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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #6572
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    WRC is a waste of money. For rail you need population density. You need to be shifting 3-400 people at the time and for commuting you need regular service not 2-3 a day each way. As well you need to get people to there place of work nearly as fast or faster than by car. This includes waiting times between trips. Finally it has to be competitively priced.


    You seem to be arguing a completely different point to the one Pete is making.


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    #6573
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    I fail to see the idea that throwing money at a public transportation system that will serve no benefit is a good ambition. If that money was used improving bus services between the two cities and from towns along the route it would be much more beneficial.

    We saw this with the Limerick to Galway rail service, usage figures do not justify the spend. That money if redirected to other transport projects give the area's a much better public transport system.

    I would hope that the investigations taking place would include consideration of how to improve bus service along the new corridor also! I agree with Sam that a lot of the possible 'improvements' to the Cork-Limerick route have already been planed for some time, and this is a great opportunity to get them done, as has been stated, the majority of the route is also the Cork Dublin line so improved times there are a benefit, works around LJ benefit both Dublin/Cork and Cork/Limerick routes. The only bit that really has an 'added' cost would be whatever improvements are needed to LJ to Limerick. closing level crossings, a passing loop or two maybe.

    Arguing that the connection of Limerick(3) to Galway(4) via a fairly roundabout route is the same as connecting Cork(2) and Limerick(3) primarily via one of the two most important intercity rail routes in Ireland is a bit disingenuous.


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    #6574
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,156 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    You seem to be arguing a completely different point to the one Pete is making.

    Maybe I am maybe not. But the idea of building infrastructure because it may be a good thing without a cost benefit analysis is crazy.

    Would it not make more sense to build a dedicated bus corridor for buses only from the center of Limerick and Cork out to you he motorways. In Limerick's case it would be a 100 million project at most. In Corks case maybe twice go three times that. This would give on time bus journeys not just to inter city but also to 60-70% of local bus services that are looking for access to the center of these cities. Maybe consider electrifying these corridors as well as electrification of one lane of the motorway or adding an extra electrified lane for busses. Trains are only a bus with steel wheels that needs a dedicated line

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #6575
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Maybe I am maybe not. But the idea of building infrastructure because it may be a good thing without a cost benefit analysis is crazy.

    Would it not make more sense to build a dedicated bus corridor for buses only from the center of Limerick and Cork out to you he motorways. In Limerick's case it would be a 100 million project at most. In Corks case maybe twice go three times that. This would give on time bus journeys not just to inter city but also to 60-70% of local bus services that are looking for access to the center of these cities. Maybe consider electrifying these corridors as well as electrification of one lane of the motorway or adding an extra electrified lane for busses. Trains are only a bus with steel wheels that needs a dedicated line

    I don't think modern democratic governments are in the habit of not doing cost/benefit analysis on large scale infra projects, so I don't see why you think this would be a special case.

    The idea would be to determine the optimal Public Transport improvements, along the corridor so that you avoid simply creating a wider (and in this case far safer) pipe for cars. If they decide that means dedicated hard shoulder bus lanes with park and rides at each junction then fantastic, if they price it out and decide the knock on benefits to the cork/dublin rail corridor are too good to pass up then the rail gets improved, if they realise that to spend the required 'road' money they need to do both bus and rail to get the 2:1 ratio pt:road to work then all the better.


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    #6576
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Maybe I am maybe not. But the idea of building infrastructure because it may be a good thing without a cost benefit analysis is crazy.

    Would it not make more sense to build a dedicated bus corridor for buses only from the center of Limerick and Cork out to you he motorways. In Limerick's case it would be a 100 million project at most. In Corks case maybe twice go three times that. This would give on time bus journeys not just to inter city but also to 60-70% of local bus services that are looking for access to the center of these cities. Maybe consider electrifying these corridors as well as electrification of one lane of the motorway or adding an extra electrified lane for busses. Trains are only a bus with steel wheels that needs a dedicated line

    So you want to spend €X00,000,000 on short sections of bus corridor but are against investing a fraction of that in making improvements to the existing rail lines between Cork and Limerick (most of which also carries Cork - Dublin trains)? The rail lines already have their dedicated corridors into the city centres.


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    #6577
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    I don't think modern democratic governments are in the habit of not doing cost/benefit analysis on large scale infra projects, so I don't see why you think this would be a special case.

    The idea would be to determine the optimal Public Transport improvements, along the corridor so that you avoid simply creating a wider (and in this case far safer) pipe for cars. If they decide that means dedicated hard shoulder bus lanes with park and rides at each junction then fantastic, if they price it out and decide the knock on benefits to the cork/dublin rail corridor are too good to pass up then the rail gets improved, if they realise that to spend the required 'road' money they need to do both bus and rail to get the 2:1 ratio pt:road to work then all the better.

    Of course there is cost/benefit analysis on large scale infra projects, under the terms of the Public Spending Code.

    The 2:1 ratio pt:road is for the overall Transport budget, not every individual project.


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    #6578
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    So you want to spend €X00,000,000 on short sections of bus corridor but are against investing a fraction of that in making improvements to the existing rail lines between Cork and Limerick (most of which also carries Cork - Dublin trains)? The rail lines already have their dedicated corridors into the city centres.

    It is clear from the mood music that the M20 is going to go ahead, and probably along the N20 corridor.

    What this talk about PT, and in particular, Rail transport will do a lot to improve the L to C service if it is taken seriously. The main problem is the lack of rolling stock, otherwise they could start adding services now - it is unfortunate the layout of LJ is so bad. Currently there is no direct service L to C, and what service there is takes the best part of two hours.


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    #6579
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It is clear from the mood music that the M20 is going to go ahead, and probably along the N20 corridor.

    What this talk about PT, and in particular, Rail transport will do a lot to improve the L to C service if it is taken seriously. The main problem is the lack of rolling stock, otherwise they could start adding services now - it is unfortunate the layout of LJ is so bad. Currently there is no direct service L to C, and what service there is takes the best part of two hours.

    Yes, there could be a decent service if the level crossings removal already in motion happen plus further upgrades to LJ and maybe a passing loop between LJ and Limerick. It wouldn't cost outrageous money either. The rolling stock issue will be addressed by new stock orders (most likely from DART Expansion) freeing up existing stock to be reallocated.


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    #6580
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Of course there is cost/benefit analysis on large scale infra projects, under the terms of the Public Spending Code.

    The 2:1 ratio pt:road is for the overall Transport budget, not every individual project.

    I'm aware the 2:1 is the overall budget Pete, just mean that looking at both Bus and Rail options along the corridor as a concurrent idea to the M20 can help shift the budget spending more towards the PT end of the scale, if part of the 'road' cost is actually for implementing a planned-from-the-start QBC where appropriate along the M20 then that amount can be fairly shifted over to the 'Public Transport' side of the equation


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    #6581
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    I'm aware the 2:1 is the overall budget Pete, just mean that looking at both Bus and Rail options along the corridor as a concurrent idea to the M20 can help shift the budget spending more towards the PT end of the scale, if part of the 'road' cost is actually for implementing a planned-from-the-start QBC where appropriate along the M20 then that amount can be fairly shifted over to the 'Public Transport' side of the equation

    But the new scheme will be starting about 10km south of Limerick city centre and maybe 3km north of Cork city centre. Any QBCs will be in and on approach to the city centres, outside the scope of this project. Such work would be better done as part of the BusConnects plans for each city. Buses can and do run on motorways without QBCs so I don't see the relevance to the M20.


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    #6582
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    I'm aware the 2:1 is the overall budget Pete, just mean that looking at both Bus and Rail options along the corridor as a concurrent idea to the M20 can help shift the budget spending more towards the PT end of the scale, if part of the 'road' cost is actually for implementing a planned-from-the-start QBC where appropriate along the M20 then that amount can be fairly shifted over to the 'Public Transport' side of the equation

    A QBC would be unnecessary IMO. Especially on the Limerick end where the motorway will have plenty of capacity and where it's the M7 that sees the congestion (Remember that the scheme will terminate 10km from Limerick where the current M20 stub ends). Park and rides close to the terminal junctions (Bus in Limerick and rail in cork) would make more sense.


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    #6583
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    A QBC would be unnecessary IMO. Especially on the Limerick end where the motorway will have plenty of capacity and where it's the M7 that sees the congestion (Remember that the scheme will terminate 10km from Limerick where the current M20 stub ends). Park and rides close to the terminal junctions (Bus in Limerick and rail in cork) would make more sense.

    Sorry when I said QBC I was more considering it as 'Bus corridor' designed in from the outset.

    Junction design considering park and rides and fast access for buses, buses not having to traipse all the way into town centres along the route, maybe with shuttle buses linking the town and the junction.

    I'll leave determining if actual bus lanes are needed to the engineers, but the Cork end might have some merit.


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    #6584
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Existing budget might not cover the M20. :rolleyes:

    https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/existing-budgets-may-not-cover-cost-of-m20-motorway-project/


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    #6585
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Course it won't, thats because we'll have several years of planning, route selection and all that before any (expensive) CPOs are required.

    I wouldn't worry just yet.


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    #6586
    steeler j
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Course it won't, thats because we'll have several years of planning, route selection and all that before any (expensive) CPOs are required.

    I wouldn't worry just yet.

    Get it past planning first


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    #6587
    PKB1
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭PKB1


    Does anybody have plans of the 3 routes that were proposed last time between O’Rourkes Cross and Charleville?


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    #6588
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    The problem with the idea of an intercity service is the failure to grasp that 80% of the traffic on the N20 originates on the N20. End to end is not a huge volume of traffic. You then have to understand that most traffic is not going to either city center, On the Cork side it is often going into Ringaskiddy, Little Island or out to Ballincollig, you do however have the offices developments on the South Mall and on Alberts Quay. The university is about a mile from the city center As well CUH is well outside the center of the city.

    However on the other side in Limerick the city center is a virtual desert for larger businesses, you have the large Ind Est in Raheen and Castletroy ( the factories here are spread over nearly two miles) as well as smaller sized one along Childers road, UHL (hospital) in Raheen. To add to that you have UL in Castletroy. Finally you have Shannon Airport 15 miles out from the Tunnell which solved access to it.

    The idea that a train track will manage to encourage commuters away from cars is not realistic, a structured bus service might encourage some to leave the cars behind

    Replying late to this comment

    On the Limerick side - Raheen - already served by rail although disused currently on the Foynes line

    Childers road has the railway running beside it already, so a halt behind St Brigids NS

    Another halt where the railway crosses the old City canal would leave a 10 min cycle to UL along the Shannon , add another behind Thomond student accomodation

    And this is without any new right of way its all there right now.

    Add back in the careys road overbridge - alignment is all still there and free and you now have a bouncing local rail network thats touched all the limerick bases for very very little costs compared to any other city in Ireland.

    Park and ride at either end

    PS forgot a stop at the Crescent as well would not be impossible at all plus a park and ride on the N69 too , and as with the above, all on existing formations


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    #6589
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    Any reason why the M28 forum is currently closed? Next court listing for 21st September.

    Mod: The M28 thread was closed because of the discussion was going round in circles.

    Perhaps you might open a new thread when the court case opens.


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    #6590
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Always a plus to see the most vocal pro-M20 TD in recent years become chairman of the Committe on Transport

    https://twitter.com/kodonnellLK/status/1303348422515339265


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    #6591
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Route options to be clear by December

    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-to-Limerick-motorway-route-options-to-be-clear-by-December--a48a2e2a-5179-465f-a9db-dc79ccee4eca-ds


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    #6592
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,675 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-to-Limerick-motorway-route-options-to-be-clear-by-December--a48a2e2a-5179-465f-a9db-dc79ccee4eca-ds
    D'Echo wrote:
    The Director of Roads also confirmed to Green Party Councillor Alan O’Connor that rail options were still being explored.

    During a Q&A at County Hall, Mr Barrett said, rail options are still included. “Direct links from Charleville to Limerick and then upgrading of the link from Charleville to Limerick junction and onto Limerick are still included."
    You could read this as being that both options are included, but it also reads (badly) as considering doing one and then the other. Can't see them doing both?


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    #6593
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    serfboard wrote: »
    You could read this as being that both options are included, but it also reads (badly) as considering doing one and then the other. Can't see them doing both?

    Couldn't make out that bit myself.


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    #6594
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Limerick and Shannon Metropolitain Area Transport Study (LSMATS) recommends that the rail line between Limerick Colbert and Limerick Junction be double tracked and electrified, regardless of the M20 and from a different budget

    With plans afoot to electrify Dublin-Cork and upgrade Dublin-Cork to a high speed service means that the rail connection between Cork and Limerick is almost entirely taken care of by other projects outside the M20 study, and outside the M20 budget.

    All that would be left is to actually run direct trains between the 2 cities. With the proposed upgrades a 45min journey time and hourly service could easily be the norm. I can't see a new Charleville to Patrickswell rail connection happening given the other projects would deliver good journey times and frequency on existing lines.


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    #6595
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Echo wrote:
    Construction of the motorway is expected to commence in 2023 with an estimated completion date of 2027 Full details of the project objectives, the appraisal process, evaluation of scenarios to date and next steps are available on www.corklimerick.ie.

    Seems very very ambitious that timeline. I can't see this being shovel ready until 2025 at the earliest.


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    #6596
    steeler j
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    marno21 wrote: »
    Seems very very ambitious that timeline. I can't see this being shovel ready until 2025 at the earliest.

    Yes,I was thinking 2025 myself but it would be great to get it started in 2023 if they can


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    #6597
    raindodger
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭raindodger


    steeler j wrote: »
    Yes,I was thinking 2025 myself but it would be great to get it started in 2023 if they can
    whens the next election


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    #6598
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    raindodger wrote: »
    whens the next election

    2025 if this government survives until then.


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    #6599
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for LIDAR and orthophotographical survey for the project. Surveys are to be flown in March/April 2021.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/174703/1/0


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    #6600
    neddynasty
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭neddynasty


    marno21 wrote: »
    Tender out for LIDAR and orthophotographical survey for the project. Surveys are to be flown in March/April 2021.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/174703/1/0

    Curious, is that something they could do with drones rather than planes?


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    #6601
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Limerick74


    neddynasty wrote: »
    Curious, is that something they could do with drones rather than planes?

    Technically yes but the scale of project Is too big for a drone survey. Drones more suited to single site surveys rather than an 80km+ linear scheme.


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