Let's all talk about Lewis?

Anjobe · 06-07-2020 12:01pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Your ignorance is blinding, you mentioned the following:

Look up IBM's history in the holocaust. So many companies have a terrible past but I don't see you mentioning them. Pretty much every single manufacturing/production company in a country at war will be used. So say "oh look at Mercedes and Hugo boss" is a complete cop out.

If you realistically speaking singled out and didn't use any company that had a checkered past you wouldn't be able to drive a large percentage of cars or use an awful lot of modern appliances

^^^This, plus the argument that anyone currently associated with these companies bears any responsibility for events that happened in the past, and that those events reflect on them in anyway is complete rubbish.

If anything, Germany provides an example that other countries could follow of how to face up to their history and its legacy.

Richard Hillman · 06-07-2020 5:35pm

I think he has suffered from the radio mics being available to broadcast. Maybe Schumacher was in his car constantly moaning about his car? But for somebody who has had the best car in the sport by a mile over the years, he doesn't half complain a lot about it.

Then there is the American accent...

alchemist33 · 06-07-2020 5:39pm

Needles73 wrote: »

Social justice warrior who is happy to drive for Mercedes and Hugo Boss.....great history those companies have alright

I drive a Ford. Am I supposed to care that its founder had some dodgy views a century ago?

walshb · 06-07-2020 5:41pm

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

06-07-2020 6:20pm

walshb wrote: »

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

Have to disagree on Schumi.

2000 - won Championship, both McLarens ahead of Barrichello.
2001 - won Championship, Coulthard 2nd, Hakkinen had given up.
2002 - dominant (car)
2003 - won Championship followed by a McLaren and a Williams
2004 - Dominant car.
2005 - 3rd. Barrichello 8th
2006 - 2nd. Barrichello 7th

Eddie Irvine insisted that he (Irvine) was as good as any other driver except Schumacher. The Formula certainly suited him but the way racing was then just putting in quali laps til tyres went off a little and you refueled was better in terms of demonstrating sheer driver skill.

d8491prj5boyvg · 15-07-2020 9:18am

walshb wrote: »

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

Schumacher won championships in a Benetton that was not the class of the field. Mika won when in a top Newey car and when Schumacher broke his leg.

Schumacher also helped build the team that created the success. A driver doesn't get handed the car with a bow, moreso back then.

quokula · 15-07-2020 2:16pm

walshb wrote: »

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

Schumacher earned his reputation long before he set foot in a dominant car. He won the 1994 championship in a car that scored a total of 11 points in the hands of his teammates. Two third places, a fifth and a sixth was the sum total of that car's results without Schumacher in the car. With Schumacher in the car, it won nearly every race it finished.

He dominated in 95 once he had a car that was good enough for his team-mate to get up to 4th in the championship. When he switched to Ferrari, they had an unreliable dog of a car but he still won three races, including that legendary wet drive in Spain, while his teammate managed 11 points in the whole year.

In 97 and 98 he managed to take the title fight to the wire against utterly dominant Newey designed cars. Across those two years the other Ferrari won a grand total of zero races.

99 could have been his year as Ferrari had their best car yet, but of course the broken leg cost him. When he did come back at Malaysia that year after recovering, he outqualified the whole field by a second and made the rest of them look like amateurs in the race.

And then we get to 2000 when he was already undisputably the best driver in the sport, but he finally started getting cars that were befitting of his talent, at which point he became unstoppable, even as the FIA regularly switched the rules around to try and make things more competitive.

It's a pretty stark contrast with Lewis who was good but not great before joining Mercedes. He rarely entered the conversation as to who the best driver in F1 was prior to getting a dominant car, that was always between Alonso and Vettel. For example, see the vote here in 2011, where Hamilton was rated fourth, behind Vettel, Alonso and even his own teammate Button who beat him in the same car.

He then ran away from McLaren and got very lucky to end up at a team who used their political clout behind the scenes to force through an engine formula that they were far more prepared for than anyone else, along with the crazy token system that didn't allow anyone to start catching up for a year, at which point the deficit was near insurmountable and any rule changes have generally done more to close down any potential challengers, in stark contrast to the attempts to close up the field when Ferrari were dominant.

And thus Lewis has been winning by default every year since. Except the time when Nico Rosberg beat him to the title in the same equipment of course, but Mercedes soon put the worst driver they could find in the second car to put a stop to that. It's not remotely comparable to Schumacher's achievements.

Anjobe · 15-07-2020 3:43pm

quokula wrote: »

Schumacher earned his reputation long before he set foot in a dominant car. He won the 1994 championship in a car that scored a total of 11 points in the hands of his teammates. Two third places, a fifth and a sixth was the sum total of that car's results without Schumacher in the car. With Schumacher in the car, it won nearly every race it finished.

I don't doubt Schumacher's greatness, but I don't think I would use 1994 as evidence of such. Williams were badly affected by Senna's death that year, and Schumacher only beat Williams' no 2 driver by a single point by crashing into him and taking him out in the final race.

Also, the other Benetton drivers only scored 11 points? I think that is explained by the identities of those drivers and doesn't have much bearing on the qualities of the car.

selectamatic · 15-07-2020 3:54pm

Wasn't there quite a few questions surrounding traction control on Schumacher's 94 Benetton especially after supposed dormant software was found on the cars computer.

Inquitus · 15-07-2020 3:59pm

selectamatic wrote: »

Wasn't there quite a few questions surrounding traction control on Schumacher's 94 Benetton especially after supposed dormant software was found on the cars computer.

Yes there was, they also cheated with their refueling rig that year as well!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy

quokula · 15-07-2020 4:45pm

selectamatic wrote: »

Wasn't there quite a few questions surrounding traction control on Schumacher's 94 Benetton especially after supposed dormant software was found on the cars computer.

There were a lot of accusations thrown around, no evidence was ever found that it was used.

quokula · 15-07-2020 4:49pm

Anjobe wrote: »

I don't doubt Schumacher's greatness, but I don't think I would use 1994 as evidence of such. Williams were badly affected by Senna's death that year, and Schumacher only beat Williams' no 2 driver by a single point by crashing into him and taking him out in the final race.

Also, the other Benetton drivers only scored 11 points? I think that is explained by the identities of those drivers and doesn't have much bearing on the qualities of the car.

Did you watch that season? It only went down to the last race due to some very dubious decisions like multiple race bans for overtaking someone for a moment on the formation lap (Verstappen did the same thing on the formation lap at Austria last weekend and nobody batted an eyelid) - the only times Hill beat Schumacher on track in the entire season were the time that Schumacher was stuck in 5th gear for an entire race, and the Japanese GP where Hill did put in an exceptional drive in wet conditions.

Anjobe · 15-07-2020 4:57pm

quokula wrote: »

Did you watch that season? It only went down to the last race due to some very dubious decisions like multiple race bans for overtaking someone for a moment on the formation lap (Verstappen did the same thing on the formation lap at Austria last weekend and nobody batted an eyelid) - the only times Hill beat Schumacher on track in the entire season were the time that Schumacher was stuck in 5th gear for an entire race, and the Japanese GP where Hill did put in an exceptional drive in wet conditions.

lol...and don't forget Adelaide where Damon would have won as well (and won the championship) if Schumacher hadn't crashed into him, accidentally on purpose.

Anjobe · 15-07-2020 5:31pm

quokula wrote: »

...like multiple race bans for overtaking someone for a moment on the formation lap...

If you actually told the full story on that one it wouldn't support your argument very well, would it?

15-07-2020 5:41pm

Just now saw the thread and was sure it was going to be about kneeling.

Couldn't have picked a better time OP to start an 'ambiguous' /'clickbait' thread imo..

That it's in the Motorsport and not the AH forum wasn't relevant to my thinking.

He must be one of the greats; as otherwise he wouldn't have won so much.

But back to the topic at hand (I've only read the first few posts) he can't be good for the sport currently with all the division he's sowing - on issues that would scarcely affect a man of his upbringing - by expecting everyone to go along with the bs.

That is all

skipper_G · 15-07-2020 5:51pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just now saw the thread and was sure it was going to be about kneeling.

Couldn't have picked a better time OP to start an 'ambiguous' /'clickbait' thread imo..

That it's in the Motorsport and not the AH forum wasn't relevant to my thinking.

He must be one of the greats; as otherwise he wouldn't have won so much.

But back to the topic at hand (I've only read the first few posts) he can't be good for the sport currently with all the division he's sowing - on issues that would scarcely affect a man of his upbringing - by expecting everyone to go along with the bs.

That is all

To be fair, this thread was started 2 years ago

quokula · 15-07-2020 5:53pm

Anjobe wrote: »

If you actually told the full story on that one it wouldn't support your argument very well, would it?

The full story was that he overtook Hill on the formation lap for a moment, gave the place back (something that happens all the time and never warrants any penalty), he was given a stop go penalty but due to some understandable confusion at being given a penalty for something that has never otherwise been penalised in the history of the sport, he ended up serving the penalty a couple of laps later than required, costing him the race win, and then he was also banned for two races for his trouble.

The New York Times describe the full story pretty well, as it was a blatant attempt to stop him running away with the championship.

Michael Schumacher should have seen it coming. It's not that the infraction that got him a two-race ban yesterday from the world Formula One championship was so serious. The worst error committed by Schumacher -- the German driver who is now threatened with seeing the wheels come off a smooth ride to the 1994 world championship -- may be that he simply became too big too fast.

Anjobe · 15-07-2020 5:55pm

quokula wrote: »

The full story was that he overtook Hill on the formation lap for a moment, gave the place back (something that happens all the time and never warrants any penalty), he was given a stop go penalty but due to some understandable confusion at being given a penalty for something that has never otherwise been penalised in the history of the sport, he ended up serving the penalty a couple of laps later than required, costing him the race win, and then he was also banned for two races for his trouble.

The New York Times describe the full story pretty well, as it was a blatant attempt to stop him running away with the championship.

Nope, still not the full story - are you not going to mention the black flag he also ignored (and the real reason he was suspended)?

15-07-2020 5:58pm

skipper_G wrote: »

To be fair, this thread was started 2 years ago

Apologies

I saw 08/07 and never noticed the '18'

Was just about to edit it

Again, apologies

quokula · 15-07-2020 6:01pm

Anjobe wrote: »

Nope, still not the full story - are you not going to mention the black flag he also ignored (and the real reason he was suspended)?

I specifically did mention that he took his penalty a couple of laps later than required. You may call this ignoring a black flag. Anyone reasonable (such as the New York times article I linked) would call it what it was, a slight delay in taking the penalty in the context of the confusion within the team at being penalised for something that multiple drivers do at every race weekend and has never otherwise been penalised.

Anjobe · 15-07-2020 7:31pm

quokula wrote: »

You may call this ignoring a black flag.

Errm, when a driver does not remove himself from the race after receiving a black flag, what should you call it? That is a very serious breach of the regulations, the fact that the original offense that he was having his little hissy fit over was so minor is irrelevant.

Schumacher was certainly the best driver of his generation, with a strong claim to be the best ever. He has an even stronger claim to be the most arrogant, self-entitled, unsportsmanlike F1 driver ever.

donspeekinglesh · 15-07-2020 9:32pm

quokula wrote: »

The full story was that he overtook Hill on the formation lap for a moment, gave the place back

That's deeply misrepresenting what happened. He overtook Hill several times, for significant stretches (this absolutely was not him just nosing ahead by accident), on BOTH formation laps. He was utterly taking the piss, and punishing the blatant rule breaking was completely correct.

TCP/IP · 27-07-2020 5:45pm

This wont end well

Frank Bullitt · 27-07-2020 5:57pm

His "apology" really isn't one.

However, after watching the video, I felt it showed that there is still a lot of uncertainty about the side effects most importantly and how it is going to be funded

What "uncertainty"? Vaccines save lives, end of.

Harika · 27-07-2020 6:02pm

I like Klopp approach when asked about Covid "Ask a doctor not a football trainer"

selectamatic · 27-07-2020 6:07pm

Harika wrote: »

I like Klopp approach when asked about Covid "Ask a doctor not a football trainer"

No one asked Lewis though.

Seems to be a common theme with his public pronouncements.

jelutong · 27-07-2020 7:00pm

About time his employer told him to shut up and concentrate on his job.

Pkiernan · 27-07-2020 7:03pm

If Lewis cares so much about human rights,m why does he race in China and Bahrain?

AMKC · 27-07-2020 8:44pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

If Lewis cares so much about human rights,m why does he race in China and Bahrain?

He does it because that's where the races are and because he is a driver not a politician. I agree he should have kept his mouth shut about this unless he had done research and had real facts about it.

Pkiernan · 27-07-2020 9:09pm

AMKC wrote: »

He does it because that's where the races are and because he is a driver not a politician. I agree he should have kept his mouth shut about this unless he had done research and had real facts about it.

He take a knee, then ignores Chinese concentration camps.
Classy

namloc1980 · 27-07-2020 9:38pm

Bit of a conspiracy theorist is Lewis:

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/lewis-hamilton-f1-nasa-moon-16907995.amp

Anjobe · 28-07-2020 8:23am

namloc1980 wrote: »

Bit of a conspiracy theorist is Lewis:

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/lewis-hamilton-f1-nasa-moon-16907995.amp

According to the Daily Star...:rolleyes:

namloc1980 · 28-07-2020 9:50am

Anjobe wrote: »

According to the Daily Star...:rolleyes:

No according to the video of him bringing this up. Nice deflection though.

Rodney Bathgate · 28-07-2020 9:51am

namloc1980 wrote: »

Bit of a conspiracy theorist is Lewis:

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/lewis-hamilton-f1-nasa-moon-16907995.amp

And a homophobe

Dick Turnip · 28-07-2020 10:20am

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

And a homophobe

Explain? Genuinely curious, has he made a few remarks in the past?

Rodney Bathgate · 28-07-2020 10:24am

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Explain? Genuinely curious, has he made a few remarks in the past?

A pretty well known incident relating to a social media post about his nephew in a dress.

Do a search with your preferred search engine and you can judge for yourself.

the_pen_turner · 28-07-2020 10:40am

i dont know why someone doesnt pull him aside and tell him to cop on. he is damageing what little positivity people have towards him. at the start of his career his actions rightly gave him his bad reputation. then he warmed up t o people in the last few years but now this all this anti rcist and look at me im a victim is pissing off a lot of people.
it is damaging his brand , mercs brand, and f1 in general

TCP/IP · 28-07-2020 10:58am

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i dont know why someone doesnt pull him aside and tell him to cop on. he is damageing what little positivity people have towards him. at the start of his career his actions rightly gave him his bad reputation. then he warmed up t o people in the last few years but now this all this anti rcist and look at me im a victim is pissing off a lot of people.
it is damaging his brand , mercs brand, and f1 in general

Because he is so powerful now and we all know if anybody tried that he would play the race card and poor old me rubbish.

rock22 · 28-07-2020 1:02pm

It is natural that there is a lot of anti Louis Hamilton backlash from racists. I am sure he expected that

pjohnson · 28-07-2020 1:03pm

rock22 wrote: »

It is natural that there is a lot of anti Louis Hamilton backlash from racists. I am sure he expected that

I dont care if its a purple dinosaur named Barney. Any gobshįte spouting anti-vax crap deserves all the backlash they get.

TCP/IP · 28-07-2020 1:09pm

rock22 wrote: »

It is natural that there is a lot of anti Louis Hamilton backlash from racists. I am sure he expected that

What a load of garbage he is a human being like all of us no different at all except he is shouting his mouth off about anti-vax, was caught out and is now is back peddling.

Stick to racing and give over the politics is peoples only ask here.

Anjobe · 28-07-2020 1:22pm

pjohnson wrote: »

I dont care if its a purple dinosaur named Barney. Any gobshįte spouting anti-vax crap deserves all the backlash they get.

TCP/IP wrote: »

What a load of garbage he is a human being like all of us no different at all except he is shouting his mouth off about anti-vax, was caught out and is now is back peddling.

Stick to racing and give over the politics is peoples only ask here.

Stick to criticizing him about the anti-vax stuff then. Posts #142 and #143 don't mention anti-vax but do mention his anti-racism position, and criticizing that is racist I'm afraid.

TCP/IP · 28-07-2020 1:31pm

Anjobe wrote: »

Stick to criticizing him about the anti-vax stuff then. Posts #142 and #143 don't mention anti-vax but do mention his anti-racism position, and criticizing that is racist I'm afraid.

So you just proved my point that anything said about him in a negative light is classed as racism god help the world we live in nowadays.

Anjobe · 28-07-2020 1:41pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

So you just proved my point that anything said about him in a negative light is classed as racism god help the world we live in nowadays.

He posted an anti-vax video. Criticizing that is perfectly valid, and I don't think there has been anyone on here defending that.

Criticizing a man of colour for promoting a campaign to end racial inequality and racial injustice, and for his efforts to get his sport to unite against racism, is racist. Do you really not see that? Ignorance of the issues among people who don't see racism around them much is understandable, but is a large part of the problem.

LiquidZeb · 28-07-2020 2:05pm

Anjobe wrote: »

Stick to criticizing him about the anti-vax stuff then. Posts #142 and #143 don't mention anti-vax but do mention his anti-racism position, and criticizing that is racist I'm afraid.

The only thing fragile white men hate more than a poor black person is a successful black person. They see Lewis Hamilton, a man of colour who has beaten the odds and become the best in a white man's sport. Some white people seem to feel his success is a kick in the teeth and just can't reconcile that a black person is at that level due to their bigotry.

They then find any excuse to lambast him be it over his environmental and racial activism and most recently his poor comments about a vaccine. Sorry lads that black man is still going to be on top and be the best there was. Keep crying.

pjohnson · 28-07-2020 2:10pm

LiquidZeb wrote: »

The only thing fragile white men hate more than a poor black person is a successful black person. They see Lewis Hamilton, a man of colour who has beaten the odds and become the best in a white man's sport. Some white people seem to feel his success is a kick in the teeth and just can't reconcile that a black person is at that level due to their bigotry.

They then find any excuse to lambast him be it over his environmental and racial activism and most recently his poor comments about a vaccine. Sorry lads that black man is still going to be on top and be the best there was. Keep crying.

Pretty much sums up what a previous poster said. Hamilton cant cover up the anti-vax or expect to be immune (pardon the pun) from the criticism because of his race or try to hide behind his race. The fact you immediately jump to playing the race card is hilarious.

The only racism ironically is displayed by you. Do you think only "fragile white men" have an issue with anti-vax? That the only people actually understanding vaccines are white racists or can only racists would be annoyed by his comments? I'm sure people of colour would also be disgusted at his comments and understand how wrong he is.

LiquidZeb · 28-07-2020 2:20pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Pretty much sums up what a previous poster said. Hamilton cant cover up the anti-vax or expect to be immune (pardon the pun) from the criticism because of his race or try to hide behind his race. The fact you immediately jump to playing the race card is hilarious.

The only racism ironically is displayed by you. Do you think only "fragile white men" have an issue with anti-vax? That the only people actually understanding vaccines are white racists or can only racists would be annoyed by his comments? I'm sure people of colour would also be disgusted at his comments and understand how wrong he is.

All I'm saying is that people on the thread leap at the opportunity to criticize and dogpile Lewis at every opportunity they get. Why doesn't vettle or verstappen get the same treatment? I know the reason and so do you.

pjohnson · 28-07-2020 3:07pm

LiquidZeb wrote: »

All I'm saying is that people on the thread leap at the opportunity to criticize and dogpile Lewis at every opportunity they get. Why doesn't vettle or verstappen get the same treatment? I know the reason and so do you.

Have "vettle" or Verstappen said anything anti-vax?

If not then thats why. You can keep bringing race into it but its irrelevant.

LiquidZeb · 28-07-2020 3:16pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Have "vettle" or Verstappen said anything anti-vax?

If not then thats why. You can keep bringing race into it but its irrelevant.

Yeah I misspelled Vettel that's my entire argument dismantled, well done Einstein. This thread existed before the vaccine incident. People saying they don't like him and not elaborating, people mocking his social justice and activist work against systematic racism, ignorance and bigotry suffered by him and millions of other BAME people.

Frank Bullitt · 28-07-2020 5:29pm

Anjobe wrote: »

Stick to criticizing him about the anti-vax stuff then. Posts #142 and #143 don't mention anti-vax but do mention his anti-racism position, and criticizing that is racist I'm afraid.

Must have read them a few times now, can't spot any sort of racism at all in either of them.

Criticizing an anti-racism stance is therefore racist. Serious mental gymnastics going on there.

Let's all talk about Lewis?

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