Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

ZilkyG · 18-06-2019 3:37pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

RIP Ana

Rot in hell, scum

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0617/1055781-ana-kriegel/

I say hang the little ****s. Although knowing this country, they'll probably get a suspended sentence and a PS4

blackwhite · 18-06-2019 3:37pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I did a quick Google and can't see anything that says that they were tried as adults.

Maybe someone else will turn up something either way.

They were tried in the Central Criminal Court.

We don't have the legal concept of "tried as adults" or "tried as children/minors" here - that's a UK concept - and we get lazy journalism here that continues to use the phrase.

Under Irish law, they are children in front of the court. However, once it's a serious offence worthy of the Central Criminal Court, then the trial procedure is almost identical to an adult trial (other than protections around identity, etc.) - and the same sentencing options are open to the judge as would be for an adult (albeit with a proviso from the Children's Act that imprisonment should be a "last resort").

The Children's Act doesn't mention mandatory sentencing, but widespread legal opinion is that mandatory sentencing isn't applicable for children. However judges here have generally imposed life sentences on children convicted of murder so the applicability of mandatory sentencing hasn't been tested in Court.

GT_TDI_150 · 18-06-2019 3:38pm

Small Wonder wrote: »

Why do people want then named? What good will it do?

Might just set alarm bells ringing when someones now 5-10yr old daughters starts dating this scroth in 20yrs time....

These lads will walk out in x years time and will be able to settle in most country towns and noone will be any the wiser who they are dealing with...similar to jamie buldgers killers in the uk... Would you not like to know of 9ne of them moved in next to you?

Nerdlingr · 18-06-2019 3:38pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Boy B led her to death

I know that.
I was responding the post that there was no forensic evidence of him at the scene.

Dublin Spur · 18-06-2019 3:38pm

great day for justice system
now don't ruin it with soft sentencing

Wombatman · 18-06-2019 3:39pm

Nerdlingr wrote: »

There didn't need to be. Boy B put himself at the scene and said he witnessed the start of the assault, got scared and ran.

.... and that's enough for a murder conviction?

BattleCorp · 18-06-2019 3:40pm

blackwhite wrote: »

They were tried in the Central Criminal Court.

We don't have the legal concept of "tried as adults" or "tried as children/minors" here - that's a UK concept - and we get lazy journalism here that continues to use the phrase.

Under Irish law, they are children in front of the court. However, once it's a serious offence worthy of the Central Criminal Court, then the trial procedure is almost identical to an adult trial (other than protections around identity, etc.) - and the same sentencing options are open to the judge as would be for an adult (albeit with a proviso from the Children's Act that imprisonment should be a "last resort").

The Children's Act doesn't mention mandatory sentencing, but widespread legal opinion is that mandatory sentencing isn't applicable for children. However judges here have generally imposed life sentences on children convicted of murder so the applicability of mandatory sentencing hasn't been tested in Court.

Thanks for your insight.

So, no guarantee of a life sentence for the boys. It's an option but not a certainty.

Jupiter Mulligan · 18-06-2019 3:40pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

perhaps they did advise them to plead guilty but the kids were free to ignore that advice. If you ask a kid to plead guilty and tell them they will definitely do time if they do or they can plead not guilty and take their chances what do you think a kid would do?

What their experienced legal advisers told them too.

ohnonotgmail · 18-06-2019 3:40pm

blackwhite wrote: »

They were tried in the Central Criminal Court.

We don't have the legal concept of "tried as adults" or "tried as children/minors" here - that's a UK concept - and we get lazy journalism here that continues to use the phrase.

Under Irish law, they are children in front of the court. However, once it's a serious offence worthy of the Central Criminal Court, then the trial procedure is almost identical to an adult trial (other than protections around identity, etc.) - and the same sentencing options are open to the judge as would be for an adult (albeit with a proviso from the Children's Act that imprisonment should be a "last resort").

The Children's Act doesn't mention mandatory sentencing, but widespread legal opinion is that mandatory sentencing isn't applicable for children. However judges here have generally imposed life sentences on children convicted of murder so the applicability of mandatory sentencing hasn't been tested in Court.

there has been an instance where a kid was not sentenced to life for murder and the sentence was upheld by the appeal court.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/children-charged-with-serious-crimes-face-different-criminal-justice-process-to-adults-1.3508849

Amalgam · 18-06-2019 3:41pm

I'm glad the proper verdict has come about.

I couldn't watch TV at all while this trial was on, the coverage was quite salacious at times and it affected me whenever it would come on. This really was a case that seeped into your mind and lurked in your thoughts, for no good reason.

I guarantee you we'll here from one or both of the guilty as they grow up into adulthood.

Visions of the James Bulger accused, spring to mind..

The only thing that was a ''positive' for me was the noticeable lack of hand wringing on behalf of A & B.

ohnonotgmail · 18-06-2019 3:41pm

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

What their experienced legal advisers told them too.

but they dont have to do what their lawyers tell them to do. that is the point.

iamwhoiam · 18-06-2019 3:41pm

Wombatman wrote: »

.... and that's enough for a murder conviction?

He lied about everything . Read the evidence .

Grayson · 18-06-2019 3:42pm

The jury were excused from ever having to do duty again. It generally happens after a nasty trial. In this case it's well deserved. It has to be horrible having to be on that jury.

sbsquarepants · 18-06-2019 3:42pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I have the complete opposite opinion of Boy B. If he was easily led, he would have cried like a baby in his first interview and owned up. To me he’s a psychopath and pathological lier who could have easily been the mastermind behind the whole thing.

How two sick individuals managed to be in the same school at the same time is scary.

Exactly my view of him. A sick and dangerous individual - I sincerely hope they both get what they deserve in prison!

El_Bee · 18-06-2019 3:42pm

With the good news that Justice was served will come the bad news of the lenient sentences they receive, we're in desperate need of judicial/sentencing reform in Ireland.

Small Wonder · 18-06-2019 3:43pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Read my post slowly and repeatedly if necessary

I've read both of your posts on the topic and neither of them answer my question.

MrFresh · 18-06-2019 3:44pm

Great news. Dampened only be the idea they'll spend the next four years in the summer camp known as Oberstown before they face any real punishment.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-06-2019 3:44pm

Amalgam wrote: »

I'm glad the proper verdict has come about.

I couldn't watch TV at all while this trial was on, the coverage was quite salacious at times and it affected me whenever it would come on. This really was a case that seeped into your mind and lurked in your thoughts, for no good reason.

I guarantee you we'll here from one or both of the guilty as they grow up into adulthood.

Visions of the James Bulger accused, spring to mind..

The only thing that was a ''positive' for me was the noticeable lack of hand wringing on behalf of A & B.

One of those boys, Robert Thompson, has gone on to lead a blameless life. The other has repeatedly come to the attention of the police. So it seems that it can be possible to rehabilitate child killers, but that it's not always the case.

Tomw86 · 18-06-2019 3:45pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

You speak as if you think parents would always behave rationally in these situations. Can you imagine the sheer horror of hearing your child, who you'd loved since they were a baby, had done something like this? Because I can't and I haven't a clue how I'd behave or react.

No, I can't imagine what that is like. But I am rational enough that after hearing the evidence, and being convinced they were guilty, I would make sure they took their punishment in the right way - pleading guilty.

Faugheen · 18-06-2019 3:46pm

Wombatman wrote: »

.... and that's enough for a murder conviction?

When you lied and said you weren’t there and left them at the park, then with every Garda interview you keep lying but start to place yourself more and more towards the scene to the point you admit to watching her start to die, then yes it is.

18-06-2019 3:46pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

perhaps they did advise them to plead guilty but the kids were free to ignore that advice. If you ask a kid to plead guilty and tell them they will definitely do time if they do or they can plead not guilty and take their chances what do you think a kid would do?

If that were the case and honestly, I don’t think it was..... a teenager being able to make the very grown up decision of whether to plead guilty or not guilty should be treated in every other area of their lives as an adult. Including naming of them.

If anyone deserved anonymity it was Ana but this started as a missing persons case so she didn’t get afforded that.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-06-2019 3:47pm

Tomw86 wrote: »

No, I can't imagine what that is like. But I am rational enough that after hearing the evidence, and being convinced they were guilty, I would make sure they took their punishment in the right way - pleading guilty.

I was talking about the parents, and how they behaved.

shesty · 18-06-2019 3:47pm

When you read that RTE report of how the interviews with Boy B played out, I can see how the jury found him guilty.Fair play to the gardai.

Wombatman · 18-06-2019 3:47pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

He lied about everything . Read the evidence .

So he murdered her then?

Is there proof that he led Ana to her death in the full knowledge of what Boy A was about to do? Text messages, emails, recordings maybe?

MrFresh · 18-06-2019 3:47pm

Wombatman wrote: »

.... and that's enough for a murder conviction?

He led her to the location, provided the tape and lied about it afterwards. It proves participation in the murder.

Amalgam · 18-06-2019 3:48pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

One of those boys, Robert Thompson, has gone on to lead a blameless life. The other has repeatedly come to the attention of the police. So it seems that it can be possible to rehabilitate child killers, but that it's not always the case.

Mary Bell springs to mind. She is a mother/grandmother at this point. That doesn't stop the tabloid articles where family members of her victims voice recriminations about her having children of her own, having killed theirs..

sbsquarepants · 18-06-2019 3:48pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

One of those boys, Robert Thompson, has gone on to lead a blameless life. The other has repeatedly come to the attention of the police. So it seems that it can be possible to rehabilitate child killers, but that it's not always the case.

You're concept of what constitutes a blameless life is a tad askew.

Torturing and killing a toddler renders you far outside my definition of blameless!

Keyzer · 18-06-2019 3:48pm

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

No, obviously I don't.

Let me repeat that, in case you're intellectually challenged OBVIOUSLY I DON'T.

However, that doesn't stop me being of the opinion that, for a number of reasons, the taxpayer-funded defence lawyers should have advised their clients to plead guilty.

Now, away with you. Go and annoy someone else with your nonsense.

You should really educate yourself on how the legal system works before turning this thread into a platform for you to argue with other people.

It's amazing how a thread about a girl who was callously murdered turns into a fiasco so soon.

God love Ana and her parents, may she rest in peace...

Nerdlingr · 18-06-2019 3:49pm

Wombatman wrote: »

.... and that's enough for a murder conviction?

You stated there was no DNA evidence that put Boy B at the scene.
There didn't need to be. As I said, he put himself there. He stated he led her to the house and saw the attack take place.
The jury obviously took all evidence presented to them into consideration to reach their verdict, and not just whether Boy B's DNA was at the scene or not.

Damien360 · 18-06-2019 3:49pm

Dublin Spur wrote: »

great day for justice system
now don't ruin it with soft sentencing

I fail to see why the sentencing would suddenly be harsh. Day in and day out sees very soft sentencing for very serious matters. As minors, can the judge apply adult sentencing at all ? Or has the internet decided this is how it should be done ?

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-06-2019 3:50pm

Amalgam wrote: »

Mary Bell springs to mind. She is a mother/grandmother at this point. That doesn't stop the tabloid articles where family members of her victims voice recriminations about her having children of her own, having killed theirs..

I think Mary Bell and Robert Thompson both had horrific childhoods. Perhaps being taken away from their parents and sent to reform institutions was the saving of them. Whereas children who come from stable homes and still commit vicious crimes may not be as easy to rehabilitate.

shesty · 18-06-2019 3:50pm

Wombatman wrote: »

So he murdered her then?

Is there proof that he led Ana to her death in the full knowledge of what Boy A was about to do? Text messages, emails, recordings maybe?

Read the report.The judge instructed they could find him guilty if they thought he knew that Boy B was going to do this.The entire case against him was based on the evidence he gave himself about what happened.They decided to show the interviews, rather than read transcripts, to let the jury see body language, tone etc, most likely because they knew that was the only way they would get a true picture of what the boy was at.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-06-2019 3:51pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You're concept of what constitutes a blameless life is a tad askew.

Torturing and killing a toddler renders you far outside my definition of blameless!

I said 'went on to live a blameless life'. I think it was perfectly clear what I meant.

El_Bee · 18-06-2019 3:52pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

One of those boys, Robert Thompson, has gone on to lead a blameless life. The other has repeatedly come to the attention of the police. So it seems that it can be possible to rehabilitate child killers, but that it's not always the case.

It baffles me how the steps in his rehabilitation is not public knowledge and made more widely known, because they obviously got it very right with him, yet the other one should have never seen the outside of a cell again.

yourdeadwright · 18-06-2019 3:52pm

The big question is as a society what do we do with kids like this ?

Should they be cast away and locked up forever or can they be reformed ?

Iv no idea what the answer is ,

I hope Ana's family feel some kind of justice In this although its impossible for them to ever feel whole again ,

Iv no idea what kind of families the boys came from but they have also lost there children to this whole horrific case,

Please god its the last time we see anything like this in the country for another hundred or so years ,

Amalgam · 18-06-2019 3:52pm

If one of the accused is found to have an incurable pathology, could he be held at the CMH, at some point, after prison.

Wasn't that the case for Malcolm MacArthur?

Tomw86 · 18-06-2019 3:53pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

I was talking about the parents, and how they behaved.

So was I - I cannot honestly see how they think they behaved anything but in a poor manner.

Small Wonder · 18-06-2019 3:53pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

I said 'went on to live a blameless life'. I think it was perfectly clear what I meant.

It was perfectly clear. The level of reading comprehension in After Hours leaves a lot to be desired.

Faugheen · 18-06-2019 3:53pm

Wombatman wrote: »

So he murdered her then?

Is there proof that he led Ana to her death in the full knowledge of what Boy A was about to do? Text messages, emails, recordings maybe?

He gave Boy A the builders tape - therefore proving participation.

You don’t need hard evidence for every single case. This was all about what came it if his own mouth.

sbsquarepants · 18-06-2019 3:53pm

Priscilla Mushy Banner wrote: »

I said 'went on to live a blameless life'. I think it was perfectly clear what I meant.

You were, and so was I.

Some crimes are unforgiveable - Thompson is anything but blameless, he should die in a cell.

blackwhite · 18-06-2019 3:53pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Thanks for your insight.

So, no guarantee of a life sentence for the boys. It's an option but not a certainty.

Exactly.

Given sentencing in the past for juvenile murder convictions has tended towards imposing life sentences, and the sexual element involved as an aggravating factor, I'd be surprised (and disgusted) if Justice McDermott deviated from the maximum.

Worth remembering that, given our parole laws, any sentence for 14 years or longer is effectively the same a life sentence.
Sentences of 8-14 years are eligible for parole after half the sentence is served. 14 years or longer (including life) then eligibility for parole starts at 7 years.

MrFresh · 18-06-2019 3:54pm

I'm pretty sure the only sentence for murder is life.

yourdeadwright · 18-06-2019 3:54pm

El_Bee wrote: »

It baffles me how the steps in his rehabilitation is not public knowledge and made more widely known, because they obviously got it very right with him, yet the other one should have never seen the outside of a cell again.

I read he still gets help and its one of the reason's they don't disclose how his rehabilitation went as he gets it and be easy for someone to track him down or figure out who he is ,

Small Wonder · 18-06-2019 3:54pm

El_Bee wrote: »

It baffles me how the steps in his rehabilitation is not public knowledge and made more widely known, because they obviously got it very right with him, yet the other one should have never seen the outside of a cell again.

Especially as the police made it quite clear that they thought Thompson was the ring-leader. "Pure evil" is how he was described.

Dial Hard · 18-06-2019 3:55pm

Tomw86 wrote: »

So was I - I cannot honestly see how they think they behaved anything but in a poor manner.

Boy B's father certainly behaved in a less than stellar manner after the verdicts were read.

"When the judge had finished he began to verbally abuse the gardai,

“You bunch of scumbags, you f***ing pricks. Innocent boy,” he was heard to say."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/conor-feehan-heavy-emotion-in-courtroom-as-guilty-verdicts-returned-38230456.html

NuttyMcNutty · 18-06-2019 3:55pm

Gerianam wrote: »

The sad fact is that there are children today, now, as we speak subjected to the same level of cruel and horrendous bullying that poor Ana endured.

Exactly, time for parents to be parents and start teaching their kids about standing up for others when this sh1t starts in their circles.

18-06-2019 3:55pm

MrFresh wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the only sentence for murder is life.

Life never really means life though, does it?

Wombatman · 18-06-2019 3:56pm

shesty wrote: »

Read the report.The judge instructed they could find him guilty if they thought he knew that Boy B was going to do this.The entire case against him was based on the evidence he gave himself about what happened.They decided to show the interviews, rather than read transcripts, to let the jury see body language, tone etc, most likely because they knew that was the only way they would get a true picture of what the boy was at.

So you are saying Boy B's conviction was down to lay people interpreting body language, tone etc.

Is there evidence he laid a finger on Ana?
Is there evidence he acted in the full knowledge of what Boy A was about to do?

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-06-2019 3:56pm

El_Bee wrote: »

It baffles me how the steps in his rehabilitation is not public knowledge and made more widely known, because they obviously got it very right with him, yet the other one should have never seen the outside of a cell again.

I think they probably both received the same treatment, but I suppose how effective it is depends on what motivated them from the start.

Robert Thompson, as I said, had a pretty horrific and violent childhood and being removed from that environment may have been what was chiefly needed to give him a chance of rehabilitation.

Jon Venebles background, while not perfect, didn't seem to be anywhere as bad so maybe there were more complex issues at play with him.

Hurrache · 18-06-2019 3:56pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

Boy B's father certainly behaved in a less than stellar manner after the verdicts were read.

"When the judge had finished he began to verbally abuse the gardai,

“You bunch of scumbags, you f***ing pricks. Innocent boy,” he was heard to say."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/conor-feehan-heavy-emotion-in-courtroom-as-guilty-verdicts-returned-38230456.html

Wow, if that's true, that's just astounding.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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