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Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

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    #92
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    This will only feed back into the price of panels going up, so no benefit to Joe and Mary Domestic.
    This proposed system, like all the grant schemes here are fundamentally skewed to benefit the supplier of the hardware.
    Just look at how profitable Ki**span got from insulation and solar thermal grants through lobbying of, initially FF Government, making millionaires of a few of the elite.

    I dunno if that's true, there's plenty of budget panels around despite far more generous supports in other countries, I doubt they'll raise prices because of little old Ireland

    More likely the installers will try to raise prices, but for anyone who will source their own panels, inverter and battery there will still be good value to be had. If installers raise their prices too much then everyone will just buy their own gear and that'll take away a major source of income for them

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #93
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    KCross wrote: »
    It’s not a grant scheme though. We already have a grant scheme with inflated prices as you suggest. Hopefully they ditch that.

    I dunno, as someone who isn't eligible for the grant, I'd prefer if they expanded it

    Hopefully they at least get rid of that dumb requirement for houses to be built before 2011

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #94
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,961 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    KCross wrote: »
    The assessment is that you wouldn’t have an ROI then which means you won’t have the wide scale uptake

    LOL, 95% of the people wouldn't be able to do a proper ROI calculation either way. The wholesale rate of the moment is good enough for me. And prices of PV hardware are so low that we don't need any stupid subsidies on those either

    The payback time will be very quick if you buy at good prices and install DIY. Even if you get the job done by an installer, the ROI will be much better than any money in a savings account

    Unkel's proposal: zero subsidies, FIT unlimited quantity at wholesale rate of the moment only (could be negative), no restrictions on who can fit where (houses, offices, farms) any age of the building. Zero government / ESB involvement, just a diktat to the utility providers

    Either that or net metering...


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    #95
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    LOL, 95% of the people wouldn't be able to do a proper ROI calculation either way. The wholesale rate of the moment is good enough for me. And prices of PV hardware are so low that we don't need any stupid subsidies on those either

    The payback time will be very quick if you buy at good prices and install DIY. Even if you get the job done by an installer, the ROI will be much better than any money in a savings account

    Unkel's proposal: zero subsidies, FIT unlimited quantity at wholesale rate of the moment only (could be negative), no restrictions on who can fit where (houses, offices, farms) any age of the building. Zero government / ESB involvement, just a diktat to the utility providers

    Either that or net metering...

    To be fair, you're not exactly an average electricity consumer as I recall :D

    I'm in a similar boat, all my heating, cooking and transportation is electric. Currently we're consuming 8,500kWh per year, and if the wife gets an EV or PHEV it'll move to over 10,000kWh

    I'd absolutely be intending to install the biggest PV array I can.

    The irony is that this is the way many houses will go as we switch to EVs and new build houses and retrofits almost all use heat pumps now. With all the focus on indoor air quality, I suspect a lot of people will move to electric cooking as well

    So this concept of the 'average' PV system being 3kWp is going to be out of date very quickly IMO

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #96
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,961 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I don't export any electricity in the winter months, that's for sure. And that's even with my battery switched off :D


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    #97
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,084 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    LOL, 95% of the people wouldn't be able to do a proper ROI calculation either way. The wholesale rate of the moment is good enough for me. And prices of PV hardware are so low that we don't need any stupid subsidies on those either

    The payback time will be very quick if you buy at good prices and install DIY. Even if you get the job done by an installer, the ROI will be much better than any money in a savings account

    Unkel's proposal: zero subsidies, FIT unlimited quantity at wholesale rate of the moment only (could be negative), no restrictions on who can fit where (houses, offices, farms) any age of the building. Zero government / ESB involvement, just a diktat to the utility providers

    Either that or net metering...

    And you can bet there would be little or no uptake if you went with that. DIY installs only apply to a tiny minority of people. Most people will want a one-stop shop and some minimum pricing.

    The CEP payment is proposed to be limited to 15 years at which point, presumably, it would just be the CEG which is a zero subisdy FiT so you are getting alot of what you are asking for here but the CEP is there to encourage people to get on board.


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    #98
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,961 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Any idea of the split in value per kWh exported between these two payments?


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    #99
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,084 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    Any idea of the split in value per kWh exported between these two payments?

    Well, the CEG is based off the DAM
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115918720&postcount=16

    Not sure if VAT would need to be added to that or not so that gives you a ballpark for what CEG would be worth.

    No specific values given on what CEP would be worth other than they mention it should be set at "a rate that is below the retail rates paid by the prosumer". That doesnt really give much away but I'd be guessing maybe upto another 5c/kWh topup.... pure guess.... and thats only for new eligible installs after Jun 2020 so existing generators will be on CEG only.

    If CEG is in or around night rate electricity I think that would be reasonable. Net metering, while great, isnt realistic.


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    #100
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,756 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    To be fair, you're not exactly an average electricity consumer as I recall :D

    I'm in a similar boat, all my heating, cooking and transportation is electric. Currently we're consuming 8,500kWh per year, and if the wife gets an EV or PHEV it'll move to over 10,000kWh

    I'd absolutely be intending to install the biggest PV array I can.

    The irony is that this is the way many houses will go as we switch to EVs and new build houses and retrofits almost all use heat pumps now. With all the focus on indoor air quality, I suspect a lot of people will move to electric cooking as well

    So this concept of the 'average' PV system being 3kWp is going to be out of date very quickly IMO

    LOL, wish I was at the 10MW level (I think MW is 1,000kW?), with 2 EVs and normal working conditions I'm 24MW a year, immersion 365days, storage heater Nov-March then usual domestic appliances and thirsty home cinema.

    While FIT is nice I never factored it given Ireland's inept attitude and my full faith that the ESB will do everything in their power to render it financially meaningless.
    We should be matching our PV arrays to personal consumption and avoiding excess production IMHO, then FIT is irrelevant.

    If FIT, then net metering as early incentive as we need as much sustainable electricity production as possible.
    I've no electrical background but can see the need to move away from 60amp houses to 100amp, three phase is common enough in other countries but jazuz don't have that in Ireland, "sure what would you be doing that for" attitude.

    Ireland/ESB want to hold onto old ways, ESB need to move away from restrictive attitudes and move to open arms, we need large battery banks like Australia so excess becomes null and void.
    Blanket release of Planning Restrictions, boost the EV sector.
    I could go on, but what do I know

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

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    #101
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,961 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    It's sad really. Almost 100 years ago the ESB were a very progressive organisation with a visionary leader. Look at them now.


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    #102
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    It's sad really. Almost 100 years ago the ESB were a very progressive organisation with a visionary leader. Look at them now.

    Yeah they still very much have that mentality of doing as little as possible and claim it's because they're underfunded

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #103
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    slave1 wrote: »
    LOL, wish I was at the 10MW level (I think MW is 1,000kW?), with 2 EVs and normal working conditions I'm 24MW a year, immersion 365days, storage heater Nov-March then usual domestic appliances and thirsty home cinema.

    While FIT is nice I never factored it given Ireland's inept attitude and my full faith that the ESB will do everything in their power to render it financially meaningless.
    We should be matching our PV arrays to personal consumption and avoiding excess production IMHO, then FIT is irrelevant.

    If FIT, then net metering as early incentive as we need as much sustainable electricity production as possible.
    I've no electrical background but can see the need to move away from 60amp houses to 100amp, three phase is common enough in other countries but jazuz don't have that in Ireland, "sure what would you be doing that for" attitude.

    Ireland/ESB want to hold onto old ways, ESB need to move away from restrictive attitudes and move to open arms, we need large battery banks like Australia so excess becomes null and void.
    Blanket release of Planning Restrictions, boost the EV sector.
    I could go on, but what do I know

    Okay...buy a heat pump, it'll save you some electricity at least :D

    I mostly agree with what you're saying, self consumption is the best way for small generators, a FIT is best used to give a better ROI and to stop renewable energy being wasted.

    I don't really agree with people who intend to make money from a FIT, if someone wants to do that then it's a commercial enterprise and should be treated as such.

    No problem with a farmer who wants to put hundreds of solar panels in a field, but it's not really a micro generator

    There definitely needs to be more emphasis on energy storage, batteries and pumped hydro and similar. This would reduce our need for inefficient gas plants to be on standby for any shortfalls

    Hopefully as part of the climate action plan they hugely overhaul the planning processes for renewables, and the grid connection process. The ESB are pretty good at dragging their heels on grid connections and licenses

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #104
    citizen6
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭citizen6


    The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

    I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.


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    #105
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,084 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    citizen6 wrote: »
    The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

    I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

    They've defined microgeneration as anything upto 50kWp so I doubt they will exclude any installs from participating but they do seem to favour capping the payments somehow.

    You are second guessing a government department though, so its very much your call!


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    #106
    Geeyfds53573
    Registered Users Posts: 427 ✭✭Geeyfds53573


    citizen6 wrote: »
    The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

    I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

    About to do the same and thinking the same, I may not have been able to get over 6 anyhow


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    #107
    buzz11
    Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭buzz11


    Did I read somewhere that the EU directive is implemented in June...does that mean there will be a FIT scheme of some sort by then?


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    #108
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,084 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    buzz11 wrote: »
    Did I read somewhere that the EU directive is implemented in June...does that mean there will be a FIT scheme of some sort by then?

    I think it means Ireland have to have it transcribed into our law by then but it doesnt mean you'll immediately start getting a cheque in the post! :)

    Ultimately they have to get the system up and running and you'll need an export meter so you might have to wait in line to get that. Its not clear yet exactly what will happen but we should see some movement one way or the other by summer.


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    #109
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,961 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Ireland is always the last in the class. Last to implement the NCT, last to implement water charges. Oh wait.


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    #110
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭championc


    Last year, I exported 133kWh. Oh no, I missed out on about a fiver !!!

    I certainly expect to export much less this year after replacing my batteries, but my god, you'd need to have some amount of excess to make anything any way worthwhile


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    #111
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    Ireland is always the last in the class. Last to implement the NCT, last to implement water charges. Oh wait.

    First for the smoking ban to be fair

    And plastic bag tax

    Generally we're last on anything that involves the government giving away money, but first when it comes to increasing the tax base

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #112
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,961 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    championc wrote: »
    you'd need to have some amount of excess to make anything any way worthwhile

    Let's say for simplicity sake you exported zero. And let's say as an investment you added another 4kwp array, then you'd export all of the production of that extra array, again for simplicity sake. That is about 4,000kWh in Dublin south facing. Let's say the fit is 9c. This will make you €360 per year

    4kwp is about 11 current panels of 360W. Let's say you can get these at about €115 incl VAT each, let's say you buy an inverter for €350 and materials for €200, and DIY this job. Total cost €1815

    Or a pay back period of just 5 years

    That's a superb investment in my book


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    #113
    holdfast
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭holdfast


    Yes in simple payback that is 5 years. But simple payback is a blunt instrument. Some people have borrowing the money thus costing them more or get could have got high rate of interest return like a pension investment with 40%. Everything is a balanced versus the opportunity. Sorry playing the devil advocate there. But the best value is consuming it all.


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    #114
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    So far im less than impressed. The PSO levey will go up over time to fund the FIT. So basically we all pay to pay ourselves (or the lucky few) back for electricity that would otherwise be purchased at wholesale prices onto the grid.

    Next we hear of needing a B2 BER. I have brought my house from a D to a C1. (the assessor would not help in any way in assessing what values the DEP software was giving so you are at the mercy of how competent the Assessor is But would need to do it all again and spend 10s of thousands to bring it up any further. The BER should have no bearing on FIT. There is already a requirement to qualify for the grant.


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    #115
    idc
    Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭idc


    holdfast wrote: »
    Sorry playing the devil advocate there. But the best value is consuming it all.

    The consultation does mention a 30 % limit on feed in to encourage self consumption.

    Likewise the use of BER is to ensure people spend money improving whole energy use in house ie heating/insulation and not just cover there house with as many panels as possible!!


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    #116
    mp3guy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    idc wrote: »
    The consultation does mention a 30 % limit on feed in to encourage self consumption.

    Likewise the use of BER is to ensure people spend money improving whole energy use in house ie heating/insulation and not just cover there house with as many panels as possible!!

    Covering your house in panels will exactly do this; inflate your BER. There's no cap.


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    #117
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.


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    #118
    lightson
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭lightson


    Em I fairly sure it took mine from a c to a b think that’s big enough jump. The impact could be relative to the size of your house etc


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    #119
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    lightson wrote: »
    Em I fairly sure it took mine from a c to a b think that’s big enough jump. The impact could be relative to the size of your house etc

    Solar PV panels or thermal panels? I thought only the thermal ones counted towards BER

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #120
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    No PV count alright,

    Mine went from C2 to C1 but the same BER assessor used his old figures from 7 years ago ( I think) and just updated the figures from the old to the new DEAP software. His recommendations to improve remained a copy of his old ones. Despite attic insulation changes and other improvements


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    #121
    mp3guy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    phester28 wrote: »
    Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.

    Went from B2 to A2. Know someone else who went from B3 to A3. It has a huge impact. See this post for more info https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115814863&postcount=33.

    Sounds like you had a grumpy assessor.


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