rather than 4ft 8.5 inches (1.4351 m) which is just 16.5 cm or 6.5 inches, or 3.25 inches either side. People put spacers in cars of this sort of dimensions - [I presume to make them go faster].

highdef · 05-01-2021 2:05pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is the gauge a major issue? [In a manufacturing sense]

It is 1.6 m rather than 4ft 8.5 inches (1.4351 m) which is just 16.5 cm or 6.5 inches, or 3.25 inches either side. People put spacers in cars of this sort of dimensions - [I presume to make them go faster].

Well as it's the same gauge, it could be an off-the-shelf product, thereby possibly reducing cost and/or reducing production and delivery.

Sam Russell · 05-01-2021 2:09pm

highdef wrote: »

Well as it's the same gauge, it could be an off-the-shelf product, thereby possibly reducing cost and/or reducing production and delivery.

I know that. The question is in reference to the standard gauge designs.

Is it a trivial change to the bogies or does it entail a whole level of re-engineering - for example does it affect the performance of the train - for example the ability to take curves? I am not considering cost in this - purely engineering.

highdef · 05-01-2021 2:24pm

One of the things that has been mentioned many a time on these forums is that our non "standard" gauge mean our options are not as good as they could be.
So when I spotted this new rolling stock with the same gauge as Ireland and also running on overhead 1500v DC, it struck me as something that could be an option for Ireland. At 3,140mm wide, they would be OK for Irish loading gauge but unsure of the combination of that plus the 24.65m length of some of the carriages might make them too big. I wouldn't have the expertise to know that.

Sam Russell · 05-01-2021 2:27pm

highdef wrote: »

One of the things that has been mentioned many a time on these forums is that our non "standard" gauge mean our options are not as good as they could be.
So when I spotted this new rolling stock with the same gauge as Ireland and also running on overhead 1500v DC, it struck me as something that could be an option for Ireland. At 3,140mm wide, they would be OK for Irish loading gauge but unsure of the combination of that plus the 24.65m length of some of the carriages might make them too big. I wouldn't have the expertise to know that.

I see that, but my question was an engineering one. Most of the prospective suppliers work with standard gauge - so I assume the Irish gauge should not be a problem, particularly if the order is big enough.

highdef · 05-01-2021 2:34pm

I don't know the answer to that but historically, some people here considered the Irish gauge to be an issue when trying to order rolling stock. Perhaps with the advancements in technology, that is no longer an issue. Maybe some more knowledgeable folk here could share some info?

Sam Russell · 05-01-2021 3:35pm

highdef wrote: »

The following looks like a possible decent candidate. Same guage and 1500v DC. Just launched in Melbourne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Capacity_Metro_Trains

Would they work for the Metrolink project?

Would the tunnel need to be bigger?

L1011 · 06-01-2021 9:10am

Metrolink is going to be 1485mm.

An Australian specialist manufacturer is not likely to be price competitive in a tender for what is basically an off the shelf metro system

As for the gauge being an issue - engineering wise it's not hard to overcome, but it makes the order become custom. This massively puts up the price particularly for small orders like we did through the 90s.

Sam Russell · 06-01-2021 11:28am

L1011 wrote: »

Metrolink is going to be 1485mm.

An Australian specialist manufacturer is not likely to be price competitive in a tender for what is basically an off the shelf metro system

As for the gauge being an issue - engineering wise it's not hard to overcome, but it makes the order become custom. This massively puts up the price particularly for small orders like we did through the 90s.

The price will govern who gets the deal.

Although the gauge for Metrolink is set as Standard Gauge, there is no mix with Luas infrastructure at present, but there is a plan to extend to Sandyford. The advantage to go with 1.6m gauge would be the ability to mix Metro and Dart trains.

There are political reasons not to want to do that, and cost reasons. The cost would be mitigated if the order for rolling stock was large enough. The political reasons are for another thread.

loyatemu · 06-01-2021 11:42am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The advantage to go with 1.6m gauge would be the ability to mix Metro and Dart trains.

Metrolink is going to automatic and driverless, there's no benefit in mixing Dart and Metro, they'll be completely separate systems.

Sam Russell · 06-01-2021 12:02pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Metrolink is going to automatic and driverless, there's no benefit in mixing Dart and Metro, they'll be completely separate systems.

That is true.

highdef · 06-01-2021 12:31pm

L1011 wrote: »

Metrolink is going to be 1485mm.

An Australian specialist manufacturer is not likely to be price competitive in a tender for what is basically an off the shelf metro system

As for the gauge being an issue - engineering wise it's not hard to overcome, but it makes the order become custom. This massively puts up the price particularly for small orders like we did through the 90s.

The manufacturer for the Australian order was Chinese so price could be competitive but I can't imagine a large and expensive order going to China when we have had no history or experience with Chinese rolling stock before.

Sam Russell · 06-01-2021 12:59pm

highdef wrote: »

The manufacturer for the Australian order was Chinese so price could be competitive but I can't imagine a large and expensive order going to China when we have had no history or experience with Chinese rolling stock before.

We have bought dodgy trains before that are retired early, so I think experience might not be always a good point.

L1011 · 06-01-2021 2:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The price will govern who gets the deal.

Although the gauge for Metrolink is set as Standard Gauge, there is no mix with Luas infrastructure at present, but there is a plan to extend to Sandyford. The advantage to go with 1.6m gauge would be the ability to mix Metro and Dart trains.

There are political reasons not to want to do that, and cost reasons. The cost would be mitigated if the order for rolling stock was large enough. The political reasons are for another thread.

There is absolutely nothing that is going to change Metrolink to 1600mm.

densification · 11-06-2021 5:17pm

Rumour is we’ll be getting Alston Xtrapolis (Battery) EMUs. (Hassard Stacpoole on Twitter).
Hopefully they’ll be more reliable than previous alstom emus...

Surprised it wasn’t Bombardier Aventras (Crossrail) or Siemens (Thameslink). They both make 8 car 160m units with decent acceleration.

Melbourne are getting some 1600mm Alstoms so they could be quite similar although they have 3x doors per carriage length

dublinman1990 · 12-06-2021 2:24am

densification wrote: »

Rumour is we’ll be getting Alston Xtrapolis (Battery) EMUs. (Hassard Stacpoole on Twitter).
Hopefully they’ll be more reliable than previous alstom emus...

Surprised it wasn’t Bombardier Aventras (Crossrail) or Siemens (Thameslink). They both make 8 car 160m units with decent acceleration.

Melbourne are getting some 1600mm Alstoms so they could be quite similar although they have 3x doors per carriage length

The Railway Magazine article snippet on Pocketmags.com is reporting that these Alstom carriages will be delivered to IÉ as a mix of 5 and 10 car hybrid units. Oh my goodness. That might mean that IÉ will have to extend the existing DART platforms further to cater for a extra 2 DART carriages per platform per station. These guys were responsible for building the unreliable 8200 class DART units from years ago. Also; would these carriages be like the same type that are used for revenue earning service in South Africa as these trains are described and sold as suburban trains going from Alstom's official website? I do think it's good that the NTA & IÉ have stuck with Alstom for this order as they have supplied them with trams for the Luas for many years since 2004 up until very recently for the BXD Line to Broombridge.

highdef · 12-06-2021 9:16am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The Railway Magazine article snippet on Pocketmags.com i

How do I get to that article snippet via the link your provided? I'm brought to a page of various online magazines that I'm prompted to purchase should I want to read any of them.

loyatemu · 12-06-2021 1:00pm

densification wrote: »

Hopefully they’ll be more reliable than previous alstom emus...

they were built in 1999, that was quite a long time ago.

Peregrine · 12-06-2021 2:03pm

It's worth noting that it's articulated.

Also refers to 750 carriages. Jim Meade also said 750 a few months back.

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The Railway Magazine article snippet on Pocketmags.com is reporting that these Alstom carriages will be delivered to IÉ as a mix of 5 and 10 car hybrid units. Oh my goodness. That might mean that IÉ will have to extend the existing DART platforms further to cater for a extra 2 DART carriages per platform per station. These guys were responsible for building the unreliable 8200 class DART units from years ago. Also; would these carriages be like the same type that are used for revenue earning service in South Africa as these trains are described and sold as suburban trains going from Alstom's official website? I do think it's good that the NTA & IÉ have stuck with Alstom for this order as they have supplied them with trams for the Luas for many years since 2004 up until very recently for the BXD Line to Broombridge.

10 cars the same length as current ones would be crazy and would not only require extending current platforms but would also make DART+ Tunnel more expensive. Shorter cars, maybe.

Existing DARTs are around 20-21m per car. An 8 car set is 160-170m. The Xtrapolis 2.0 being used in Melbourne is almost 24m per car. A 10 car set would be almost 240m with a capacity of 2,000 passengers

They might be recycling the Xtrapolis UK they used to unsuccessfully bid for Thameslink. They were under 16m per car.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/alstom-unveils-xtrapolis-uk/34424.article

densification · 12-06-2021 9:58pm

Peregrine wrote: »

It's worth noting that it's articulated.

Also refers to 750 carriages. Jim Meade also said 750 a few months back.

They might be recycling the Xtrapolis UK they used to unsuccessfully bid for Thameslink. They were under 16m per car.

I'd guess that the 750 figure includes the 41 ICRs and new enterprise fleet as the Dart+ website still says 600 units.

I can see why Thameslink went with Siemens... Much more aesthetically pleasing

Peregrine · 12-06-2021 10:19pm

densification wrote: »

I'd guess that the 750 figure includes the 41 ICRs and new enterprise fleet as the Dart+ website still says 600 units.

I can see why Thameslink went with Siemens... Much more aesthetically pleasing

Just checked and he said 600 carriages at the Oireachtas Transport Committee in February and then 750 electric carriages in this article in April. 750 was also mentioned at an event in March.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/light-at-end-of-lockdown-tunnel-for-iarnrod-eireann-boss-jim-meade-lc6csf2f7

I doubt aesthetics had much to do with it. In fact, I think it was the articulation and the resulting axle load which led to Alstom's disqualification in the early stages.

densification · 12-06-2021 10:53pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Just checked and he said 600 carriages at the Oireachtas Transport Committee in February and then 750 electric carriages in this article in April. 750 was also mentioned at an event in March.

I doubt aesthetics had much to do with it. In fact, I think it was the articulation and the resulting axle load which led to Alstom's disqualification in the early stages.

If the units will be 5 car instead of 4 car that would account for the extra 25% figure without actually having more capacity.

I was half joking with the aesthetics comment but I do think the Siemens class 700 are a lot more elegant.

I think RailUsersIre said IÉ ruled out articulated carriages (not 100% sure though). I'd still be surprised if we got them as we've never had any before (i think)

Peregrine · 12-06-2021 11:03pm

densification wrote: »

If the units will be 5 car instead of 4 car that would account for the extra 25% figure without actually having more capacity.

I was half joking with the aesthetics comment but I do think the Siemens class 700 are a lot more elegant.

I think RailUsersIre said IÉ ruled out articulated carriages (not 100% sure though). I'd still be surprised if we got them as we've never had any before (i think)

I think you may be spot on here.

IE 222 · 12-06-2021 11:43pm

Can't see them going for anything beyond 170m. What benefit would going for 5/10 car sets over 4/8 offer. The operating and maintenance costs will increase significantly.

densification · 12-06-2021 11:50pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Can't see them going for anything beyond 170m. What benefit would going for 5/10 car sets over 4/8 offer. The operating and maintenance costs will increase significantly.

The tender says they must be 160-168m coupled up. Anything longer would require platform extensions and make DU more expensive. (You can cram a thousand commuters onto a current dart)

I suppose a benefit of more carriages would be more doors (20 per 160m train vs current 16) although I would’ve preferred something similar to the the Class 345 (crossrail) with 3 doors per carriage length.

Thrashssacre · 13-06-2021 12:13am

I'm taking it that it's definitely not the city duplex models, for a double deck car they don't look overly tall would they fit under the bridges here??

Thrashssacre · 13-06-2021 12:17am

I know this isn't exactly that important, but their physical design looks very outdated, uninspiring and bland compared to Alot of similar new units.

Peregrine · 13-06-2021 12:24am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I know this isn't exactly that important, but their physical design looks very outdated, uninspiring and bland compared to Alot of similar new units.

Which one are you looking at?

This will probably be a new model anyway.

IE 222 · 13-06-2021 12:25am

densification wrote: »

The tender says they must be 160-168m coupled up. Anything longer would require platform extensions and make DU more expensive. (You can cram a thousand commuters onto a current dart)

I suppose a benefit of more carriages would be more doors (20 per 160m train vs current 16) although I would’ve preferred something similar to the the Class 345 (crossrail) with 3 doors per carriage length.

Yeah the whole depot would need a complete redesign as well and parts of that where struggling to cater for 168m lengths if I remember correctly.

Bigger doors will do the same job. Extra wheels, bodies, components, seats, lights ect will massively outweigh any benefits of a few extra doors. The extra doors is extra maintenance as well.

IE 222 · 13-06-2021 12:27am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I'm taking it that it's definitely not the city duplex models, for a double deck car they don't look overly tall would they fit under the bridges here??

Definitely wont be double deckers.

densification · 13-06-2021 12:37am

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah the whole depot would need a complete redesign as well and parts of that where struggling to cater for 168m lengths if I remember correctly.

Bigger doors will do the same job. Extra wheels, bodies, components, seats, lights ect will massively outweigh any benefits of a few extra doors. The extra doors is extra maintenance as well.

I assume Drogheda and Fairview will be getting upgraded while Maynooth will be built from scratch so should be ok.

There’s only so wide you can go with doors (1.7metres?). Having a shorter distance to squeeze through people reduces chances of missing your station. More doors allows shorter dwell times increasing speed and throughput. As I said my preference would be for fewer but longer carriages but this is what IÉ have chosen!

Thrashssacre · 13-06-2021 12:39am

Peregrine wrote: »

Which one are you looking at?

This will probably be a new model anyway.

The Melbourne ones but had a look at the newlt delivered South African ones and there certainly an improvement.

Peregrine · 16-06-2021 10:35pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

The Melbourne ones but had a look at the newlt delivered South African ones and there certainly an improvement.

The X'Trapolis 100 is an older design. We won't be getting that. Melbourne are moving to the newer 'X'Trapolis 2.0'. Interestingly, they just placed the order last month.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction-and-rolling-stock/victoria-to-buy-updated-xtrapolis-emus/59146.article

I think we'd be the first BEMU customer for the X'Trapolis though. Alstom's first BEMU contract was signed in 2020 and will enter service in Germany in 2022.

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2020/2/alstom-signs-first-contract-battery-electric-regional-trains-germany

Pete_Cavan · 15-07-2021 6:48am

IE last week issued a tender for DART+ Rail Fleet Advisory Services;

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/192663/1/0

Are the tenders back yet?

GerardKeating · 15-07-2021 9:48am

The new MersySide Class 777 trains looks nice.

densification · 03-08-2021 7:27pm

Some more info I found on the FAQ section of Dart+ website today.

First of the new BEMUs And EMUs will be delivered in mid 2024 and go into service mid 2025.

The BEMUs will only operate on Dublin-Drogheda.

The first EMUs will first go to existing Dart network to provide additional capacity at peak times. Then Maynooth line, followed by Hazelhatch.

All DARTs will be maintained at Maynooth Depot. It will be a 'centre of excellence'. [side point but this massively strengthens a Maynooth line-Hazelhatch line connection. Would save a lot of out of service running. You could divert all Sligo trains to Heuston which would take ~15 mins off the Journey and make it easier to get to the University there.]

There won't be toilets on board.

The trains will have a sliding step for easy access. Like Class 745 in the UK. This will be great for wheelchairs, buggies, bikes and PRM. There'll be dedicated bays for these groups.

The trains will be walk through with wide open gangways.

22000 Class

Current

28 x 3 car, 25 x 4 car, 10 x 5 Car

Future (2023)

21 x 3 car, 20 x 4 car, 22 x 6 car

lucernarian · 04-08-2021 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117701245#Comment_117701245

To not have toilets on routes like Drogheda-Dublin is simply nuts.

L1011 · 04-08-2021 9:13pm

Maynooth will be challenging enough. Yes, Malahide-Greystones is a longer trip but you can break at at least five stations (Connolly, Pearse, Dun Laoghaire, Killiney, Bray) with toilets on the way and get on another train quite quickly; whereas on the Maynooth line the only toilets are at Maynooth.

Drogheda line has multiple station toilets but I doubt there'll be ten minute headway much of the day!

The Dutch ended up having to retrofit toilets on trains for similar routes.

patrickbrophy18 · 04-08-2021 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707129#Comment_117707129

I would feel bad for those travelling the entirety of the longer journeys if they have a particularly weak or sensitive bladder. While it will still be an uncommon occurrence, some people will very possibly be travelling from Greystones to Drogheda. So, they'll still have to alight at Pearse and Connelly for use of the facilities and resume their journey. I sent the following email to the designated address and haven't heard anything back yet:

"To whom it may concern,

I just noticed on the page "https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/faqs/fleet?page=3" that the new DART+ fleet won't have on-board toilet facilities. With the current journey lengths, I can understand the lack there of. However, some of the new journey lengths will be up to twice that of current journeys especially, when electrification is carried out as far as Drogheda.

So, those with a sensitve bladder or worse, IBS will still have to alight at Pearse or Connolly for use of their facilities before resuming their trip. This holds true if they intend doing the full extent of the longest possible journey e.g. Greystones to Droegheda.

Anyway, if it is not too late, please reconsider this as a requirement for the new fleet."

Given that it's been a week since I sent it, I won't hold my breath for a response at this point.

densification · 05-08-2021 1:24am

If we look at, say, London, having long routes with no toilets is common.

Crossrail is over 110km long. The Central Line is ~70km long. The Metropolitan line is 65km long.

For comparison, Drogheda is ~52km from Connolly.

On an urban metro style service, toilets are a waste of space (imo). Crossrail estimates that having a toilet on board every train would cost them 600 passengers per hour.

Say you have 10 people standing in the space it takes for a disability toilet. Given that you would have 2 toilets per 10 car train, that's 20 people per train. 20 x 15 tph = 300 passengers per hour sacrificed. Much wiser to have large, easily accessible toilets at some busy stations (eg Balbriggan).

bk · 05-08-2021 10:34am

It is funny, only a few years ago I'd have people argue with me that toilets weren't necessary on the intercity bus services (2.5 to 3 hours)!

I believe a general rule of thumb is that journeys up to two hours don't typically need toilets. Most of BE's buses don't have toilets (some newer Expressway do) and journeys of two hours or more wouldn't be unusual on those.

I'd say the number of people who would do Greystones to Drogheda will be incredibly small. I'd be shocked if it was more then a dozen people a day. In reality the vast majority will be Drogheda to City Center or Greystones to City Center. That is a pretty normal commuter distance and it wouldn't be normal to have toilets on a commuter service like that. BE commuter buses certainly don't, hell there are even Dublin Bus routes that long! In some ways people on these services are luckier, they can at least jump off and use a station toilet and get on the next train, something which isn't an option for BE commuter, long distance DB routes.

It doesn't make sense to give up the significant extra passenger space for toilets on these sort of services IMO.

However I'd absolutely agree that IR should do a better job of having more toilets at more stations.

bk · 05-08-2021 10:47am

"The trains will be walk through with wide open gangways."

I'm glad to hear this, I think it makes for more modern desgin, extra passenger space and most importantly better security and sense of security on a train.

"The trains will have a sliding step for easy access. Like Class 745 in the UK. This will be great for wheelchairs, buggies, bikes and PRM. There'll be dedicated bays for these groups."

How will the sliding step work? Will it slide out automatically on every door, at every stop or only something deployed when needed (like on buses)?

loyatemu · 05-08-2021 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709213#Comment_117709213

looking at the 745 - there are certain carriages designated as accessible with extra space for wheelchairs, so I'd guess those doors will have the automatic ramps?

densification · 05-08-2021 12:06pm

On the class 745, the ramp comes out automatically as the doors open. Works on every door, wheelchair zone or not.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBe0u3hdWagA&psig=AOvVaw0EL9Hid1EFwW_FXI3OAg0W&ust=1628247712693000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjhxqFwoTCKiFncndmfICFQAAAAAdAAAAABAq

Peregrine · 05-08-2021 12:18pm

Yeah, they'll be on every door and will be automatic. They just bridge the gap and make it safer and accessible for everyone. Wheelchair users, yes, but people with strollers and other mobility aids, elderly, children, everyone benefits. Crazy to think we didn't have them before.

densification · 05-08-2021 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709706#Comment_117709706

I think the floor usually has to be lower. The 745s have an interior ramp around the wheels. The class 777 which also have the sliding ramp don’t thanks to clever engineering. Note: the Class 777 is articulated and the same car length as our new Darts so hopefully they’ll be similar.

Peregrine · 05-08-2021 1:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709853#Comment_117709853

They had to do platform upgrades across Merseyrail for the Class 777. No idea how what's required here.

https://liverpoollep.org/partner-news/behind-the-scenes-of-the-merseyrail-platform-upgrades/

loyatemu · 05-08-2021 2:12pm

i'd be interested to see how well they work on P5 in Connolly where there's a massive gap between train and platform due to the curve.

Also the cynic in me thinks this is just one more thing for IE to not maintain until most of them don't work anymore - like the fancy passenger info systems on pretty much every train.

L1011 · 05-08-2021 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710314#Comment_117710314

The 29000s work fine, semitemos sdrawkcab gnidaer dnim t'nod uoy fi

loyatemu · 05-08-2021 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710363#Comment_117710363

I've often been in Pearse with trains arriving at both platforms from different directions, both displaying "Malahide" on the front.

Rolling stock for Dart+ expansion

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