€27m bill for the integrated ticketing project

BuffyBot

the ill-conceived concentric circle system in use.

It's not that ill concieved. All CIE need to do is launch the right set of ticketing options to utilise it.

Yoda

It is indeed ill-conceived. There are no useful lateral spokes. The bus system I would like to see would have busses running in circles or semicircles connecting all those spokes.

Regarding:

Time validity could range from anything between 30 minutes for a 1 zone ticket to a year of unlimited use in a specified number of zones for a year for someone who holds an annual ticket.

Well, time validity had better be 2 hours minimum given Dublin's traffic problems.

Floater

Originally posted by Yoda
It is indeed ill-conceived. There are no useful lateral spokes. The bus system I would like to see would have busses running in circles or semicircles connecting all those spokes.

The fare system has nothing to do with the route buses or trams take. Buses can run along an M50 type route format. If you had a bus running along the M50 and if the M50 fell within one fare zone of the existing structure, while it would give great value to people who want to travel in circles it wouldn't necessarily be fair to the bus operator or the rest of the users. ie you would pay far less for a 10km ride along the M50 than a 10km ride from the Naas Road into town.

The cellular structure is the only one that does not discriminate against operators or users based on the shape of their travel patterns.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by BuffyBot
It's not that ill concieved. All CIE need to do is launch the right set of ticketing options to utilise it.

Like what please? Set up a whole load of overlapping concentric circles centred in each neighbourhood? This would be extremely complex, difficult to administer, and inflexible for the public transport user. What benefit would such a structure give over the cellular system?

I don't think you have thought the issues through.

Floater

maxheadroom

Floater,


Is there an all city ticket available in Zurich? Or a maximum number of zones you'd have to pay (like, have tickets available for 1,2,3.4 zones and then an all zone ticket as the next step?)

Just asking, because long trips going across the city centre or orbital trips would be very expensive based on the cellular map you provided of Zurich (like a trip from Oberstammheim to Fischenthal)

Floater

Originally posted by maxheadroom
Floater,


Is there an all city ticket available in Zurich? Or a maximum number of zones you'd have to pay (like, have tickets available for 1,2,3.4 zones and then an all zone ticket as the next step?)

Just asking, because long trips going across the city centre or orbital trips would be very expensive based on the cellular map you provided of Zurich (like a trip from Oberstammheim to Fischenthal)

An all zone ticket is comes after five zones in the case of the Jahresabo (full year ticket) for example.

A five zone year ticket is EUR 912
An all zone year ticket is EUR 1 090

Both are for 2nd class. 1st class is 65% more.
Under 25s get 2cl transport at a discount of 27%.

If you take a top to bottom journey on the Zurimap - Zone 16 to Zone 81. This is about the same distance as Dublin to Drogheda.

Zurich price EUR 1,090 pa. Dublin price EUR 1,776.

The Zurich price includes use of all modes of transport all over the region - boats, 16 tram lines in Zurich running every 6 minutes or so, Sbahn lines going everywhere, intercity trains within the region, and buses.

The Bus Eireann website says their ticket is "flexible" It's Flexible!

"Monthly Tickets are valid for unlimited travel for a full calendar month between two designated points on Bus Éireann’s network of commuter services. " What planet do they live on?

Is it any wonder Dubliners prefer their car?! CIE's ticket policies require a radical rethink.

Floater

Network map for the Zurich city area - ie as far as zone 21 in the North covering trams, SBahn, buses, and boats

More info here

Yoda

Does anyone know of the Department of Transport has anyone reading this board? Or CIE?

IrelandOffline began making real headway when Boards.ie discussions began being read by telecoms providers and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

dmeehan

with the introduction of this intgrated ticketing I think it would also be a good time to introduce different priced tickets for different types of trains

eg.
like in Germany, Switzerland, Belgium etc we should have more than jjst either Inter City or Commuter.

Could IR not introduce
IC ("real" Inter-City, no need to stop at smaller towns and villages)
IR Inter Regional
RB ("Reginal Bahn" - regoinal trains)

and if passengers wnat to go on the faster IC trains, then they pay more for the privelledge. Also paying less for the slower trains that have more stops.

that way those traveling from Dublin to Cork (for example) pay a higher price for a faster train that doesnt stop in the likes of Charleville or Portarlington

What are everyone else's thoughts on this??

Floater

Originally posted by dmeehan
with the introduction of this intgrated ticketing I think it would also be a good time to introduce different priced tickets for different types of trains

eg.
like in Germany, Switzerland, Belgium etc we should have more than jjst either Inter City or Commuter.

Could IR not introduce
IC ("real" Inter-City, no need to stop at smaller towns and villages)
IR Inter Regional
RB ("Reginal Bahn" - regoinal trains)

and if passengers wnat to go on the faster IC trains, then they pay more for the privelledge. Also paying less for the slower trains that have more stops.

that way those traveling from Dublin to Cork (for example) pay a higher price for a faster train that doesnt stop in the likes of Charleville or Portarlington

What are everyone else's thoughts on this??

Do you put up the already high fares for the 30 year old hard class inter city "express" rolling stock or do you reduce the fare charged on the 40-50 year old stopping trains?

There is no comparison between the QoS provided on Germany's or Switzerland's IC trains and what Irish Rail offer.

No premium is justified in my view for what is offered.

Floater

embraer170

with the introduction of this intgrated ticketing I think it would also be a good time to introduce different priced tickets for different types of trains

eg.
like in Germany, Switzerland, Belgium etc we should have more than jjst either Inter City or Commuter.

Am I correct in reading you are suggesting different prices on different trains for completing the samejourney?

That definitely does not exist in Switzerland where you pay the exact same no matter what train you travel on, be it IC, IR, CIS, TGV/ICE (when they operate within the country such as Vallorbe - Lausanne or Basel - Lucerne)

What benefits would such a policy have other than making things more complicated and expensive?

John R

Originally posted by embraer170
Am I correct in reading you are suggesting different prices on different trains for completing the samejourney?

That definitely does not exist in Switzerland where you pay the exact same no matter what train you travel on, be it IC, IR, CIS, TGV/ICE (when they operate within the country such as Vallorbe - Lausanne or Basel - Lucerne)

What benefits would such a policy have other than making things more complicated and expensive?

None, which is why it is such a stupid idea.

It would really be great if certain people would stop throwing around comparisons with other countries that have completely different population, infrastructure and traffic patterns to Ireland without even acknowledging the differences.

Back to the original topic: Dublin Bus has already started to replace their ticketing system with a new one. http://www.dublinbus.ie/projects/integrated_ticketing_system.asp

Victor

The only staggering of fares should be premiums on long distance journeys at peak times - Friday and Sunday nights and Monday mornings, so as to encourage people to travel according to their needs, not their fads.

Sarsfield

Originally posted by John R
It would really be great if certain people would stop throwing around comparisons with other countries that have completely different population, infrastructure and traffic patterns to Ireland without even acknowledging the differences.

While I don't agree totaly with this argument (there are many fair comparisons that can be made - few favourable to Ireland), I do think certain facts need to be borne in mind when making comparisons.

Simple population or geographic area comparisons are unfair as Ireland is an island and therefore our infrastructure is not linked to anyone elses. Perhaps Floater could oblige with some statistics about the volume/value of international traffic on the continent. If there was a rail link from Ireland to Britain, I suspect there would be a lot more railfreight carried in Ireland for example.

Also, until a couple of years ago, this country was one of the poorest in Europe. Our crappy infrastructure was sufficient. Not only that, but we couldn't afford to build anything new anyway.

Most continental countries infrastructure has benefitted from one or more of the following: wealth, dictatorship (no elections allows one to plan for the long term), a need to rebuild after the war and the self-confidence to take on big public projects.

We are only just catching up in wealth and confidence. And I hope we never have to suffer the other two just so that the trains run on time.

But just to repeat, none of the above is an excuse for a lot of the todays failings of our own infrastructure, such as poor project selection and management.

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
The only staggering of fares should be premiums on long distance journeys at peak times - Friday and Sunday nights and Monday mornings, so as to encourage people to travel according to their needs, not their fads.

They have this in France on inter-city services where they have slightly different prices for the same journey depending on the day of the week etc.

It would be a bit complicated to employ on regional services within an integrated ticketing system - particularly for annual ticket holders. I suppose you could have an annual ticket that was invalid between say 07.15 and 08.30 and 17.00 and 18.30.

There is a fine line between arriving at a price incentive that causes people to change their travel patterns and one that makes peak time commuters say to themselves I'll bring the car rather than pay that high price to get on a tram when it suits me to get to work.

I don't think the authorities have done enough to promote flexi-time which would be a driver to spread the load away from the peaks for both regional commuter services and weekend inter-city traffic peaks.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by John R
It would really be great if certain people would stop throwing around comparisons with other countries that have completely different population, infrastructure and traffic patterns to Ireland without even acknowledging the differences.

Careful! You are beginning to sound like an eircom employee two years ago telling everybody that we couldn't have broadband in Ireland because of our different population distribution, and how everything else in the Irish market was different to which ever country it might be compared with, and of course not to mention the mantra that “there was no demand for broadband in Ireland”.

Eircom are now signing up more than 1,000 people a week for this service. While they have a bit more to go yet to reach the European status quo, and they are still playing monopoly price games like someone else I can think of, the message is familiar.

Back to the original topic: Dublin Bus has already started to replace their ticketing system with a new one. http://www.dublinbus.ie/projects/integrated_ticketing_system.asp

What's new here please? A huge sum of money is being spent on a ticketing system and consultants who appear to operate from a country that has an even worse public transport infrastructure than Ireland.

The proposed system will continue to involve cash payments to the bus driver and queues of people waiting to validate their tickets while boarding. A pig inefficient set-up that will add perhaps 20 minutes to the average bus route journey. A waste of the customers’ time and a waste of bus company assets.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
Simple population or geographic area comparisons are unfair as Ireland is an island and therefore our infrastructure is not linked to anyone elses. Perhaps Floater could oblige with some statistics about the volume/value of international traffic on the continent. If there was a rail link from Ireland to Britain, I suspect there would be a lot more railfreight carried in Ireland for example.

Floater is lost! We are in a threat entitled “€27 million bill for integrated ticketing project”. What has that got to do with the above please? [aside]You who were quite rightly talking about the benefits of taking air freight on to the rail system at Dublin Airport a few days ago! [/aside]

Also, until a couple of years ago, this country was one of the poorest in Europe. Our crappy infrastructure was sufficient. Not only that, but we couldn't afford to build anything new anyway.

We are talking about the future! The past is no excuse for wasting money on less than best practice solutions today.

Floater

BuffyBot

What's new here please? A huge sum of money is being spent on a ticketing system and consultants who appear to operate from a country that has an even worse public transport infrastructure than Ireland.

The Wayfarer ticketing system seems to work fine in London. I can't see why it wouldn't work in Dublin and the surrounding areas.

Floater

Originally posted by BuffyBot
The Wayfarer ticketing system seems to work fine in London. I can't see why it wouldn't work in Dublin and the surrounding areas.

London doesn't have trams.

On a tram there is no way to ensure that someone validates their ticket other than random ticket inspections. There is therefore no point in on board validation - it can be done at the tram stop before people get on, using the same ticket machine that issues tickets.

In any event the only tickets that need validation are 10 trip and similar tickets. One trip tickets don't need to be validated because they can have an expiry time printed on them in the ticket printing process. Annual and monthly tickets don't need validation because they are date period based rather than number of trips based.

The tram stops, all the doors open. Everyone gets on without delay. The tram moves off in seconds.

It makes sense to use the same validate at the stop system on urban buses because like a tram all the bus doors can open, people can get on via any door. They close and it moves off. A bus operating on this basis gets you to your destination about 30% faster and the bus operator requires fewer buses to do the same job.

It also makes it easier for the buses to keep to schedule. Something that doesn't happen in London or Dublin.

The system also keeps the driver out of having to handle and hold cash making his job less risky from a health and safety point of view, and less stressful in terms of having to account for cash and balance his books as well as doing his primary job of driving the vehicle.


Floater

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Floater
London doesn't have trams.

On a tram there is no way to ensure that someone validates their ticket other than random ticket inspections. There is therefore no point in on board validation - it can be done at the tram stop before people get on, using the same ticket machine that issues tickets.

Helsinki does and you have to validate your matkakortti (travel card) for every trip. There are validation machines at the entrance to the subway platforms, inside the entrances of the trams and in the entrance / exit area of the local trains (the local trains there are quite like our intercity trains in design).

Look here for an english version of their current development plan and here for an english language description of their new smart card based integrated ticketing system

BuffyBot

London doesn't have trams.

Errrm, yes it does - see here.

The system also keeps the driver out of having to handle and hold cash making his job less risky from a health and safety point of view

This is the plan TfL have. Most buses within the centre of London are now pay before you board in order to reduce journey times - as are some busier outer London routes. Machines are installed at the stop which dispense tickets, and those with Oyster cards just swipe as they board. The long term plan is to eliminate driver cash handling. I would imagine Dublin Bus are looking at using the Wayfarer system and implementing it in a similar manner.

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
They have this in France on inter-city services where they have slightly different prices for the same journey depending on the day of the week etc.

I am suggesting if you want to take an Intercity (not a suburban) 17:30 on Friday you should pay more, as you are demanding capacity that is underutilised for the rest of the week (save 18:00 on Sunday and 07:30 on Monday).

Originally posted by Floater
It would be a bit complicated to employ on regional services within an integrated ticketing system - particularly for annual ticket holders. I suppose you could have an annual ticket that was invalid between say 07.15 and 08.30 and 17.00 and 18.30.

I think many Social Welfare Free Travel Passes already have such restrictions. A separate monthly/annual ticket for people who know htey won't travel peak time and gives a discount might be good.

Originally posted by Floater
There is a fine line between arriving at a price incentive that causes people to change their travel patterns and one that makes peak time commuters say to themselves I'll bring the car rather than pay that high price to get on a tram when it suits me to get to work.

I agree, it just wouldn't work for short journies.

Floater

Originally posted by BuffyBot

This is the plan TfL have. Most buses within the centre of London are now pay before you board in order to reduce journey times - as are some busier outer London routes. Machines are installed at the stop which dispense tickets, and those with Oyster cards just swipe as they board.

Assuming by "Oyster card" you mean a time based ticket (eg 1 or 30 days unlimited use) why bother involving the passenger in a validation process when boarding? It is far more efficient to open three or four sets of doors and let everyone on and off quickly.

The discipline of having a valid ticket will have to be enforced on the tram system in Dublin through a series of on board service charges in cases where a ticket inspector has to sell the ticket to the cowboy customer.

The same discipline will carry over to the bus and other systems if it is permitted to.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by maxheadroom
Helsinki does and you have to validate your matkakortti (travel card) for every trip. There are validation machines at the entrance to the subway platforms, inside the entrances of the trams and in the entrance / exit area of the local trains (the local trains there are quite like our intercity trains in design).

Look here for an english version of their current development plan and here for an english language description of their new smart card based integrated ticketing system

Ticket validation on trams is just another form of bureaucracy that delivers no benefit to the customer or tram system operator.

A solution in search of a problem.

Floater

John R

Originally posted by Floater
Careful! You are beginning to sound like an eircom employee two years ago telling everybody that we couldn't have broadband in Ireland because of our different population distribution, and how everything else in the Irish market was different to which ever country it might be compared with, and of course not to mention the mantra that “there was no demand for broadband in Ireland”.

Eircom are now signing up more than 1,000 people a week for this service. While they have a bit more to go yet to reach the European status quo, and they are still playing monopoly price games like someone else I can think of, the message is familiar.


What's new here please? A huge sum of money is being spent on a ticketing system and consultants who appear to operate from a country that has an even worse public transport infrastructure than Ireland.

The proposed system will continue to involve cash payments to the bus driver and queues of people waiting to validate their tickets while boarding. A pig inefficient set-up that will add perhaps 20 minutes to the average bus route journey. A waste of the customers’ time and a waste of bus company assets.

Floater

You are contradicting yourself all over the place as usual, the point of the thread is that the RPA is wasting huge sums on consultants to examine the ticketing options. The link I posted shows that DB has bypassed all that crap and is instead just installing a new system that will be forward compatible with whatever LUAS uses.

FYI Wayfarer are not consultants. They are the largest suppliers of transport ticketing systems in Europe (including those currently used by DB, IE, BE, NIR, Ulsterbus, Transport For London and most other large operators ).

Your sugestion that DB should stop all on-bus cash payments is patently ridiculous. This is still the largest method of payment for many people, making it more difficult for people to use public transport is hardly a good thing and the idea that if you don't have a pre-payed ticket you can't use the service at all is just daft.

As in London, they will have to give people an incentive to change over to pre-payed tickets using smart cards by giving them a fare reduction for doing so.

The idea of ticket vending machines at bus stops that is being introduced in London now is not a new idea to Dublin, remember the Nitelink ticket machines on College Street. The big problem with these and with Real-time information systems (which DB are trialling on several routes right now) is not the technology or the will, it is the vandalism.

BuffyBot

Assuming by "Oyster card" you mean a time based ticket (eg 1 or 30 days unlimited use) why bother involving the passenger in a validation process when boarding? It is far more efficient to open three or four sets of doors and let everyone on and off quickly.

Because it is connected to the revenue the bus operating companies get. Likewise in Dublin it could be used to split the collected funds amongst DB/BE/IE/Luas/Private Operator etc. The passenger validation process takes no time as they can do it walking by. They don't need to stop and validate the ticket, like DB's current machines. And on some of the London routes equipped with "bendi-buses" people can board through other doors.

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
Ticket validation on trams is just another form of bureaucracy that delivers no benefit to the customer or tram system operator.

It is an issue if the operator is paid based on the number of passenger carried (this especially applies to bus operators). That said, I don't know the contractual arranement between the RPA and Connex.

Floater

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Because it is connected to the revenue the bus operating companies get. Likewise in Dublin it could be used to split the collected funds amongst DB/BE/IE/Luas/Private Operator etc. The passenger validation process takes no time as they can do it walking by. They don't need to stop and validate the ticket, like DB's current machines.

Please read the thread! You can allocate revenue among operators based on load factors and passenger km capacity derived from statistical sampling. A properly devised system will be just as accurate as data derived from validation.

And on some of the London routes equipped with "bendi-buses" people can board through other doors.

Which makes them like a tram from a driver keeping an eye on validation perspective. Which implies a need for ticket inspectors, bla bla bla.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
It is an issue if the operator is paid based on the number of passenger carried (this especially applies to bus operators). That said, I don't know the contractual arranement between the RPA and Connex.

Please see an earlier posting on this thread regarding the use of statistical sampling for this purpose

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by John R

Your sugestion that DB should stop all on-bus cash payments is patently ridiculous. This is still the largest method of payment for many people, making it more difficult for people to use public transport is hardly a good thing and the idea that if you don't have a pre-payed ticket you can't use the service at all is just daft.

It doesn't make it more difficult for the passenger if the driver doesn't accept fares. It makes it easier. You are living in the dark ages of public transport! They pay while waiting at the stop and jump on board when it arrives.

The idea of ticket vending machines at bus stops that is being introduced in London now is not a new idea to Dublin, remember the Nitelink ticket machines on College Street.

It looks as if you had rubbishy vending machines for Nitelink! A decent vending machine is like an ATM - ie a safe. Unlike an ATM it only contains coins so it is not an interesting target for a thief. Vandalism and grafitti is just as bad in most continental countries as it is in Dublin.

It looks as if you are only tinkering around the edges. Bus Eireann still haven't a clue about the concept of providing an efficient service!

Floater

Attached pic of solid looking ticket vending ATM at a Montpellier tram stop

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
Attached pic of solid looking ticket vending ATM at a Montpellier tram stop

Anto and Deco will have that knocked in no time with their stolen BMW