€27m bill for the integrated ticketing project

John R · 20-11-2003 6:20pm

Originally posted by Floater
It doesn't make it more difficult for the passenger if the driver doesn't accept fares. It makes it easier. You are living in the dark ages of public transport! They pay while waiting at the stop and jump on board when it arrives.

It looks as if you had rubbishy vending machines for Nitelink! A decent vending machine is like an ATM - ie a safe. Unlike an ATM it only contains coins so it is not an interesting target for a thief. Vandalism and grafitti is just as bad in most continental countries as it is in Dublin.

Floater

Attached pic of solid looking ticket vending ATM at a Montpellier tram stop

What's with this "You" business?

ATM's and tram stops are a completely different thing to bus stops, to provide a service with no fares accepted on the buses, every stop would have to have ticket facilities. The buses complete with drivers and passengers on board are not safe at night in some parts of the city, how the hell are vending machines going to survive?

Vandalism is just as bad in continental countries? State your source.

It looks as if you are only tinkering around the edges. Bus Eireann still haven't a clue about the concept of providing an efficient service!

Completely off topic and complete crap.

BuffyBot · 20-11-2003 6:29pm

Please read the thread! You can allocate revenue among operators based on load factors and passenger km capacity derived from statistical sampling. A properly devised system will be just as accurate as data derived from validation.

I have read the thread. Just because I disagree with your blinkered "I'm right" POV, it doesn't mean I haven't read them.

The point is, time wise a properly implemented and integrated Wayfarer system will not add that much time to the journey.

Which makes them like a tram from a driver keeping an eye on validation perspective. Which implies a need for ticket inspectors, bla bla bla.

Not nessecarily. The amount of inspectors doesn't have to be increased by any great deal )the effectiveness perhaps and the laws which support them, but that is another thread). It doesn't automatically lead to a huge need for an army of inspectors - if people know the rules will be enforced properly, they will buy relevant tickets.

Sarsfield · 20-11-2003 11:01pm

Originally posted by Floater
Floater is lost! We are in a threat entitled “€27 million bill for integrated ticketing project”. What has that got to do with the above please? [aside]You who were quite rightly talking about the benefits of taking air freight on to the rail system at Dublin Airport a few days ago! [/aside]

We are talking about the future! The past is no excuse for wasting money on less than best practice solutions today.

Floater

My apologies for going off topic. I was responding to John R regarding the validity of direct comparison with continental Europe. Perhaps my question to you would be best placed in a new thread.

MadsL · 21-11-2003 12:14am

I have have a question if you are done arguing...

What scam are Dublin Bus going to be able to pull that has the sheer elegance of the 'change ticket'. With an integrated system, will there be the facility to randomly overcharge the passenger, and make it excruciatingly difficult to claim the money back?

John R · 21-11-2003 12:38am

Originally posted by MadsL
I have have a question if you are done arguing...

What scam are Dublin Bus going to be able to pull that has the sheer elegance of the 'change ticket'. With an integrated system, will there be the facility to randomly overcharge the passenger, and make it excruciatingly difficult to claim the money back?

Where is the scam?

Exact fare only. It is printed on the published timetables, on the bus stop timetables that haven't been vandalised, on the outside and inside of all the buses.
And how is keeping the tickets and occasionally going to O'Connell street to get change back "excruciatingly difficult"?

Or there is the option of buying pre-payed 2 journey tickets from one of the hundreds of newsagents across the city and using them.

I lived in Birmingham for a time and there most of the private operators had an exact fare only system but did not offer any way of claiming back change. If you didn't have the correct fare then tough luck.

Then again you would probably prefer the bus drivers be easy targets for all the junkies and scumbags looking for an easy score just so you wouldn't have to go through the terrible inconvenience of going to O'Connell street once every six months.

Just to prove the point that Dublin Bus are such scam artists they took the opportunity of the euro changeover to round down their fares, how dare they the bastards just when every other right thinking Irish company was using the changeover as an easy way to profiteer from the public. Privatise now, that's what I say.

Floater · 21-11-2003 10:19am

Originally posted by Victor
Anto and Deco will have that knocked in no time with their stolen BMW

So we let Anto and Deco design Dublin’s public transport and fare collection system around their sick minds? It is surely not beyond the ingenuity of engineers to design an anti ramming system – such as they have in some shopping malls to stop ram raids? Or mount the ticket machine on a hefty steel base similar to the shopping mall protector.

If characters like your “friends” Anto and Deco exist and are attracted to ticket machines do you let them get away with it? They get bored with that and where do they go next? Ramming trams? So you give in there too and mothball an EUR 700 million tram system?

Collection of fares on board is a material delaying factor in the operation of urban public transport systems. At peak times it is as big a contributor to journey times and delays as mis-managed traffic lights.

Does the average person want to spend the rest of their working life stuck in a bus while a queue of people wait to board and pay their cash fare to the driver? Say 10 minutes extra for a 10 stop journey going and coming = 100 minutes per week wasted? 83 hours per year – almost half a week!

I can hear many current bus users saying to themselves “not me, I’m getting a car of my own next year and will be driving to work from then on!”

Floater

Floater · 21-11-2003 10:22am

Originally posted by BuffyBot
I have read the thread. Just because I disagree with your blinkered "I'm right" POV, it doesn't mean I haven't read them.

The point is, time wise a properly implemented and integrated Wayfarer system will not add that much time to the journey.

I don’t have a blinkered view, and unlike some people posting to this thread I have no vested interest in any ticketing system or public transport organization. I have lived with various public transport systems as a user and have been able to observe the tiny details that make a good system great. It is only the great systems that remove traffic chaos from the streets.

The bus company that operates the urban bus network in a city near me changed over to contactless smart cards four or five years ago. Initially I thought it was a good idea. The “Star Treck novelty” soon wears off. The bus drivers continued to take cash fares. Five years later I would estimate that only about 20% of passengers have smart cards. Most of the rest end up queuing to pay the bus driver. Furthermore I suspect that about 10% just use the system and don’t pay.

Compare and contrast with a German or Swiss city where people board the vehicle and off it goes. More people use public transport because it is quicker and fare dodgers are turned into a profitable job for random ticket inspectors.

SNCF have a similar system. Ticket inspection frequency is matched to the incidence of fare evasion on a particular service. Try and evade a €3 fare and you have two choices. When the inspector(s) comes on board you go over to him or her and declare the fact that you don’t have a valid ticket. They will sell you a ticket for €30 service charge + €3 ticket price. If you stay in your seat and they have to find you, the service charge goes up to about €100 from memory. Penal code measures involving verbal process and fraud charges can also come into the picture, depending on your track record and behaviour.

If you refuse to pay you can also find a clock ticking for costs – ie inspector’s and police time chauffeuring you to the police station and an ATM to get money. They throw as much manpower at it as is necessary – e g in an epidemic situation you might find four police and four ticket inspectors working together. It soon teaches Anto and Deco types that it is cheaper to buy a ticket before they get on board. Aside from the Anto and Deco minority, I suspect that it is also very embarrassing for the average person to be hauled off a bus or tram for non payment in front of one’s neighbours.

It’s a self-financing exercise – not dissimilar to vehicle tow away for parking offences. The only difference is that your body can get towed away if you don’t have a valid ticket for it.

Floater

Floater · 21-11-2003 10:24am

Originally posted by John R
Where is the scam?

It is a scam. One gets off a train at Heuston Station. The intercity ticket one was sold at the originating station has no automatic integration into the Dublin bus system. No fares are displayed either at the bus stop or at the entrance to the bus to enable one to get the exact money ready without causing further delay to the queue. You have to waste time asking the driver how much and either throw in a Euro coin and get no change or fiddle in your pocket for the 80c or whatever it is. This is adding to the journey time, inconvenient for the customer particularly on a wet day when a train load of people are waiting in line.

Pig inefficient.

In an earlier posting you accused me of being off topic for commenting on customer service efficiency. Efficient integrated ticketing is all about customer service efficiency. That should surely be the driving force behind the design of the ticketing system. Not needless “Star Treck” bureaucracy as is proposed for the Luas system.

Floater

BuffyBot · 21-11-2003 11:27am

The bus drivers continued to take cash fares

Umm, but if they take that facility away from them as would eventually be the case if the city was provided with ticket machines, that wouldn't be an issue, would it?

BendiBus · 21-11-2003 12:07pm

Originally posted by Floater
So we let Anto and Deco design Dublin’s public transport and fare collection system around their sick minds?

So we should ignore reality instead? As with the withdrawl of 10-journey tickets (reason supplied by Victor IIRC), some of the cultural problems need to be sorted out before some of the organisational issues can be tackled.

Say 10 minutes extra for a 10 stop journey going and coming = 100 minutes per week wasted? 83 hours per year – almost half a week!

1 minute per stop? What route are you on? In my experience its closer to 15 seconds average per stop. Still worth taking into account, but you shouldn't just pick numbers out of the air to make your point.

John R · 21-11-2003 2:26pm

Originally posted by Floater
It is a scam. One gets off a train at Heuston Station. The intercity ticket one was sold at the originating station has no automatic integration into the Dublin bus system. No fares are displayed either at the bus stop or at the entrance to the bus to enable one to get the exact money ready without causing further delay to the queue. You have to waste time asking the driver how much and either throw in a Euro coin and get no change or fiddle in your pocket for the 80c or whatever it is. This is adding to the journey time, inconvenient for the customer particularly on a wet day when a train load of people are waiting in line.

You have a funny idea of "scam" Expecting people to pay for their bus journey, disgraceful.
The fare IS displayed on the large timetable at the Heuston Station bus shelter and on a display in the window on all regular route 90 buses.
Also the 90 timetable and fare is printed in the Irish Rail Intercity timetable.

In an earlier posting you accused me of being off topic for commenting on customer service efficiency. Efficient integrated ticketing is all about customer service efficiency. That should surely be the driving force behind the design of the ticketing system. Not needless “Star Treck” bureaucracy as is proposed for the Luas system.

Floater

I accused you of being off topic for saying "Bus Eireann still haven't a clue about the concept of providing an efficient service!" because it is off topic, it is also just some vague criticism that you will not back up with any specific examples.

Floater · 21-11-2003 2:27pm

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Umm, but if they take that facility away from them as would eventually be the case if the city was provided with ticket machines, that wouldn't be an issue, would it?

They got rid of on board cash handling and validation here decades ago. Why not hop on a plane tomorrow and have a look at it?

No regrets. The most successful public transport system in the world. In one of the richest cities in the world. Everyone uses it.

Floater

John R · 21-11-2003 2:35pm

Originally posted by Floater
I don’t have a blinkered view, and unlike some people posting to this thread I have no vested interest in any ticketing system or public transport organization.

Oh and who exactly on this board does have a vested interest in these things? Either stop making vague accusations or back them up with proof.

Floater · 21-11-2003 2:48pm

Originally posted by John R
You have a funny idea of "scam" Expecting people to pay for their bus journey, disgraceful.
The fare IS displayed on the large timetable at the Heuston Station bus shelter and on a display in the window on all regular route 90 buses.
Also the 90 timetable and fare is printed in the Irish Rail Intercity timetable.

I have never seen a fare notice during my occasional travels via Heuston and I can assure you that I have looked for it.

You are missing the point on the "no change" policy. While 20c is immaterial to most people, it leaves a bad taste in one's mouth particularly when the fare is not clearly displayed. It has scam merchant in big bold capital letters written all over it.

Why don't you give change? Because it saves time, aside from the scam factor. You therefore recognise implicitly the time wasted taking fares on a bus.

It would be more efficient for everybody if rail tickets to Dublin included the central zone by default with the option of specifying any zone. It would save (honest) ticket collection costs, and above all people's time. Hundreds of people's time compounded from every train.

I accused you of being off topic for saying "Bus Eireann still haven't a clue about the concept of providing an efficient service!" because it is off topic, it is also just some vague criticism that you will not back up with any specific examples.

The Heuston Station #90 bus ticketing is a specific criticism about customer service. What is vague about it?

The absence of integrated ticketing is a specific criticism about customer service. What is vague about it?

The delays caused by cash payments on board buses generally is a specific criticism about customer service. What is vague about it?

Floater

Floater · 21-11-2003 2:52pm

Originally posted by John R
Oh and who exactly on this board does have a vested interest in these things? Either stop making vague accusations or back them up with proof.

I have made my declaration of interest earlier. Where is your's please?

Floater

maxheadroom · 21-11-2003 2:58pm

Originally posted by Floater
You are missing the point on the "no change" policy. ... Why don't you give change? Because it saves time, aside from the scam factor. You therefore recognise implicitly the time wasted taking fares on a bus.

I think its you who are missing the point. While I agree that we should move to a system where the majority of people use prepaid tickets (such as exists in most scandnavian countries) I don't agree with removing "pay the driver if you need to". What about maintenance and restocking costs for hundreds of weather proof, vandal proof outdoor ticketing machines?

Also, Dublin Bus don't give change out of security concerns, not because of any effeciency concerns.

And finally, I believe that bus eireann and dublin bus are seperate companies (within the CIE umbrella). It apperars you are confusing them somewhat...

BuffyBot · 21-11-2003 2:58pm

They got rid of on board cash handling and validation here decades ago. Why not hop on a plane tomorrow and have a look at it?

From that site: Tickets must be purchased before boarding and can be obtained at any tram or bus stop from the automatic ticket machine. They must always be validated before boarding.

That's was kinda the point I was making :rolleyes:

Floater · 21-11-2003 3:00pm

Originally posted by BendiBus
In my experience its closer to 15 seconds average per stop.

Please stop pulling the wool! It takes about 15 seconds to serve one customer.

Floater

BendiBus · 21-11-2003 3:14pm

Originally posted by Floater
Please stop pulling the wool! It takes about 15 seconds to serve one customer.

Floater

Now you're just being silly.

"€1.20 please. whirr of printer, sound of coins dropping" 15 seconds?
While simultaneously another 2 customers have boarded with their pre-paid tickets

The majority of stops on most routes only pick up a small handful of people. On most routes there are just a few major stops where a lot of people get on.

Do you actually use the bus or are you speaking based on a theoretical calculation?

Floater · 21-11-2003 3:15pm

Originally posted by BuffyBot
From that site: Tickets must be purchased before boarding and can be obtained at any tram or bus stop from the automatic ticket machine. They must always be validated before boarding.

That's was kinda the point I was making :rolleyes:

That final sentence is actually incorrect. There is no requirement to validate time based tickets on every use - eg daily, weekly, monthly, annual. Only multi-trip tickets need validation before each use.

When you buy a day ticket you have to validate it the first time you use it only.

The validation process is bog standard time and stop number stamping. It has nothing to do with fare allocations.

The link I supplied was not from official sources. The official chapter and verse is here next to Important! in in red

More here

Go and see and you will be converted!

Floater

Floater · 21-11-2003 3:21pm

Originally posted by BendiBus
Now you're just being silly.

"€1.20 please. whirr of printer, sound of coins dropping" 15 seconds?
While simultaneously another 2 customers have boarded with their pre-paid tickets

The majority of stops on most routes only pick up a small handful of people. On most routes there are just a few major stops where a lot of people get on.

Walk forward after previous passenger clears the way 2 seconds.
Tell him/her (driver) where you are going to 2 seconds.
He says EUR 1.20 please 2 seconds.
You find EUR 1.20 from the change in your pocket. 5 seconds.
You drop them in coinbox 1 second.
He checks that you have paid at least the right amount. 2 seconds minimum to identify appallingly designed euro coinage denominations.
Ticket printing, customer taking ticket and walking out of the way 1 second.

Floater

John R · 21-11-2003 4:00pm

Originally posted by Floater
I have never seen a fare notice during my occasional travels via Heuston and I can assure you that I have looked for it.

You are missing the point on the "no change" policy. While 20c is immaterial to most people, it leaves a bad taste in one's mouth particularly when the fare is not clearly displayed. It has scam merchant in big bold capital letters written all over it.

Why don't you give change? Because it saves time, aside from the scam factor. You therefore recognise implicitly the time wasted taking fares on a bus.

That is not the reason exact fare was introduced, it was to stop the increasing number of attacks on drivers for money, I can't remember the exact figures but I do recall newspaper reports stating that at one stage over 100 drivers were on sick leave because of assaults. Besides as I already said it is possible to get the money back.

It would be more efficient for everybody if rail tickets to Dublin included the central zone by default with the option of specifying any zone. It would save (honest) ticket collection costs, and above all people's time. Hundreds of people's time compounded from every train.

Have you ever enquired about a through ticket to the city centre?

The Heuston Station #90 bus ticketing is a specific criticism about customer service. What is vague about it?

The absence of integrated ticketing is a specific criticism about customer service. What is vague about it?

The delays caused by cash payments on board buses generally is a specific criticism about customer service. What is vague about it?

1. It has nothing to do with Bus Eireann they do not operate dublin city services.
2. You are assuming there is no integrated ticketing. Have you ever asked for one?
3. Not accepting cash on board is a very big change requiring a huge infrastructure investement and a big culture change for passengers. For a long period all the time saved would be wasted with the drivers having to explain to people that they have to get their tickets before boarding, then explaining that no they can't wait around while said passenger finds a vending machine and purchases a ticket.

John R · 21-11-2003 4:09pm

Originally posted by Floater
I have made my declaration of interest earlier. Where is your's please?

Floater

I do not nor have I ever worked for CIE, the civil service, trade unions or anyone else connected to Irish public transport.

BendiBus · 21-11-2003 4:12pm

Originally posted by Floater
Walk forward after previous passenger clears the way 2 seconds.
Tell him/her (driver) where you are going to 2 seconds.
He says EUR 1.20 please 2 seconds.
You find EUR 1.20 from the change in your pocket. 5 seconds.
You drop them in coinbox 1 second.
He checks that you have paid at least the right amount. 2 seconds minimum to identify appallingly designed euro coinage denominations.
Ticket printing, customer taking ticket and walking out of the way 1 second.

Floater

You obviously don't use the bus then.

It is not a 2 second walk from behind the previous passenger to the coinbox. In REALITY, passenger says €1.20 (please) while simultaneuosly dropping coins into machine. Driver usually says nothing.
Half awake driver can count coinage faster than you can say "Zurich".

The OCCASIONAL off-route passenger says "O'Connel St. please". The OCCASIONAL brain-dead divvy doesn't look for coins until at coinbox. The OCCASIONAL driver takes a litle while to cound 4 or 5 coins.

Meanwhile, on the other step, passengers with pre-paid tickets continue to board at a rate of about 1 every 3-4 seconds

embraer170 · 21-11-2003 5:24pm

I think quite a few users here who seem to blindly believe the CIE/Dublin Bus version of events should take a trip to a city such as Amsterdam, Zurich, Paris or even Geneva (which has a much smaller population than Dublin) to see how proper efficient public transport works. Buses actually have a schedule and astonishingly stick to it, every route being as good, if not better than a Dublin “QBC”.

I know this has been discussed multiple times, here and elsewhere, but I still cannot understand why all the doors cannot be used, at least for getting off. It was bad enough with the double deckers but how do they expect people to walk all the way forward from the back of an articulated bus. Also isn’t it about time for a passenger information system (next stop… xxx, connect here for buses to xxxx)

In my own experience, it is quite reasonable to say that cash paying passengers take at least seven seconds each to process. Sound like nothing but if it was eliminated; a few minutes could be knocked off most journeys.

“Open access” combined with strict penalties is really the way to go, especially for buses/trams but also for metros/suburban railways (Athens is a key example).

BendiBus · 21-11-2003 9:34pm

I do not claim that 1 trip is a valid statistical sample but it seemed like a normal trip home to me, so here we go:

Took the 78A from Aston Quay to Ballyfermot at about 17:25 this evening

Boarding at Aston Quay, cash fares were being paid at a rate of 4-5 every 15 seconds. Sad individual that I am, I delayed my own boarding to watch this. Pre-paid ticket holders boarded at a similar rate.

Stopped 11 times on the way. One stop (on Thomas St.) took 45 seconds but it included two shoppers with a good few bags and some kids in tow. Every other stop took less than 15 seconds. Most took less than 10 (several stops were just to set down - this is a normal pattern). The bus was close to full by St James Hospital.

I fully accept that a couple of minues in total were lost due to cash fares.

I also agree with embraers first 2 paragraphs.

What gets on my tits is people making up statistics (1 minute at each stop!) just because it suits their argument.

For the record, I am employed within the CIE group of companies. I accept thare are a lot of improvements that we can make. Believe me I do! I've been to the continent too. I've travelled on trams, metros and double decker trains. I know how things could be.

Aren't there enough strong arguments to make without resorting to making stuff up?

Regards,
BendiBus.

platform 10 · 21-11-2003 10:55pm

I would like to correct an incorrect statement that was made above.

It is and for many years has been possible to purchase Intercity Rail tickets from any station that include the bus transfer to O'Connell Bridge from Heuston Station.

When purchasing your ticket, you just need to tell the clerk that you want a through ticket to O'Connell Bridge. These tickets can then be inserted in the number 90 bus validator on boarding and they work!

Also the fares for routes 90/90A and 748 are displayed at the bottom of the route timetables that are on the bus shelters at Heuston Station, and are normally displayed in either the side or front window of the bus, due to it being a non-standard fare.

MadsL · 22-11-2003 9:50pm

Why not accept Dublin bus change tickets in part payment for bus tickets in shops?

That way I don't have to travel to O'Connell St during working hours to redeem them (do you actually know anyone who bothers to do this?)

Victor · 22-11-2003 10:29pm

Originally posted by MadsL
Why not accept Dublin bus change tickets in part payment for bus tickets in shops?

The idea is to encourage people to have exact fare, not faciliate those who don't. While I do think there should be more than one place where you can redeem them (e.g. bus depots or there are specialist ticket outlets that sell bus tickets, concert tickets, gift vouchers, etc. in several shopping centres, so you could at least have 5-6 outlets redeeming them), I don't think it would be economic for shopkeepers to do it.

Originally posted by MadsL
That way I don't have to travel to O'Connell St during working hours to redeem them (do you actually know anyone who bothers to do this?)

I used to go every 3-4 months, but usually these days I always have exact fare.

Floater · 24-11-2003 9:49am

Originally posted by BendiBus
What gets on my tits is people making up statistics (1 minute at each stop!) just because it suits their argument.

I wasn’t making up “statistics” – I was showing you how I arrived at an estimate, and made no suggestion that I had done a stopwatch exercise on a statistically valid sample of transactions.

Anyway it is irrelevant in the scheme of things. You know it. The dogs on the streets also know that boarding a bus where fare payment or validation tasks are involved is slower (than just walking straight on through any door of the bus and sitting down).

While I know that the actual act of validating a contactless smart card is faster than shoving a ticket into a machine and waiting for it to come out again, this is only a small part of the overall time involved in the validation exercise. The general public will cause delays when asked to engage in transactional activity. Finding tickets, dropping things, handling a small child while wrestling with a handbag etc etc. I would again point to the French bus experience. Five years after installing an expensive contactless smart card system only about one in five passengers uses it.

Remove the transaction handling completely from the bus / tram environment by installing the machine at the stops:

1) The vehicle will spend less time at each stop

2) Journey times will be shorter

3) People will find the system less frictional to use and therefore will be inclined to use it more often.

4) The driver will be a safer driver because his total focus will be on driving the vehicle. No side issues to worry about.

5) The bus or tram will be a safer vehicle for the customer for the reasons outlined earlier in the topic.

In a major revamp of public transport ticketing why should we accept anything less?

In my view the proposed spend of EUR 27m on a smart card ticket system is a gross waste of public funds because it will do little or nothing to improve the end to end journey experience for the traveling public.

The public would get far better value if this money was spent on ticket machines at stops and upgrading of the bus stops generally to shelter customers from the elements.

Floater

€27m bill for the integrated ticketing project

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