C.I. Leisure Licence Price increase?

velo.2010 · 30-11-2020 7:38pm #1

I just got an email from C.I. informing me that I can renew my licence for next year. I've paid 50 euro for the past few years, for which I recieved personal accident and third party cover. Apparently, that's all changed and I now have pay an extra 10 euro for the personal accident cover.

Considering there have been very few if any significant leisure events this year, we're now being asked to pay an extra 10 euro for the privilege of personal cover. That seems mad if we're trying to encourage more new membership and stop current members from not renewing. It may 'only be' 10 euro extra, but there is a principle here that leisure members appear to bear the brunt of price increases and/or devalued membership.

I'd like to know who proposed that personal cover for leisure riders be made an 'add on'?

dahat · 30-11-2020 7:56pm

Insurance claims across all areas of society are driving this I'm sure.

I've no real issue with an increase myself given that I'll be renewing for racing that will have the same increase I'd say.

buffalo · 30-11-2020 8:08pm

It may be that a lot of leisure members don't want it, or CI noticed that very few leisure riders were using it, so rather than pass on an increase to all members, made it an option.

velo.2010 · 30-11-2020 8:12pm

The full competition licence price does appear to have been increased, but the leisure licence gets a disproportionately bigger increase for 2021. Making personal cover an 'add on' diminishes the leisure licence.

Raising the price ito 55 euro without any add ons would have been a better call IMO.

NamelessPhil · 30-11-2020 8:18pm

It was raised and approved at the AGM.

velo.2010 · 30-11-2020 8:22pm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

It was raised and approved at the AGM.

I'm aware of that and had seen the proposed fees schedule for 2021. I was wondering who initially proposed it and if the leisure membership are seen as the patsies within Cycling Ireland.

NamelessPhil · 30-11-2020 10:38pm

The CI AGM was a virtual one this year. An email was sent to members and the Annual Report was available online before the event.

I'm not an apologist for CI but only 29.9% of attendees voted against the proposal for the increase in licence fees. I was one of them.

There is no point in complaining online or elsewhere if you didn't attend the meeting or read the documentation. Every year the majority of CI AGM attendees are from a racing background. If every leisure club sent even one nominee they would outvote them.

NBar · 30-11-2020 10:44pm

from looking at what they offer for the €10 more is it not worth it?, its the price of a "substantial meal " these days so can't see a problem with €10 for 12 months

magicbastarder · 30-11-2020 10:54pm

i'm involved with a (non cycling) non-profit, and our insurance costs have gone up 500% over the last few years (would have been 1000% had we not fought hard). my gut reaction is that if you're not happy with the increase, it's not CI you should be annoyed with.

velo.2010 · 30-11-2020 10:56pm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

The CI AGM was a virtual one this year. An email was sent to members and the Annual Report was available online before the event.

I'm not an apologist for CI but only 29.9% of attendees voted against the proposal for the increase in licence fees. I was one of them.

There is no point in complaining online or elsewhere if you didn't attend the meeting or read the documentation. Every year the majority of CI AGM attendees are from a racing background. If every leisure club sent even one nominee they would outvote them.

I don't remember an email but I take your point. Thank you for the details on the vote. I might look at making a submission with suggestions on the leisure membership for the next AGM.

velo.2010 · 30-11-2020 11:02pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm involved with a (non cycling) non-profit, and our insurance costs have gone up 500% over the last few years (would have been 1000% had we not fought hard). my gut reaction is that if you're not happy with the increase, it's not CI you should be annoyed with.

I'm aware of the hit many indoor activity/kids soft play etc. are facing. The leisure licence increase just seemed a bit disproportionate... another renewal and another charge to pay at this time of year! Ah well.

Roadtoad · 30-11-2020 11:20pm

CI must have missed out on a lot of one-day licences from people like me who attend one or two charity events a year.

Aside: Is there really anything in it for the likes of me to pay an annual fee? I cycle a fair bit, on my tod usually, not interested in weekly club spins.

Oberkon · 30-11-2020 11:21pm

NBar wrote: »

from looking at what they offer for the €10 more is it not worth it, its the price of a "substantial meal " these days

Yep, Totally agree - its well worth it .

NamelessPhil · 30-11-2020 11:38pm

Roadtoad wrote: »

CI must have missed out on a lot of one-day licences from people like me who attend one or two charity events a year.

Aside: Is there really anything in it for the likes of me to pay an annual fee? I cycle a fair bit, on my tod usually, not interested in weekly club spins.

The one day licence will be called the "Event Licence" and will cost €10 in 2021, €20 for competitive events. Five events and you've paid for a leisure licence.

Morris Garren · 01-12-2020 12:00am

Its only a tenner and well worth it if cycling regularly. The average bike these days is about 200 times the cost of it- at least.

Wishbone Ash · 01-12-2020 12:30am

NamelessPhil wrote: »

...There is no point in complaining online or elsewhere if you didn't attend the meeting or read the documentation. Every year the majority of CI AGM attendees are from a racing background. If every leisure club sent even one nominee they would outvote them.

Reminds me of my 15 years as a branch secretary of a trade union. 500 members but we'd be lucky to get 25 to attend an AGM. Of those, 15 or so would have to be elected to the new committee. Yet, the whingers on the ground, who never bother their arse attending any AGM would go around complaining about the 'same old faces' on the committee ever year. :rolleyes:

Cee-Jay-Cee · 01-12-2020 1:40am

Last year I signed up for automatic renewal for 5years at a reduced rate. I haven’t seen anything saying I have to pay extra next year.

Weepsie · 01-12-2020 2:21am

Morris Garren wrote: »

Its only a tenner and well worth it if cycling regularly. The average bike these days is about 200 times the cost of it- at least.

No it's not, and certainly not for many thousands of leisure cyclists.

CramCycle · 01-12-2020 3:27am

Is there any difference in what you get for your cover this year compared to last year. I know the excess and other such things had gotten larger over the last few years as an attempt to nip the increasing prices in the bud.

I was at the AGM, memory is fuzzy but the majority seemed to be in favour, there was very little in the chat function going against it. A large number of clubs would have decided on what way to vote before hand and won't change their mind on the day so I was surprised it carried with such little opposition.

ruffmut · 01-12-2020 9:42am

I was going to renew my licence yesterday and spotted this increase alright. I was going to add the insurance add on for peace of mind but spotted this in the small print " This will cover you from time of purchase to the end of the calendar year (31st December)".

I have asked CI to clarify this statement. If I renew before the end of 2020 does the personal accident expire on the 31st Dec 2020.

CramCycle · 01-12-2020 10:04am

ruffmut wrote: »

I was going to renew my licence yesterday and spotted this increase alright. I was going to add the insurance add on for peace of mind but spotted this in the small print " This will cover you from time of purchase to the end of the calendar year (31st December)".

I have asked CI to clarify this statement. If I renew before the end of 2020 does the personal accident expire on the 31st Dec 2020.

Good idea to ask for clarity but this typically means from the date of purchase to the end of the calendar year the license relates to, un this case it would be 2021.

NamelessPhil · 01-12-2020 10:26am

The main problem is CI's fee structure.

- Leisure Licence fees were unchanged for the last three years.
- The motion included increases in the One Day licence to €10 for Leisure members and €20 for Competitive events. I'm all for that increase as unattached participants should pay more than licence holders.
- There was no room for discussion - the whole fee structure had to be adopted or rejected.
- In my opinion CI should separate leisure fees from Competition fees and vote on them individually.
- CI sees licence fees as a significant funding stream and it is going to be very difficult to have a discussion at an AGM as the Board can always state that they must act in CI's best interest and maintain an income stream.

cletus · 01-12-2020 10:52am

Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this question, but can anybody lay out the advantages in paying a leisure cyclist membership to the CI?

ruffmut · 01-12-2020 11:04am

cletus wrote: »

Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this question, but can anybody lay out the advantages in paying a leisure cyclist membership to the CI?

The only thing I can see is that you get third party insurance and if you pay the extra €10 personal accident cover. Otherwise there is no other value unless you do a lot of events, then you do not need to take out a one day licence.

Paul Kiernan · 01-12-2020 11:36am

cletus wrote: »

Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this question, but can anybody lay out the advantages in paying a leisure cyclist membership to the CI?

Here's one -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7166305/Cyclist-Robert-Hazeldean-left-bankrupt-yoga-teacher-Gemma-Brushett-knocked-London.html

lissard · 01-12-2020 11:46am

If you are unattached to a club there is very little advantage in purchasing leisure membership. In the past I have simply paid the extra 1 day license for the various leisure events (at the time it was €5 per event). You'd need to do 10 events in the year to make the license worthwhile, I'd have been lucky to do 5 so it was a no-brainer. I'm not even sure the insurance covers you when you are out on your own so even that benefit is moot. As a club member however it's a pre-requisite and to be fair €50 over the course of a year is not much when you get out every week.

MojoMaker · 01-12-2020 11:49am

Does CI leisure licence with insurance add-on cover you for commuting?

NamelessPhil · 01-12-2020 11:52am

AFAIK any licence covers you once you're out on your bike "training" whether that is as an individual, group ride or commute.

CramCycle · 01-12-2020 11:54am

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Here's one -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7166305/Cyclist-Robert-Hazeldean-left-bankrupt-yoga-teacher-Gemma-Brushett-knocked-London.html

Off topic but his legal team should be in under the thumb for not advising him to counter claim in this scenario, surely they failed in their professional duties to not recognise the risk.

lissard · 01-12-2020 11:57am

4k damages and 100k of fees illustrates just how rotten the legal system is.

ednwireland · 01-12-2020 11:59am

velo.2010 wrote: »

I don't remember an email but I take your point. Thank you for the details on the vote. I might look at making a submission with suggestions on the leisure membership for the next AGM.

theres a leisure commission i m sure they would love to here your views. leisure@cyclingireland.ie
the agm is very race oriented,

buffalo · 01-12-2020 1:17pm

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Here's one -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7166305/Cyclist-Robert-Hazeldean-left-bankrupt-yoga-teacher-Gemma-Brushett-knocked-London.html

"ploughed into her at up to 15mph"

Christ, that must have been some impact!

I guess they measure speed differently in the UK compared to here, because I know whenever a 30kph (18mph) limit is mooted nobody is able to drive at such a slow speed.

mamax · 01-12-2020 1:38pm

Some of our members have said they are not renewing for 2021 because of the price, it was €20 a few years ago.
To get insurance they are taking out a triathalon ireland training licence with apparently the same type of cover for €25.
Some people have no loyalty to clubs and have spent a lot of 2020 cycling on their own so personally I feel CI have made a mistake on this one and should have dropped the price to encourage more to cycle.

Paddigol · 01-12-2020 2:00pm

lissard wrote: »

4k damages and 100k of fees illustrates just how rotten the legal system is.

It really doesn't. It shows what happens when two parties litigate for 4 years, one party engaging a team of professionals to present their case, the other deciding that legal expertise wasn't worth the outlay. Whereas he now seems to extol the virtue of the 'legal system' having belatedly decided to value the service of professionals.

Some people just want their 'day in court'.

What constitutes 'up to' £100k is also dubious given the rag that published the story. I presume he has the option of appealing, either the verdict or just the costs order.

Ultimately, people are entitled to sue, and people are entitled to chose whether to engage professional representation. AND, if they're still not satisfied, they're entitled (presumably) to appeal the decision to a higher court.

Again, I'd be sceptical of basing any opinion on the content of a click-bait, headline focussed rag like the Daily Mail which provides zero context of the amount of time spent on the case/ court appearances etc. I certainly wouldn't be holding this case up as evidence of a rotten legal system.

What it does demonstrate is the value of having insurance.

Roadtoad · 01-12-2020 2:16pm

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Here's one -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7166305/Cyclist-Robert-Hazeldean-left-bankrupt-yoga-teacher-Gemma-Brushett-knocked-London.html

He has that more or less covered by a GoFundMe appeal. (61k GBP).

CramCycle · 01-12-2020 2:43pm

mamax wrote: »

Some of our members have said they are not renewing for 2021 because of the price, it was €20 a few years ago.
To get insurance they are taking out a triathalon ireland training licence with apparently the same type of cover for €25.
Some people have no loyalty to clubs and have spent a lot of 2020 cycling on their own so personally I feel CI have made a mistake on this one and should have dropped the price to encourage more to cycle.

That's quite decent, so long as you have no intention of doing any events its far better value if the T&Cs of the insurance are the same.

If you are planning events, it goes the other way almost instantly, as your TI insurance won't allow you entry to a CI event.

ednwireland · 01-12-2020 3:30pm

mamax wrote: »

Some of our members have said they are not renewing for 2021 because of the price, it was €20 a few years ago.
To get insurance they are taking out a triathalon ireland training licence with apparently the same type of cover for €25.
Some people have no loyalty to clubs and have spent a lot of 2020 cycling on their own so personally I feel CI have made a mistake on this one and should have dropped the price to encourage more to cycle.

totally agree. i suspect our own club membership will drop again this year it drops a few per cent every time the price goes up as people still cycle with their mates on a sunday morning club or no club. i dont think CI understand leisure cycling at all (guess most people go out and ride their bikes and dont care about clubs, sportives or "benefits" provided by cycling Ireland like.

they just see the CI membership as something they dont actually need as the price goes up.

Large bottle small glass · 01-12-2020 4:39pm

If I've read it right it's €60 for insurance for the year. For that you get
* Third Party cover
*Personal accident cover

In terms of TP cover, if it is necessary for cycling should I also get it for when I'm walking, running? For a cycling behaving reasonably(not cycling on footpaths, heeding lights etc is the TP risk worth insuring given the €500 excess?

In the real world given the "value" of personal injuries, almost irrespective of circumstances most motor insurers would be just delighted if you didn't claim against them in the event of an incident with an insured vehicle.

In how many likely accidents will cyclist be completed to blame and TP loss be over €560 and for cyclist not to be also injured? If cyclist is injured that "leverage" should be enough in most circumstance for TP claim to disappear.

As for the Personal accident cover, with an excess of €250, a limit of €2500 and a max loss of earning of 13 weeks @ €150 it really is a sh1t product.

Some of the worst insurances tend to be low cost add on ones. I remember reading a car hire personal accident cover while bored in an airport. It was designed to be cheap enough to add it on but had excesses and limits to make it unlikely only a tiny number would ever claim.

velo.2010 · 01-12-2020 5:20pm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

- In my opinion CI should separate leisure fees from Competition fees and vote on them individually.

There was a discussion on here about similar when the Leisure Licence went up in price a few years ago. It may have been brought up at the AGM but was not acted on. I would bring up this point in correspondance with C.I.

edit; Just found this from a discussion in 2017. Quote CheGuedara... "Was involved in an attempt to establish a leisure commission a number of years ago but it never really got off the ground for various reasons. Was definitely not helped by a provincial committee (Munster) led by a chairman at the time whose attitude was 'I don't know anything about leisure cycling and don't want to know anything about leisure cycling'. Verbatim quote from a CM AGM at the time."

The commision did eventually get off the ground in 2018, but if that attitude is still present today among senior provincial committee members, then the Leisure side of C.I. is still seen as the poor cousin to the racing side. A shame really.

For the record, I had a full competition licence and club memebership for several years. From 2015 to 2017, I didn't do much cycling but let both memberships effectively auto-renewal. I subsequently dropped both and took out the leisure license with the personal cover for training being the main appeal. Making it an added extra might appeal to some (keeping the cost of renewal down) but really only devalues the standard Leisure Licence.

velo.2010 · 01-12-2020 5:23pm

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

As for the Personal accident cover, with an excess of €250, a limit of €2500 and a max loss of earning of 13 weeks @ €150 it really is a sh1t product.

It'd been used by several Boardsies for physio/dental treatments and the like.

mamax · 01-12-2020 5:57pm

So what it boils down to for me is the leisure membership is worthless unless you are showing loyalty to a club, I already have personal accident cover so I think I'll give it a miss next year, really disapointed cycling ireland didn't reduce the price of all licences for 2021 seeing as most of 2020 was fecked up with covid restrictions.

CramCycle · 01-12-2020 6:10pm

A club mate got it after he crashed, covered his treatment, sick pay on top of his out of work pay. Not much but its better than nothing and sorted within a few days. Several clubs will not allow you on club spins without it as you could be exposing the club to liability for allowing non members out with a club organised event.

For those who are giving out, talk to the leisure commission, get involved and put a motion to CI for the next AGM to reduce it. I would recommend asking the justification for it, a split in the costs from the insurers etc in relation to leisure members as that is their only real cost, and there is a benefit to CI in regards funding to have as many people on the books as possible. A simple argument could be the Insurance cost plus an admin fee is what the license fee for leisure members should be, but make the case, ask them for the info ASAP and build it up over the year.

I could be wrong but my understanding is some posters here are involved with the leisure commission so that would be the route to bring it to the AGM but make sure you can justify it. It may sound like turkeys voting for Christmas but the truth is, most of those who turn up to vote at the AGM will want a justification greater than to reduce the hit to my pocket because they know that if you go that way CI will fold very quickly. I didn't like the info given at the AGM but no alternatives or other arguments other than we don't like that were put forward from memory.

MojoMaker · 01-12-2020 9:35pm

Did someone say above a TI training licence grants insurance cover for commuting by bike?

Mercian Pro · 01-12-2020 11:30pm

Hadn't seen this thread when I went to renew my membership a few hours ago. As a club member, CI or IVCA membership is mandatory so the only real choice was whether to pay the extra €10 or not. I had a number of accidents over the years, some of which invoved sucessfull claims against third parties and others where I ended up claiming against my medical insurance. The loss of earnings cover is irrelevant as I'm retired so I decided against paying the extra. A club mate who came down in the same incident as my last accident was less than impressed with both the personal accident cover and the loss of earning cover and eventually gave up on persuing a claim. I know it's only €10 but I can't really see much benefit if you already have medical insurance.

Wishbone Ash · 02-12-2020 12:03am

Mercian Pro wrote: »

... I can't really see much benefit if you already have medical insurance.

Does it cover for a claim taken by a third party. For example, if I caused another cyclist or a pedestrian to be injured?

Mercian Pro · 02-12-2020 3:08pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Does it cover for a claim taken by a third pkarty. For example, if I caused another cyclist or a pedestrian to be injured?

As I understand it, third party cover is included in the basic membership fee of €50. However, this does not cover "Any injury or damage suffered by one participant caused by another participant during training activities". So it looks like a fellow club member could claim against your CI insurance only if they are an IVCA member and not a CI member.

smacl · 02-12-2020 4:30pm

cletus wrote: »

Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this question, but can anybody lay out the advantages in paying a leisure cyclist membership to the CI?

I do most of my cycling solo or with one or two mates on occasion. If I'm planning on doing any events over the year I'll pick up a CI membership to reduce the faffing about with the one day license at the start of an event, which to be fair is usually minimal. I seem to remember seeing a couple of events which didn't offer one day licenses which would be a bigger issue.

Other reason that I'd buy a license is simply to support the major cycling advocacy group in the country. I spend a fair amount of time on the bike, enjoy cycling and am all for Ireland being a more cycle friendly country.

I suspect the majority of people who cycle regularly at this point aren't CI members, e.g. families cycling together, commuters who aren't club cyclists and casual non-club cyclists. CI seem to be missing a large part of their audience in this regard.

Mercian Pro · 02-12-2020 5:36pm

smacl wrote: »

Other reason that I'd buy a license is simply to support the major cycling advocacy group in the country.

I have no problem supporting CI on the basis of what they do for the sport of cycling but I certainly wouldn't regard them as "the major cycling advocacy group in the country". I know there is a brief section on their website dealing with advocacy and they contribute to the cost of Cyclist.ie employing a cycling officer but I'm not aware that they have ever commented on specific cycling infrastructure projects or argued for more funding for same. When I raised this with CI a number of years ago, I was told that it wouldn't be prudent to be critical of projects funded by the Dept of Transport when a substantial part of CI's income came from that source!

smacl · 02-12-2020 5:57pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

I have no problem supporting CI on the basis of what they do for the sport of cycling but I certainly wouldn't regard them as "the major cycling advocacy group in the country". I know there is a brief section on their website dealing with advocacy and they contribute to the cost of Cyclist.ie employing a cycling officer but I'm not aware that they have ever commented on specific cycling infrastructure projects or argued for more funding for same. When I raised this with CI a number of years ago, I was told that it wouldn't be prudent to be critical of projects funded by the Dept of Transport when a substantial part of CI's income came from that source!

Interesting. Doesn't sound like there's much point in the CI membership for me so unless I'm planning on a bunch of sportives. I've used my own health insurance when I've needed it and amn't overly concerned about being sued by third parties. While I'm out cycling 4-6 times a week at the moment it is all leisure and mostly solo. Looks like I'd be better off joining cyclist.ie

cletus · 02-12-2020 6:02pm

Thanks for the responses to my specific question. I cycle solo about 80% of the time, the other 20% is done with, at most, two other people.

I'm not a member of a club, and I've never entered an organised cycling event of any kind.

It would seem CI membership/insurance has little to offer.

ChickenBalls · 03-12-2020 4:11pm

Does the leisure license cover zwift races?

C.I. Leisure Licence Price increase?

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