The Bi-Lingual Auditory Assult By Newstalk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There is some quality stuff done in the Irish language medium in general, in fairness. But because many have a deep seated fear/loathing of the language (like the OP for some reason) they are not heard by many.

I'm sure there are but I'm not bothered learning just to listen to a show! They haven't invented radio with subtitles yet.
I'm also sure if TnaG hadn't subtitles or English language movies they would lose a lot of viewers.

It's not just loathing, many people aren't arsed learning something they're not going to use beyond what is essentially hobby usage.

I don't really care how easy or hard it is to learn. I'm just not bothered, it is of no use to me.

I don't have any romantic notions about language, if it was of use to me everyday, say if I lived full time in Russia it would be useful to learn at least the basics of Russian. It is just a tool for communication as far as I'm concerned.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I would agree 100% that it is a tool of communication with links in to my last point easiest way to learn a language, is to listen to others speaking and speak it yourself.

Once I brought my cousin to a Ciorcail Chomhrá. He would be like the OP very fearful of the Irish language. Would have never seen the point etc.
It was funny how eventually he got into it speaking a word here or there. He was mostly listening. And started thinking of Irish.

In the car back home says he 'jayus, I learnt more in those two/three hours than I did in years of Irish at school'

Its like having a door stepping Jehovah who just won't leave. Don't care about your links.
Not interested in learning. Full stop.

You like it, we get it, fair play. I couldn't give a rats ass.

whisky_galore wrote: »

You're confusing anger with apathy.

It seems like a rather strong apathy, considering how you post so vociferously about it. For one who has no interest, which seems odd.

Yet views language in general as a 'language of communication' in another post. Which I agree with.

In my opinion, there is a lot of contradictions with you, in any language!

whisky_galore wrote: »

You're confusing anger with apathy.

Obviously not apathy judging by the tone of your posts.
Elsewhere on the Radio forum .. you were keen to tar the Irish-speaking community on the basis of a few callers whinging on phone-in radio ... with your whingiing on social media.

You've got an axe to grind and any thread will do.

iffandonlyif wrote: »

It's staggering the level of ignorance from Irish language enthusiasts about why it is non-enthusiasts would rather not be forced to hear it. Fear, hatred, British allegiance... No! Quite simply, we resent having to listen to a language we don't understand and which is often promoted for political reasons. A language must earn its stripes as measured by number of speakers before it can be justifiably imposed on the overwhelming majority. Incidentally, I would be much more tolerant of an hourly Irish-language programme than one in English containing tokenistic, pidgin Irish.

Most of the stations have this slot at a quiet time of the week, eg: FM104 have an Irish slot on Sunday mornings where the presenter throws in sentences in English randomly as well which is even more jarring. I think it's a licensing thing that they have this show? Same as how the UK TV channels have signed programmes in the early hours.

Irish as a language has been on life support for decades. Anyone who can speak it to a reasonable degree has fluent English, and at this the level of state support and that it's still mandatory in schools is ridiculous at this point - especially as schools become more multicultural.

It's useless in daily life and sucks resources that could be better allocated elsewhere, but if you suggest letting it stand or fall on its own, the outrage from the middle-class types (who will label their kids with obscure Irish names as some sort of trendy fashion statement), and the few Irish speakers is massive (you can see it on this thread even) - it's "our" national language, it's our heritage, and so on, with those against it inferred to be somehow less Irish, less educated, or a West-Brit because of this.

Anyway.. I do remember this coming up on NT Breakfast during "Irish week" (which I never knew was a thing), and Shane committing to keeping it up afterwards. It's a pointless fashion statement as so much of the commentary on this show is anyway though. It's unintelligible to probably over 99% of their audience but if it's only a few phrases at the end of the show it's not a big deal, although I agree that there's no reason for it either.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Most of the stations have this slot at a quiet time of the week, eg: FM104 have an Irish slot on Sunday mornings where the presenter throws in sentences in English randomly as well which is even more jarring. I think it's a licensing thing that they have this show? Same as how the UK TV channels have signed programmes in the early hours.

Yeah basically out of prime time in case people's eyes and ears are hurt!

What is more annoying is the Top 40 countdown on Friday Nights on 2fm, it so tokenistic that its almost entirely in English. The presenter can't even seem to do the countdown in Irish, instead cupla focal as gaeilge followed by numbers in English.

Gaelic isn't a language.

Irish, nó an Gaeilge, is one of the two official languages of this State.

Anyone who objects to it assaulting their ears ought to **** off to any land where only English is spoken. I'd be happy to offer them a lift to the Airport.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Let's start with the hundreds of hours wasted at school reading the most dreary prose and poetry in a language 99% of the class won't use after leaving the classroom.

That is the problem with the way the language is taught and the school system, Not the language itself.

Is there the same feeling about French or German taught in Irish schools.
Or your own languages Italian and Latin.

There is plenty of ciorcal comhra you can go to and have a pint while conversing in Irish for example. No pressure just a nice atmosphere.

If you listened to the few Irish words on Newstalk you might pick up a few in non-academic/pressured environment.
If you find that is too much of a chore for you. Maybe something else is the issue?

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Lol.

The poster is correct though.

https://www.unitedlanguagegroup.com/blog/gaelic-irish-differences

Also people should be aware of the Irish Language Plan by the BAI

https://www.bai.ie/en/bai-publishes-irish-language-action-plan/ - which may explain the questions on this thread.

iffandonlyif wrote: »

I was laughing at the peculiar tendency to force unnecessary Irish words into English sentences, in this case 'nó an'.


As the article you link itself acknowledges, 'Gaelic' is perfectly acceptable when referring to the traditional language of Scotland, which completely refutes the common Gaeilgor argument that Gaelic is an adjective - "it's like calling English 'Germanic'," etc. While not the official name of the Irish language, only a dogmatist could object to its use. Luckily the Irish language has plenty of those.

I realise all that but Gaelic when discussing Irish is normally the phrase used by foreigners or for foreigners who use it in place of Irish.

https://www.bitesize.irish/gaelic-irish-language/

That is the key.

And Gaelic refers to Scots Gaelic.

For an Irish person to use the word 'Gaelic' to describe the Irish language they are:

1) Either talking to foreigners
2) Being deliberately obtuse
3) Trying to distant themselves from the Irish language

It is similar to Irish people who insist on saying 'TG four'


As for your question as to why people break into Irish when discussing the word 'Gaeilge'. It is because they are thinking in Irish and not English. I always find it charming. Similar to how a French person / person thinking in French would say 'en français'.

The thinking in English is a problem to be open to listening to Irish on the radio.
If more Irish people removed that baggage/mindset they would be open to listening to words and phrases. Like on the Newstalk radio for example. It is key to learning a language to think in that language. Take down the mental barriers. Now whether the OP is willing to do so is the OP's personal choice.

I realise there are some Irish language zealots who hate grammar errors or want the Kerry Reg changed to 'C'. Because there is no 'K' in Irish.

But this thread shows the ugly other side - it is indicative of the close minded, self hating Irish Person when it comes to the Irish Language. A psychologist would have a field day with it.

Elmo wrote: »

I though Kerry was KY reg, they get a single letter? I though only cities got single letters. Also all regs have the name of the county in Irish above the English letter.

I mean there is no 'K' in the Irish language so some people in the Kerry Gaeltacht want the 'KY' reg changed.

The Irish word for Kerry is 'Ciarraí'.

In my opinion it is unnecessary wanting to change the Kerry reg (just an example from the top of my head) and is the opposite end of the spectrum of this thread.

There has to be give and take. A middle ground imo.

iffandonlyif wrote: »

I agree, it's unusual to hear Irish people innocently saying Gaelic in place of Irish. But if people want to say Gaelic - provocatively or otherwise - they should be entitled to. None of this, 'It's Gaeilge because we've decided it is.' And, incidentally, I don't agree that it is unreasonable for a non-Irish speaker to say 'tee-gee-four'.


To describe it as self-hating is provocative. One is free to choose what parts of Irish history and culture they identify with. Many Irish choose not to identify with the Ascendancy. It would be wrong to accuse them of self-hatred.

I am calling it as it is. It is very transparent. The OP is a classic case of a self-hating Irish person.

Styling themselves as erudite, 'wordly' and so on. Yet have an illogical gripe where he/she described hearing a few words of Irish as an 'auditory assault' on an Irish radio station .

The two ways of thinking and the OP's use of language seem incongruent to my mind.

If a person truly sought and or appreciated knowledge and culture they would not have a vehement hatred of any language. Never mind Irish.

People who are born and bred in Ireland (plus attended the Irish education system) yet refuse to say 'TG ceathair' and instead steadfastly say 'TG four' have underlying issues in my opinion. That is just the truth of it.

It is a clear indicator of a mindset. If someone was talking about TV5 (the French channel) I would say 'TV cinq'. Simply because that is the name of the station and I know the word for five is cinq.

In my opinion the OP is clearly a self hating Irish person.
It is not provocative in my opinion, just a fact of life.

Would you get an Eastern European person, Chinese person (who live in Ireland) creating a thread such as this?

I think not, because they appreciate culture and language. And they live in Ireland.

It speaks volumes.

iffandonlyif wrote: »

This is to completely misunderstand OP's mindset. No, of course you wouldn't, for the reason that OP dislikes the intrusion of Irish not because of its oral qualities but because of the cultural intentions of its promoters.


You talk about self-hate. That claim is premised on the belief that an Irish person ought to embrace the language of their ancestors. It's beliefs like that from Irish-enthusiasts that cause people to resist the language.

I am sorry this is pure guff. It is a bad pretence at trying to put a spin on things.

German's appreciate German, French appreciate French, and English appreciate English etc

It is nothing to do with being enthusiastic about a language. Or 'Irish-enthusiasts' as you refer to them. Which implies they are 'exotic' and 'foreign' of a bygone age.

You can just appreciate a language you do not have to be an enthusiast.

In case you have not realised we live in Ireland this is an Irish website. Yet the OP seems to not only feel annoyed, but shocked that he/she hears a few words of Irish on a radio station

It is clear that the OP not only does not appreciate the Irish language. But the OP hates the Irish language. Otherwise the OP would not be driven to create this thread in the first place.

If the OP did this for any other state language in another country they would be laughed at, and rightly so.

iffandonlyif wrote: »

I must say, I'm not very impressed by what you have to say.



German's appreciate the language all Germans speak. Ditto French and English. It's not because the nationality and language share a common root!

Old English, and other languages long ago spoken in present-day England, are for the most part not appreciated by English people. And if a small subset of the English, as part of a cultural agenda, tried to have it imposed on others, it would be rebuffed.

So now are waffling about old English going on yet another tangent.
The fact is the French and German's appreciate thier languages as do the English.

The prose and culture is celebrated in all those languages. It is recognised as part of a culture in a country.

Yet somehow you seem to believe that the Irish language is not worthy of such appreciation - like the OP. A language teaches people a lot about a culture and a country that you would not get even in a translated version. The meaning is lost.

If people like the OP cannot accept or even put up with a few words of Irish in Ireland on an Irish station. I would go as far to say something went wrong somewhere.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Of course they do, because it's the language they speak every day and the language everyone else around them speaks every day, too :rolleyes:

Does every Spaniard "appreciate" Catalan, or Basque? Every French person Breton or Occitan? Outside of the regions where they are spoken to a greater or lesser extent, not really no - why would they? it's not part of their identity. It's part of the identity of some other people in the same country as them, but not part of their identity.

This is a brainless line of argument to be honest (just like the other one about not being a "proper country" without its own language - you'd be a brave man telling that to the Belgians, Swiss, Austrians, etc etc etc)

You are being deliberately obtuse. You too are obviously a self hating Irish person. And I assume you too have your own reasons for having a vendetta against Irish culture and Irish language. Which is fine that is your own choice.

But I am not a psychologist nor am I trained to ascertain the deep seething loathing of one's own culture and language similar to the OP. I suspect it may have colonial roots, lack of confidence in oneself and your own culture. And lack of respect for your own culture. All leading to not only a lack of respect for your own culture. But a lack of tolerance of a few Irish words on an Irish radio station. it is pathetic when you break it down to that simple level.

The OP described a few Irish words on an Irish station in Ireland as an 'auditory assault'. If you cannot see anything wrong with that there is no hope for you or you clearly have an agenda against your own nations language. I suggest you don't understand the richness of language a turn of phrase and an identity.
Irish is Ireland's identity whether you like it or not. Does the OP lack the courtesy to appreciate the Irish language? Or is the lack of tolerance due to a lack of confidence and inability to learn a few words even?

Whatever the reason there is no real excuse to complain about it. It is a language. It shows complete lack of self awareness on the OP's part.

Going off in any number of waffling red herring tangents is not going to change that. It only serves to go on to other topics. Which if you really have an interest in you should start a thread on and I will answer it there when I have the chance.

How would you define Irishness? And what is the origin of Irishness? I am not talking about politics or lines on a map. I think you will find there is one great foundation stone. Which is Irish. It is the origin of the great historical Irish annals.

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogad_G%C3%A1edel_re_Gallaib

It even has permeated into how Irish people speak English.

Hiberno English etc

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Your mistake GDG is presuming that the majority of people feel any connection between being Irish and the Irish language. They don't, nor do they feel any attachment or value to it beyond maybe the novelty value in a pub somewhere abroad.

Not having an interest in an almost dead language that's forced upon them in school yet which has no practical value afterwards, or not seeing the value in pouring financial supports and inconvenient yet still tokenistic efforts to promote it, doesn't make someone "pathetic", "self-hating/loathing", "colonial" or all the other petty insults you've levelled at people who have taken the time to explain WHY they feel as they do. These insults are also meaningless because of the point I made above, but it does serve to further alienate those you are presumably trying to convince.

If anything, your own attitude displays exactly the traits that put people off, and is ultimately completely out of touch with the mood of the general public.

Just because someone has no interest in the Irish language, it doesn't make them any less Irish than you.

I am sorry it does mean they are pathetic. The no interest I can understand. But to complain about it and have no tolerance to even hear a few Irish words on an Irish radio station is laughable imo.

And yes it does have colonial roots and Irish people's connection to England and lack of confidence in themselves.

There is a definite tone of self loathing even in your own post. You describe Irish as an 'almost dead language and pointless there after'. I would argue that any language is not pointless. There is a richness in every language a way of thought, a turn of phrase, a history and a different way of looking at the world.

My 'attitude' is honest such people as the OP are pathetic annoyed by a language not only any language. But the Irish language, would the OP say the same about French in France? I doubt it.

I understand the WHY some Irish people such as the OP hate the Irish language

Possibly -

1) Lazy (not bothered because already have English so no need)

2) No self confidence (fear)
(maybe taught badly at school or the individual struggled with it)

3) Identify more with England

4) Are not aware of places they can use the Irish language in a pressure free natural environment. Just speaking it as you would with any language.

5) No understanding of the richness of a language in general - not just Irish.

It with be interesting how you or the OP define Irishness? I suspect it would be a very vacuous and vague definition?

iffandonlyif wrote: »

And I suspect yours would be dogmatic.

I noticed you did not give your definition of 'Irishness' which again speaks volumes.

Unlike the OP I appreciate all languages and would be curious as to phrases here or there, when talking to people from other cultures.

For me Irishness is based of a foundation of Irish culture mixed with many others.
Most of this old Irish culture was written down or translated from Irish.
Whether you like it or not the basis of Irish culture and history is the Irish language.

It reflects a way of thought, turn of phrase and way of being.

Fair enough if someone like the OP as no interest in it. But to not even tolerate a few words of the Irish language and calling it an 'auditory assault' is pathetic in the extreme.

It speaks to me of a vaccous individual. Fine have no interest in it. But to attack a language and view it as an 'assault' it means to me that individual has 'issues'.