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Watts per kilogram

  • 15-03-2010 10:22am
    #1
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭


    The last training plan is not fully realised, but it's nonetheless time for a new 13 week plan.

    This will take me through to the end of June, including my two week family cycling holiday.

    Despite some opinions that power to weight is not important in Irish road racing, this does not meet my very limited experience so far. At least while power to weight may not determine the outcome of a sprint finish, it seems to be a factor in whether you get the opportunity to contest a sprint at all, or are dropped/worn out on one of the preceeding drags.

    Besides which, it's a convenient fiction since I'm fairly skinny, and gives me a reason to control my diet.

    My 5 min max power, which is quite easy to measure on the turbo since it doesn't require extended suffering, is currently about 320W. If I take my optimum "racing weight" (i.e. that which is maintainable with a controlled diet) to be 68kg, that gives a 5 min W/kg of 4.7.

    A reasonable goal is therefore about 5W/kg (340W @ 68kg) for 5 minutes.

    With a balanced power profile, this would give the following power peaks (according to the Coggan chart):

    5 sec: 17.24 W/kg (1170W @ 68kg)
    1 min: 8.63 W/kg (587W @ 68kg)
    5 min: 5.01 W/kg (340W @ 68kg)
    FT: 4.18 W/kg (284W @ 68kg)

    My biggest physical weakness currently is a lack of anaerobic power. The 5 sec and 1 min power levels seem completely unattainable, but since I've never focused on measuring or training those intervals I have no idea.

    The plan will be based on four sessions a week, usually some combination of turbo or road intervals and races.

    I expect the logs to be quite dull. Sorry!


«1

Comments

  • #2
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lumen wrote: »
    The last training plan is not fully realised, but it's nonetheless time for a new 13 week plan.

    This will take me through to the end of June, including my two week family cycling holiday.

    Despite some opinions that power to weight is not important in Irish road racing, this does not meet my very limited experience so far. At least while power to weight may not determine the outcome of a sprint finish, it seems to be a factor in whether you get the opportunity to contest a sprint at all, or are dropped/worn out on one of the preceeding drags.

    Besides which, it's a convenient fiction since I'm fairly skinny, and gives me a reason to control my diet.

    My 5 min max power, which is quite easy to measure on the turbo since it doesn't require extended suffering, is currently about 320W. If I take my optimum "racing weight" (i.e. that which is maintainable with a controlled diet) to be 68kg, that gives a 5 min W/kg of 4.7.

    A reasonable goal is therefore about 5W/kg (340W @ 68kg) for 5 minutes.

    With a balanced power profile, this would give the following power peaks (according to the Coggan chart):

    5 sec: 17.24 W/kg (1170W @ 68kg)
    1 min: 8.63 W/kg (587W @ 68kg)
    5 min: 5.01 W/kg (340W @ 68kg)
    FT: 4.18 W/kg (284W @ 68kg)

    My biggest physical weakness currently is a lack of anaerobic power. The 5 sec and 1 min power levels seem completely unattainable, but since I've never focused on measuring or training those intervals I have no idea.

    The plan will be based on four sessions a week, usually some combination of turbo or road intervals and races.

    I expect the logs to be quite dull. Sorry!


    Lets try this with some real figures - whats your present weight?


  • #3
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tunney wrote: »
    Lets try this with some real figures - whats your present weight?

    Between 69kg and 71kg, depending on when I measure it.

    edit: my scales said 69.4kg when I got home from yesterday's short race, so probably 70.5kg when fully hydrated.


  • #4
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lumen wrote: »
    Between 69kg and 71kg, depending on when I measure it.

    edit: my scales said 69.4kg when I got home from yesterday's short race, so probably 70.5kg when fully hydrated.

    Where you want to be:

    5 sec: 17.24 W/kg (1170W @ 68kg)
    1 min: 8.63 W/kg (587W @ 68kg)
    5 min: 5.01 W/kg (340W @ 68kg)
    FT: 4.18 W/kg (284W @ 68kg)

    Where you are:

    5 sec: 15.88 W/kg (1119W @ 70.5kg)
    1 min: 8.05 W/kg (567W @ 70.5kg)
    5 min: 4.50 W/kg (320W @ 70.5kg)
    FT: 3.73 W/kg (263W @ 70.5kg)

    FTP is a little on the low side too I'd have said.

    How you tried Sweet spot training (SST)? 45 minute blocks of it? 2x20 at FTP is a good one too.

    How are you measuring power? What turbo?


  • #5
    trad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭trad


    What ever happened to going for a spin with the lads to improve performance?


  • #6
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    I'd agree with Tunney, FTP is a little on the low side.

    Sessions like...
    2x45 min at 90% FTP
    1x60 min at 95% FTP
    2x20 min at 95% FTP
    ... will bring your FTP along and your 5 minute power with it (to some degree).

    I wouldn't worry about your short duration stuff, seems good to begin with.

    Also watch out for that chart! It's very much on the low side (for Irish racing anyway). A1s over here would be in the "domestic pro" category, A2s in the "Cat 1" category and so on...

    Also, don't worry so much about the % of FTP you do these long, threshold efforts at. If you start a 2x20 session and can only hold 90% of FTP of that particular day, don't sweat it. Just get it done at 90% of FTP. You're still training the targeted systems, and you will avoid the trap of trying to hit PBs in every session.


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  • #7
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tunney wrote: »
    FTP is a little on the low side too I'd have said.

    In what sense? My 5 min max is higher up the profile than my measured FTP, but I just put that down to lack of motivation for longer intervals.
    tunney wrote: »
    How you tried Sweet spot training (SST)? 45 minute blocks of it? 2x20 at FTP is a good one too.

    I can watch TV at tempo, so SST is an option. I quite like doing anaerobic intervals with tempo recovery - quite race specific and packs a lot of intensity into a short session.
    tunney wrote: »
    How are you measuring power? What turbo?

    Powertap hub.
    trad wrote: »
    What ever happened to going for a spin with the lads to improve performance?

    I don't really have time for that due to family commitments.

    Once the club racing season starts I hope to be able to race Thurs night and once at the weekend when there's an A4 race within 45 mins drive. My long spin will be 6am-10am on Saturday mornings if I'm not racing, and perhaps Tues nights in mid-summer.

    Group training rides are fun but not often great training, and I get the social aspect from meeting people at races.


  • #8
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    I wouldn't worry about your short duration stuff, seems good to begin with.

    To clarify, I am probably no way near the "flat profile" figures on 1min and 5min power. I haven't measured them, but I very rarely go above 400W in normal riding, let alone 1000W.
    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    Also watch out for that chart! It's very much on the low side (for Irish racing anyway). A1s over here would be in the "domestic pro" category, A2s in the "Cat 1" category and so on...

    Yes, I'm minding your advice on that from the other thread. The two A4 races I've done have been in the 220W-240W range on average, and I've heard that an average A3 would find 250W to be at the bottom end of their tempo range (it's closer to threshold for me currently).
    Also, don't worry so much about the % of FTP you do these long, threshold efforts at. If you start a 2x20 session and can only hold 90% of FTP of that particular day, don't sweat it. Just get it done at 90% of FTP. You're still training the targeted systems, and you will avoid the trap of trying to hit PBs in every session.

    Will do, ta.


  • #9
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    One more thing...

    Anyone know the correct procedure for measuring 5sec and 1min power on a turbo?

    I assume I just warm up as usual then nail it. Spinning start or stationary? Should I use a massive gear for the 5 sec power?


  • #10
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    I'd argue that both are best done on the road.

    Don't use too big a gear for 5 sec power. Start off at 80rpm and you should be hitting 120-130rpm at the end of your sprint.

    1 minute all-out efforts are extremely rare and you won't find them in your race files. If you want to find your 1 min max, sprint as hard as you can (as though you were trying for a 5 sec max) and then just hold it for as long as you can. The last 30 secs should be absolute torture. probably best done on a hill. I'd argue that's it's not too important fiinding out your 1 min max anyway. If you wanted to do 1 min intervals you should do them at an output that is somewhat repeatable.


  • #11
    Raam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    How did you guys measure your FTP? I don't mean which device you used.


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  • #12
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Raam wrote: »
    How did you guys measure your FTP? I don't mean which device you used.

    0.92 * 20 TT
    0.9 * Power at vo2max
    1.0 * 60 minute TT


  • #13
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tunney wrote: »
    0.92 * 20 TT
    0.9 * Power at vo2max
    1.0 * 60 minute TT

    There are a couple of other variants.

    The Coggan/Allen test method involves an initial 5 min max power "leg emptier", which means you are so knackered when you do the 20 min interval that you can just use that, i.e. 20TT=FTP. Unless I misunderstood their test.

    Alternatively, since motivation is always lower in a training test than in a race, you can just take 20TT=FTP.

    Doesn't really matter, as long as it's consistent.


  • #14
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    1x60 is the gold standard, but in my experience if you do a 1x60 in training you'll only achieve 95% of what you'd do for a 60 min effort if you were rested and motivated.

    The power output at which you do 2x20s consistently is a good idea of your FTP, provided you are rested. If you're doing 2x20s with fatigue from previous days you might do them 10W lower than FTP, but again thats no harm, just note that you FTP might indeed be a tad higher.

    90% of power at VO2Max is wrong though. 90% of VO2Max is the typical intensity of a 1hr TT (if well-trained), but it's different from power at 90% of VO2Max - which is somewhere in the region of 72-77% of power at VO2Max. Phew...


  • #15
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lumen wrote: »
    There are a couple of other variants.

    The Coggan/Allen test method involves an initial 5 min max power "leg emptier", which means you are so knackered when you do the 20 min interval that you can just use that, i.e. 20TT=FTP. Unless I misunderstood their test.
    It always reads too high IMHO. 0.95 is what they recommend even with the "leg emptier"


  • #16
    tunney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    90% of power at VO2Max is wrong though. 90% of VO2Max is the typical intensity of a 1hr TT (if well-trained), but it's different from power at 90% of VO2Max - which is somewhere in the region of 72-77% of power at VO2Max. Phew...

    I meant 90% of max power in vo2max test.


  • #17
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Thu
    - Road bike/turbo, 0:40, 196W, 470kJ. (10@140W, 12@200W, 1@410W, 1@310W, 3@250W, 7@160W, 1@410W, 4@160W, 1@410W).

    Fri
    - Road bike/turbo, 0:48, 193W, 556kJ. (20@160W, 3x1/1 cadence/recovery, 3x(2x300W, 5@200W)

    Sun: Newbridge GP.
    - 0:58 ish, 810kJ, 169bpm, 233W, max 186bpm.
    - Power peaks 5s: 785W, 30s: 414W, 1m:397W, 5m:309W, 10m:278W, 20m:266W, 30m:252W.
    - 250kJ warm up/down.

    Total work: 2086kJ
    Closing weight: 69.5kg
    Best peak 20min: 266W


  • #18
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Wed: St Patrick's Day race at Dunboyne.
    - 1:42, 1276kJ, 168bpm, 208W, max 185bpm.
    - Peak power: 5s:751W, 30s:458W, 1m:390W, 5m:279W, 10m:266W, 20m:250W, 30m:232W, 60m:219W.
    - 401kJ warm up/down.

    Fri: turbo.
    - 0:48, 576kJ, 198W, 149bpm. 20@161W, 12@262W, 5@183W, 5@260W, 6@160W. Warmer temps not making turbo any easier.

    Sun: race at Bohermeen.
    - 1:35, 1251kJ, 218W, no HR.
    - Peak power: 5s:808W, 30s:551W, 1m:401W, 5m:297W, 10m:275W, 20m:256W, 30m:246W, 60m:226W.

    Total work: 3505kJ
    Closing weight: 69kg
    Best peak 20min: 256W


  • #19
    blorg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,995 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    Seems to all be trending in an upwards direction.


  • #20
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    You doing race three of the series in the park on Sunday?


  • #21
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mloc123 wrote: »
    You doing race three of the [Winter Duathlon] series in the park on Sunday?

    Probably not. I have an entry, but there's a road race on at Balbriggan...

    Good luck with it!


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  • #22
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Lumen wrote: »
    Probably not. I have an entry, but there's a road race on at Balbriggan...

    Good luck with it!

    Not doing it myself, no entry and I'm on a rest week... which I intend to take seriously for once :D


  • #23
    blorg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,995 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    Lumen wrote: »
    Probably not. I have an entry, but there's a road race on at Balbriggan...

    Good luck with it!
    Good on you, he is one of us now. Triathletes hands off!


  • #24
    niceonetom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    I spied a pair of runners with elastic laces and one of those pedometer dohickies at the sign-in to one of the road races. I don't think we're out of woods yet.


  • #25
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    niceonetom wrote: »
    I spied a pair of runners with elastic laces and one of those pedometer dohickies at the sign-in to one of the road races. I don't think we're out of woods yet.

    They'll have to do until the Mavic Zxellium podium shoes become available.

    Nothing shouts hopeless over-optimism louder than a podium shoe. They're soooo me.


  • #26
    Raam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    Lumen wrote: »
    They'll have to do until the Mavic Zxellium podium shoes become available.

    Nothing shouts hopeless over-optimism louder than a podium shoe. They're soooo me.

    Jaysus, get off yer bleedin' podium will ya?


  • #27
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    A few races done in the last month but still feeling fresh so will keep up the speed work until I have time for longer spins.

    Tue: first proper road session of the year. Only had an hour, so kept it brisk. Tempo with some short 400W+ intervals, a few traffic lights.
    - 1:03, 236W, 902kJ, 166bpm, 34kph.
    - 20@225W, 1@422W, 5@239W, 1@412W, 5@231W, 1@407W, 30@226W.
    - Peak power: 5s:821W, 30s:441W, 1m:427W, 5m:278W, 10m:275W, 20m:264W, 30m:249W, 60m:238W.

    Fri: spin out to Cruagh to check out the climb for next Tues. 2:47 @ 173W, 1736kJ.
    - 1:14 @ 150W, 668kJ
    - 0:10 @ 299W, 180kJ (aborted attempt)
    - 0:20 @ 280W, 345kJ (proper attempt)
    - 1:03 @ 143W, 543kJ
    Last hillclimb I did in Sept 09 was 260W for 18 mins, so 280W for 20 mins (at the same HR) is a definite improvement. GoldenCheetah estimates from recent rides that CP60=280W, CP20=295W, although I don't fancy trying to keep 280W up for an hour.

    Sun: another crack at Cruagh. 2hrs @ 169W, 1220kJ.
    - 0:50 @ 155W, 464kJ
    - 0:19(:27) @ 281W, 328kJ
    - 0:51 @ 136W, 428kJ

    Total work: 3858kJ.
    Closing weight: 68.5kg
    Best peak 20min: 280W


  • #28
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    You using WKO?


  • #29
    velo.2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    @Lumen, who was that good-looking guy flying up the Sally Gap on Saturday that you passed on your way down?

    :D


  • #30
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    @Lumen, who was that good-looking guy flying up the Sally Gap on Saturday that you passed on your way down?

    Not me. I haven't been up Sally this year. :(
    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    You using WKO?

    Not much. I had the full-on WKO+/TrainingPeaks subscription last year, but it wasn't really better than the alternatives, and when they required a fresh purchase for a minor version upgrade I thought "stuff that".

    Now I use a combination of GoldenCheetah, PowerAgent and Garmin Training Centre. They all have different strengths:

    GoldenCheetah
    - Has various metrics similar to NP/TSS (xPower, BikeScore, Daniels Points), and it's free. Currently running version 1.3rc3.
    - Good for locating power peaks within a session - click on one and it highlights it within the ride graph.
    - Crashes a lot, particularly when calculating critical power or splitting rides.

    PowerAgent
    - Great for getting stats on specific segments of ride data.
    - Supports names for rides, so I can locate specific races/sportives/training sessions quickly.

    Garmin Training Centre
    - Map integration makes it easy to identify specific efforts within a race when I've been too cooked to press the lap button (every single race so far).
    - Finally has support for power (how many years late?).
    - Smoothed graphs are pleasantly wiggly.

    Obviously I don't need all of this, but it's fun to play with, and I'm a geek.


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  • #31
    velo.2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Oh apologies, thought that was you. White Limar helmet, black bike making your off the Gap back towards KIlbride!!

    Never mind, thats some going with your power. Couldnt afford the associated gear myself, might get to a gym with a bike-power readout.


  • #32
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Tonsillitis, antibiotics. Will probably get the damn things out over Christmas.


  • #33
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    - Mon-Sat: off the bike (due diligence for me after a bout of tonsillitis).

    - Sun: race in Carlow. No data as Garmin was being repaired. Dropped chain then got dropped, but probably would have happened anyway.


  • #34
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Mon: commute (28km).
    Tue: commute + shopping (46km). Back sore from heavy load, must refit rack.

    Got my iBood fat scales today, much fun. Need to standardise the protocol, but this evening they said 69kg, 9.6% BF (age: 35, height: 181cm). That seems plausible since I'm a bit ribby at the moment and quite light for my height. If 4% is almost-ill-TdF-2009-Wiggins, that would give me about 4kg amateur fat, which seems healthy. I've no intention of getting to 65kg.

    @Tunney: do I have your permission to use climbing wheels yet, or do I have to get veins on my stomach first?

    So I think the weight is fine and I just need much more power. Next goal is 300W for 20 minutes (best is currently 280W). Not fussed about CP60, too painful to test.

    Tested new Cinqo power meter tonight on the turbo alongside Powertap, numbers agree within a couple of watts. Compatible BBs on race bike and TT bike, all very easy and convenient.

    10K club TT on Thurs night. Have only used the TT bike once on the road, and not on the turbo in several months, so I don't have high expectations. Still no aero wheels or disc, maybe they'll come in time.


  • #35
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    I passed a van parked in Castleknock tonight. It was a Lumen Electric van. I thought it was apt to post it here.


  • #36
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Closing weight: 67.5kg

    Summary of this week's efforts...

    Mon,Tue,Wed: commuting and stuff, ~100km in total.

    Thu - Club League 10 mile TT
    26:12, 252W (back injury from earlier in week)
    Result: 3rd in semi-limit

    Sat - Pat & Monie Nolan Memorial (A4 handicap)
    49.3km, 1:19:02, 37.4kph, 457m ascent, 1193kJ, 252W (average), 267W (normalised).
    Power peaks: 30s:484W, 1m:405W, 5m:296W, 10m:294W, 20m:269W, 60m:257W.
    Result: 3rd unplaced A4

    Sun - Stamullen GP (A4)
    38.5km, 1:04:29, 35.9kph, 407m^, 170bpm, 937kJ, 242W (average), 258W (normalised).
    Power peaks: 1m:386W, 2m:346W, 5m:302W, 10m:284W, 20m:260W, 30m:257W, 60m: 246W.
    Result: finished about +1:15 down, dropped on hill 20 mins from finish.

    Around the time I got dropped on the Stamullen GP I was doing 290W ish (4.3W/kg) for nearly 5 mins. I can't climb much harder than this at the moment.

    Hopefully my back will recover properly this week and I can start pushing harder.

    Average power/normalised power/time from open races this season:

    184W/216W/1:44 (including crash)
    233W/----/0:56
    208W/232W/1:42
    218W/244W/1:35
    (Carlow - no data)
    252W/267W/1:19
    242W/258W/1:04

    Things are trending vaguely upwards.


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  • #37
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    While the sample size is small it does suggest a slightly inverse relationship between power output and kj burned. Why is this? Does one become 'more efficient' as one gets fitter/stronger/leaner?


  • #38
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ROK ON wrote: »
    While the sample size is small it does suggest a slightly inverse relationship between power output and kj burned. Why is this? Does one become 'more efficient' as one gets fitter/stronger/leaner?

    No, that's just because the races are all different lengths and you tend to push harder on the shorter ones.

    I might switch have switched kJ to time as it's confusing even for me.


  • #39
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Last night I did the interclub league hillclimb TT at Bohernabreena.

    I'd crunched some numbers on the climb based on a MapMyRide profile, and established that with my default 39-23 I'd have to go very anaerobic at a very low cadence for a couple of the sharper sections.

    Since I don't have a compact powermeter and couldn't be bothered to change cassette, 39x23 it would be. Last year I was cycling with a 30-27 and I'm still trying to banish my "gear fear", so I reckoned that it would be an interesting experiment.

    Fortunately my clubmate Joe (who also races in A4/SL) turned up with a 42-23, and the man mountain El Tonto was on a 39-27, so I figured it'd be fine.

    The two practice hillclimbs I've done this year (of Cruagh) have been around 20 minutes at 280W, and whilst I feel there is a 300W hillclimb within my reach soon, I didn't want to blow up on the steep sections this time.

    So I started out easy enough, and my ride broken into rough thirds worked out at 285W/288W/286W, with HR averaging 178bpm overall and 184bpm for the last 6 minutes. There was a bit of leg pain, and at the finish I felt I could have gone harder, but maybe I'm just getting used to riding at my limits. I almost vomited a few minutes afterwards whilst curled up foetally on a hedge, so I guess I tried hard enough.

    As it turned out I spent a total of about 5 minutes at 50-60rpm and about 4 minutes in my anaerobic zone (over 320W), but it never felt uncomfortable. I just used the steeper sections to get out the saddle and stretch the legs.

    Still, I reckon a compact (or std double with a custom cassette) would be faster at my level for these events, to give a combination of low gearing and close gaps between gears.

    The upshot was 16:54 @ 286W, which I'm satisfied with under the circumstances. I was about 8% slower than the best in semi-limit. I reckon 320W would do it, so something to aim for next year.

    Edit: results here. I came 7/22 in semi-limit.

    Current weight is 68.5kg. Have been overeating this week so about 1kg up from my recent normal weight.

    Updated stats for races this year:

    2010-02-27: 247W/254W/0:49 (Club pre-season)
    2010-03-06: 184W/216W/1:44 (Mick Lally A4, includes crash)
    2010-03-14: 233W/----/0:56 (Newbridge GP A4)
    2010-03-17: 208W/232W/1:42 (Paddy's Day A4)
    2010-03-21: 218W/244W/1:35 (Bohermeen A4)
    2010-04-11: (Des Hanlon A4 - no data)
    2010-04-15: 252W/252W/0:26 (Interclub league - 10m TT, back problems)
    2010-04-17: 252W/267W/1:19 (Nolan Memorial A4)
    2010-04-18: 242W/258W/1:04 (Stamullen GP A4)
    2010-04-22: ??? (Interclub league DMS SL)
    2010-05-06: 227W/235W/0:43 (Interclub league - handicap SL)
    2010-05-08: 180W/206W/1:59 (Wexford A4)
    2010-05-13: 286W/284W/0:17 (Interclub league - hillclimb TT)

    Not much in the way of upward trend, and I suspect that the higher numbers in the Stamullen races may be due to not zeroing the power meter.

    I've been very lazy with training recently, not helped by some pain behind the knee and in my right calf which has thankfully abated now.

    The nice thing about a powermeter is it strips away all the subjectivity. I feel in generally better physical condition after a couple of months of racing but my stats haven't improved much.

    I need to find time for threshold training at least once a week, as racing just doesn't give the right sort of sustained intensity to push my FTP up, and racing near threshold for the sake of it leads to poor finishes.


  • #40
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    This thread makes for interesting reading. I am back on the bike again after 15yrs and hoping to get back to reasonable shape-and maybe even join a club again.
    I am curious about the stats and format of the data you are posting-I presume these are coming from a power meter (which i never knew existed until a few weeks ago). What sort do you use - crankset or wheels?
    Although it would have no basis on my condition today I am curious how one of my old tests would translate into todays data. One of my early seadon tests had the following outcome:
    Weight 62kg
    VO2 73mg
    Power at aerobic threshold 310watts
    HR @ Threshold 186bpm
    (max power at blow up was 370watts or so)
    Is it possible to translate this -even roughly?

    Kaisr


  • #41
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Weight 62kg
    Power at aerobic threshold 310watts
    HR @ Threshold 186bpm

    These benchmarks are still used.

    "Aerobic threshold" is a bit of a tricky one, as it's subject to interpretation. I think it is supposed to mean "the rate at which lactate starts to accumulate", but I believe that since different athletes can perform with different stable lactate levels, the decision about what level to choose is a bit arbitrary.

    So most commonly the "functional threshold power" (FTP) is used, which is the power you can sustain for one hour. It's probably much the same as "aerobic threshold", as an hour is long enough to eliminate anaerbic effects but short enough that you can't bonk.

    Unfortunately unless you're a double hard b'stard, doing regular 1hr time trials is a bit too tough, but there are rules of thumb to translate shorter efforts, e.g. FTP=95% of 20 minute power.

    I currently use a crank based power meter (Cinqo Saturn) which communicates wirelessly with by bike computer (Garmin 705). I can display the data during the ride in various different ways (e.g. current power, 30 second power, lap power) and download after the ride to my laptop using a USB cable.

    Then there are various software packages to analyse the data from single rides and over time.

    I most commonly use GoldenCheetah, which gives interesting graphs like this:

    dljgqf.jpg

    This is the critical power plot from last night (black) against the maximums from my 2010 racing season (red) and computed critical power curve (dashed line).

    It shows that my efforts last night were close to by season's best in the 10-15 minute interval (where the red and black lines are close), but were lower than my best for shorter periods. This is because power is fairly constant in a time trial, so you're never going to hit short interval peaks.

    It also shows that I'm getting nowhere near to my projected potential in 1hr power, but that's because I haven't done a 40k TT this year, and road races tend to be much more jumpy rather than sustained efforts near threshold.


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  • #42
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Is your goal still TT'ing this year or you moved on to racing?


  • #43
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Is your goal still TT'ing this year or you moved on to racing?

    My goal was never TT'ing as such, I'm far too crap for that. The TT bike was an impulse purchase when Planet-X pricing was too good to ignore. The intention was really to prepare for whatever TT'ing I would be doing by getting comfortable on the TT bike over the winter. I set myself a fairly arbitrary target of 1:04 for the start of the season, but never got around to that as I lost all my evenings in March and then got caught up in road racing.

    Even now that the evenings are longer and more pleasant, I struggle to find the motivation to get out on the TT bike. It's just not much fun to ride compared to my road bike. I'm sure I'll get back to it at some point...


  • #44
    Murph100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Murph100


    Hey Lumen, couple of questions for ya.


    Whose FTP test methods do you use, I see some slight differences between Coogan, Friel and Allen.

    Do you test on the turbo trainer or road ?

    ... and if on the turbo trainer, does that ftp translate across to ftp on the road ?


  • #45
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Thanks for your reply Lumen.
    You appear to me well educated in scientific training. Hope it's workin for you.
    Just seen your post on not focussing on TT. While I agree that it's a speciised dicipline I would venture the thought or notion that intensive road racing would only improve your ability to TT by improving physical and mental conditioning. Obviously intensive exertion to get away, stay away, hang onto a wheel or rejoin would improve TT ability. Mentally the experience of these would simulate the mental intensity of riding close to physical limit for extended periods of time. My best TT performances either came in a short stage race TT or a week or two after completing one.


  • #46
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Murph100 wrote: »
    Whose FTP test methods do you use, I see some slight differences between Coogan, Friel and Allen.

    I don't really do much testing. Testing requires cycling at threshold, and I'm usually significantly under or over it.

    There is an argument that threshold intervals are the "gold standard" for training. I don't have any issue with that idea, it's just that I can enjoy TV at 220W or music at 300W+ but there is no form of entertainment that works at 275W.

    I started racing in March and haven't done much structured training since then. I'm using almost all my domestic credits for racing, and any left over I use for fun cycling or the odd practice hillclimb.
    Murph100 wrote: »
    if on the turbo trainer, does that ftp translate across to ftp on the road ?

    20 mins at 280W is easy enough on the road. 20 minutes at 250W is very hard on the trainer.
    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Hope it's workin for you.

    Time will tell, it's interesting more than anything; I'm coming from a very low base. I decided to put this stuff in a training log to encourage other people to share their own plans, despite the fact that my numbers are woefully unimpressive. Part of the problem with power training is that anyone really good doesn't want to give too much away (or is disinterested in the gadgetry) so you only seem to find data from the crap people.

    Good luck with your return to cycling. Another poster here (Diarmuid) is around the same weight as you were with perhaps 280W FTP, and he's started placing in the hillier A4 races.


  • #47
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Lumen wrote: »

    20 mins at 280W is easy enough on the road. 20 minutes at 250W is very hard on the trainer.

    It's weird just how hard it can be to maintain high power on the trainer. You have the benefit of variety of terrain and a breeze on the road, which clearly helps. I find it just about as easy to keep up the high power on the track (where you have the benefit of the breeze, but no variety of terrain) - possibly being on a fixie on the track helps (ie no easy option to let-up by freewheeling).


  • #48
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Nice ride last night, apart from the insect life.

    Did a 30s sprint in amongst the tempo...

    30s: 721W
    10s: 851W
    05s: 896W
    Peak: 941W

    Need to do that more often. CP curve starting to fill out.

    dnd4qg.jpg


  • #49
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The Batterstown 10 mile TT circuit is convenient for evening spins so I've started using it for road bike training.

    I'm steadily closing in on my TT bike time from a few weeks ago.

    - 2010-04-15: 26:17, 252W, TT bike, aerobars, 50/disc & pointy hat.
    - 2010-05-21: 27:14, 254W, road bike, 50/50.
    - 2010-05-23: 26:29, 269W, road bike, 50/50.

    Another 12 seconds to go, reckon 275W will do it....

    edit:

    - 2010-05-25: 26:22, 279W, road bike, 50/50. Stupid flappy gilet! Armwarmers next time...


  • #50
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Pretty interesting, all the aero rig only saves about 23watts? Condition similar each time?


  • #51
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,140 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Pretty interesting, all the aero rig only saves about 23watts? Condition similar each time?

    Roughly similar conditions though it's a u-shaped course so can be affected by wind direction. Need more data points!

    I think the difference is more like 22W, but that's loads - about 8% power, though I'm sure I have great scope for improvement with my TT position.


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