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How appellants are treated in DR

245

Comments

  • #52
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It happens.
    I lurk DR (for #inspo) and I think it's pretty rare.

    As an aside, it seems really inconsistent between forums/mods as to how far back historic cards/bans are considered when you look at the DR forum. It's like "you got banned one time 19 years ago so we're escalating from there!"


  • #53
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Has a mod decision ever been overturned as a matter of interest? I've only ever seen things reversed where the initial mod makes that decision.

    I would say it's rare but I'm pretty sure I have overturned a couple. Other times a cmod might advise the mod that the card was a bit harsh/wasn't warranted (in the cmods opinion). If the mod sees their POV they might reverse themselves otherwise it'll move on with the cmods decision.


  • #54
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I posted some stats last time we had a discussion on this in December 2015 when I was a CMod

    Just to emphasise though, many cards get overturned before they ever get to the DRP. I reckon over 100 cards have been overturned or reduced during the past 12 months following the first step in the process - discussion with the relevant mod. (Cards are easier to track than bans, as only Admins can overturn them and we have a dedicated request thread for them)


  • #55
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    I've overturned a few, not many. Generally the system we have means that the mods react correctly and act appropriately to the vast majority of situations.

    As Beasty said, there is a lot of discussions that go on behind the scenes and most disputes are resolved there without need for DRP.


  • #56
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    RasTa wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057929464

    Prime example. 2 months over a one day ban and not sure why the mod is going through "thousands" of posts

    this just being ignored is it?


  • #57
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »
    this just being ignored is it?

    No, it's a non issue.


  • #58
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,961 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Steve wrote: »
    No, it's a non issue.

    Leaving someone hanging with no response for weeks on end is a “non issue”

    Quite the attitude towards posters tbh.



    From what I’ve seen of DRP lately it’s become a complete waste of everyone’s time.

    The response times have become so pathetic that every appeal will be dragged out so it’ll be guaranteed that any ban has been completed and the punishment served before any decision is made. Ensure they’re punished for daring question the mod decision one way or another


  • #59
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Leaving someone hanging with no response for weeks on end is a “non issue”

    Quite the attitude towards posters tbh.



    From what I’ve seen of DRP lately it’s become a complete waste of everyone’s time.

    The response times have become so pathetic that every appeal will be dragged out so it’ll be guaranteed that any ban has been completed and the punishment served before any decision is made. Ensure they’re punished for daring question the mod decision one way or another

    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.


  • #60
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Having noted some of the comments about a current DRP thread I've had a look at that particular appeal and drawn it to a conclusion by overturning the ban given the length of time the appellant had been left waiting

    I would just add though that in all my time as a CMod I don't recall a DRP being left like that for so long. It is certainly not "typical" or "fairly typical" as someone suggested above


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  • #61
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,961 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

    Every user “contributes” to the income of the site by adding clicks that help the ad revenue - but it’s great that you feel you can display such contempt for “ordinary” users of the site.
    And people wonder why there’s complaints about the attitudes of some mods on here :rolleyes:


    It’s a pity that all the mods/cmods/admins don’t show the basic decency that Beasty has shown on this thread - might make the place seem a bit more welcoming to new users - you know, to help boost the revenues that you suddenly pretend to care about


  • #62
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    Steve wrote: »
    No, it's a non issue.
    .
    Beasty wrote: »
    Having noted some of the comments about a current DRP thread I've had a look at that particular appeal and drawn it to a conclusion by overturning the ban given the length of time the appellant had been left waiting

    I would just add though that in all my time as a CMod I don't recall a DRP being left like that for so long. It is certainly not "typical" or "fairly typical" as someone suggested above

    .


    :confused:

    :rolleyes:


  • #63
    droidman123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭droidman123


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

    This comment more or less sums up this site and why its a laughing stock


  • #64
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,646 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

    It's comments like this that really get posters backs up, you have literally insulted a poster and then fobbed off people claiming "an issue is not worth our time".

    It may not seem that way to you but for posters who do not wish to have cards/infractions against there name then it is an issue to them and the professional way to deal with them would be to engage with them and not just decide it's not worth your time and ignore them.


  • #65
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Beasty wrote: »
    It is certainly not "typical" or "fairly typical" as someone suggested above

    The fairly typical was in reference to the mod claiming to have to go through thousands of posts.


  • #66
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

    Fairly typical attitude displayed towards the users of the site here also.


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  • #67
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    ....... wrote: »
    The fairly typical was in reference to the mod claiming to have to go through thousands of posts.

    I dealt with over 150 DRPs as a CMod, and never had to, or indeed claimed to, go through that scale of posts, and I've never seen another DRP where a CMod said something like that


  • #68
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Beasty wrote: »
    I dealt with over 150 DRPs as a CMod, and never had to, or indeed claimed to, go through that scale of posts, and I've never seen another DRP where a CMod said something like that

    How would going through 1000s of posts be relevant at all?


  • #69
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary .....

    That's quite a rude and condescending post.


  • #70
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

    Jaysus the mask fairly slipped there! :eek:


  • #71
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    ....... wrote: »
    How would going through 1000s of posts be relevant at all?
    You are the one claiming it's "fairly typical" - I am simply pointing out it is nothing of the sort


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  • #72
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,917 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Beasty wrote: »
    I dealt with over 150 DRPs as a CMod, and never had to, or indeed claimed to, go through that scale of posts, and I've never seen another DRP where a CMod said something like that

    Pretty sure she was referring to this comment: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109004313&postcount=11


  • #73
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Beasty wrote: »
    You are the one claiming it's "fairly typical" - I am simply pointing out it is nothing of the sort

    Its a fairly typical attitude and it is fairly typical in DRP to be subjected to such an attitude along with long delays.

    Again I will ask - why would a mod have to go through 1000s of posts?

    Surely a mod action is based on perceived rule break in just one post. I am struggling to understand why a DRP would require going through 1000s of posts?


  • #74
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    ....... wrote: »

    Again I will ask - why would a mod have to go through 1000s of posts?
    I don't know. I have never had to do so. Hence all I can do is speculate. in this case it was in relation to a thread with many thousands of posts in it. maybe the CMod thought they needed to go through the whole thread to familiarise themself with the underlying topic. I will repeat though, that is simply speculation on my part.

    Given we are talking one DRP in the 2,000 or so that have taken place, I think your question is a little disproportionate in this discussion which is Feedback on the process and a perception that users are dealt with badly in DRP. Perhaps you could highlight some other areas of concern rather than returning repeatedly to this one example?


  • #75
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Steve wrote: »
    If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

    There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

    I apologise for this post, it can be hard to remain stiff upper lipped given that despite years of donating my free time here, all we get is criticism - after a rake of pints on a night out (where leinster pulled a win from nowhere) I think maybe y'all could cut me a bit of slack this time....:)


  • #76
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,646 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Steve wrote: »
    I apologise for this post, it can be hard to remain stiff upper lipped given that despite years of donating my free time here, all we get is criticism - after a rake of pints on a night out (where leinster pulled a win from nowhere) I think maybe y'all could cut me a bit of slack this time....:)

    One question for you, would you let a poster use this excuse if they were in DR or even worse boards prison?


  • #77
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    One question for you, would you let a poster use this excuse if they were in DR or even worse boards prison?

    lol of course not.


  • #78
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    Link

    User left for days with Radio Silence, even though, ostensibly, discussion was in fact taking place "in the background".

    Common decency is missing here, why was the simple courtesy of letting the guy know that those discussions were happening not even done? Instead he's left hanging, and to all intents and purposes, ignored.

    Rude at best, and the guy was not rude to begin with.
    Apologies for the (5 DAY) delay, but there was discussion taking place in the background

    The mod has agreed to overturn the card, and I have just removed it from your profile


  • #79
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Christ! So I'm in trouble for apologising now.

    Guess it's impossible to get any positive feedback from some:confused:


  • #80
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    Steve wrote: »
    I apologise for this post, it can be hard to remain stiff upper lipped given that despite years of donating my free time here, all we get is criticism - after a rake of pints on a night out (where leinster pulled a win from nowhere) I think maybe y'all could cut me a bit of slack this time....:)

    Looks like you are apologising for saying out loud what you really think and not for thinking it in the first place.

    All in all a bit of a Gerald Ratner moment


  • #81
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,646 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Beasty wrote: »
    Christ! So I'm in trouble for apologising now.

    Guess it's impossible to get any positive feedback from some:confused:

    I dont think that was meant towards you.

    Personally i find you are one of the more (pro)active mods and your apology in that thread shows that you do try to resolve situations.

    That was your one and only post in that thread whereas others who were actually involved in the infraction/thread could have taken 20 seconds to update the appellant as to the chat going on in the background instead of the said 5 days of nothing.


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  • #82
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Steve wrote: »
    I apologise for this post, it can be hard to remain stiff upper lipped given that despite years of donating my free time here, all we get is criticism - after a rake of pints on a night out (where leinster pulled a win from nowhere) I think maybe y'all could cut me a bit of slack this time....:)
    I was a mod here for a long time in Legal Discussion and Judges' Chambers (where we effectively doled out free legal advice to boards.ie on difficult posts). Unfortunately, I think a lot of mods act as if they'd prefer that they were moderating empty fora (heavy-handed moderation with excessive and immediate bans) - as if it's such a hassle and sacrifice to moderate; it's really not and if one feels that it is, they should just stop doing it... moderating boards.ie is hardly the most altruistic thing that someone can do.


  • #83
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I dont think that was meant towards you.

    Personally i find you are one of the more (pro)active mods and your apology in that thread shows that you do try to resolve situations.

    That was your one and only post in that thread whereas others who were actually involved in the infraction/thread could have taken 20 seconds to update the appellant as to the chat going on in the background instead of the said 5 days of nothing.

    yeah but, again, people in certain positions prefer to have a pop at me than address the points raised. It's very obvious what's going on here, again.

    Everything's fine in DRP, and no points of order should be raised, you go on a blacklist that allows constant niggling at you, in the hope you give up and piss off.


  • #84
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »
    Link

    User left for days with Radio Silence, even though, ostensibly, discussion was in fact taking place "in the background".

    Common decency is missing here, why was the simple courtesy of letting the guy know that those discussions were happening not even done? Instead he's left hanging, and to all intents and purposes, ignored.

    Rude at best, and the guy was not rude to begin with.

    I’ll take this one - yes, there was a bit of breakdown there in keeping the user informed, but there was discussion taking place in the background, and I was monitoring to make sure an outcome was reached. Last week was my first week back at work after the Christmas break, and providing interrim updates was not a priority. I was focused instead on trying to get the review wrapped up.


  • #85
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    One question for you, would you let a poster use this excuse if they were in DR or even worse boards prison?

    I'll certainly listen to any reasonable argument offered in DR, including one of 'oops, I was a bit drunk when I posted that' (within limits)

    I have no access to or influence over what happens in the prison forum.


  • #86
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    One question for you, would you let a poster use this excuse if they were in DR or even worse boards prison?
    Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »
    lol of course not.

    I've had at least one ban and one warning reversed after explaining that I was drunk posting.


  • #87
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,646 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    I've had at least one ban and one warning reversed after explaining that I was drunk posting.

    Fair play, I've seen many people get told that drunk posting is not an excuse and people are responsible for their own actions. I guess you caught the right mod on the right day.


  • #88
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Fair play, I've seen many people get told that drunk posting is not an excuse and people are responsible for their own actions. I guess you caught the right mod on the right day.

    Even picking out examples from the DRP archive (and I can't recall any off the top of my head) there are bound to be other factors considered. Owning up to being drunk is not likely to help if you have a poor record on the forum anyway. Equally a lot of this takes place in the first step of the DRP process and is not visible within the open threads

    Of course it is easy to pick examples to support your view and ignoring those that do not. I would say though, as a long time contributor and observer of the DRP, that the sort of thing that someone like bot42 picks are very carefully chosen and indeed carefully presented to try and get his digs in (and yes I genuinely believe he chose the above example as a personal dig at me - he has a record of doing so in this forum and indeed the Help Desk), forcing the likes of me to highlight this sort of behaviour (as I did above). I've little doubt he'll soon be back claiming victimisation, but as he carefully chooses his examples I'm doing the same here


  • #89
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    I've had at least one ban and one warning reversed after explaining that I was drunk posting.
    My drunk posts are the good ones - it's the sober ones I get in trouble for... do you think it'd work if I was like "soz, wasn't drunk!"


  • #90
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Beasty wrote: »
    Owning up to being drunk is not likely to help if you have a poor record on the forum anyway. Equally a lot of this takes place in the first step of the DRP process and is not visible within the open threads

    How long should a "poor record on the forum" be considered? Cards "expire" but they're still visible, bans seem to last forever and are considered no matter what... and "good behaviour" is never considered it seems.


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  • #91
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    How long should a "poor record on the forum" be considered? Cards "expire" but they're still visible, bans seem to last forever and are considered no matter what... and "good behaviour" is never considered it seems.

    Good behaviour, in my own experience as a mod and CMod, is considered all the time

    In terms of how long should mods go back, it is a judgement call. If someone has half a dozen actions in a forum in a year, a pattern emerges. If someone only has 3 actions over that period all in the first 6 months, but was unable to post due to a 6 month ban in the last 6 months, I would consider that a worse record. If someone has picked up a "technical" through, say, chat in a "no-chat" thread, I would pretty much ignore it unless they were going out of their way to contravene that rule. There is so much that is subjective, there can be no hard and fast rule.

    Even at site level, when we put posters on probation, it will usually be because of a poor overall record including a number of recent actions. If a poster has only had one mod action in the past 6 months, if they were not posting because they were banned, that's one thing. If they were posting away without being a bother, they would not be a "candidate" for probation. Indeed there have been one or two occasions when considering probation in the Admin forum, where we have taken the view that behaviour has been improving and have therefore left the poster alone. On other occasions I have PM'd posters warning them that further trouble was likely to lead to probation then being invoked

    We are all different, and the above are simply examples of the type of thing that goes on, and certainly not intended to lay down any "rules"


  • #92
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Beasty wrote: »
    Good behaviour, in my own experience as a mod and CMod, is considered all the time

    In terms of how long should mods go back, it is a judgement call. If someone has half a dozen actions in a forum in a year, a pattern emerges. If someone only has 3 actions over that period all in the first 6 months, but was unable to post due to a 6 month ban in the last 6 months, I would consider that a worse record. If someone has picked up a "technical" through, say, chat in a "no-chat" thread, I would pretty much ignore it unless they were going out of their way to contravene that rule. There is so much that is subjective, there can be no hard and fast rule.

    Even at site level, when we put posters on probation, it will usually be because of a poor overall record including a number of recent actions. If a poster has only had one mod action in the past 6 months, if they were not posting because they were banned, that's one thing. If they were posting away without being a bother, they would not be a "candidate" for probation. Indeed there have been one or two occasions when considering probation in the Admin forum, where we have taken the view that behaviour has been improving and have therefore left the poster alone. On other occasions I have PM'd posters warning them that further trouble was likely to lead to probation then being invoked

    We are all different, and the above are simply examples of the type of thing that goes on, and certainly not intended to lay down any "rules"
    I'm more thinking of someone that was banned, say 2 week ban or something... then nothing for like a year or more and then suddenly the next "infraction" (using it in its true sense rather than the red card sense) isn't a card, it's a straight 1 month ban because the last "infraction" was also a ban... no consideration given of time since last ban.

    I.e. why don't bans expire from people's records?


  • #93
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I'm more thinking of someone that was banned, say 2 week ban or something... then nothing for like a year or more and then suddenly the next "infraction" (using it in its true sense rather than the red card sense) isn't a card, it's a straight 1 month ban because the last "infraction" was also a ban... no consideration given of time since last ban.

    I.e. why don't bans expire from people's records?

    I can't comment on the system and how it records sanctions

    Personally if it was a 2 week ban over a year ago I would be unlikely to use it to "escalate" any new sanction.

    However I do think it is helpful knowing someone has picked up 60 mod actions over a 10 year period including 6 in the past year when considering probation

    If 50 of those actions were picked up in a single forum I might speak to local mods about removing access to that particular forum

    Again though I do not see how we could have hard and fast rules. Judgement will always come into it. Some of us are worse/better at exercising judgement than others. That's the world we live in. If we think a mod/CMod or indeed Admin was consistently exercising bad judgement you can expect someone will have a word. If that does not improve things we can then think about removing their "powers".


  • #94
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    Are you suggesting that I should come on to Feedback and point out where the system is working as it should?

    And no, that last example wasn't pointed out as a dig at you, it was pointed out because as shown, some poor fella was left hanging with no update for weeks while discussions were ongoing in the background, and nobody thought to update the person who was being discussed.

    I've no reason to have personal digs at you Beasty, and anyone reading this thread would be hard pushed to find me personally digging at anyone, you are once again attacking me, and getting away with it in a way that nobody else would on this forum.

    What you'd like here is for me to piss off and stop pointing out the times the process fails or breaks down, as if nothing ever goes wrong. My beef is not with anyone in particular, as much as you'd love it to be, but no, it's not, it's with the way the system and it's hierarchy treats people in a less than stellar war, fairly regularly. You are looking for a way, a reason, to shut this legitimate feedback down by making me out to be an axe grinder, but as you've (eventually) admitted yourself on one occasion in this thread, my points are not without merit, yet you continue to harass and bully me in an attempt to get me to go away and stop pointing out the failings of this process.

    I'd like for you to stop attacking me in this fashion, because I'm not doing it to anyone, not on this thread, and not anywhere else on this, or any other, website.


  • #95
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »

    I'd like for you to stop attacking me in this fashion, because I'm not doing it to anyone, not on this thread, and not anywhere else on this, or any other, website.
    Touche - not very nice is it?


  • #96
    s3rtvdbwfj81ch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    At every turn in this thread you've attacked me instead of addressing my points, you are an expert at it, an expert at denigrating people who have something to say not in keeping with your own worldview, especially when it comes to this website. Eventually, after this is pointed out for the umpteenth time, you may get around to admitting that the point raised is merited, but not until you've gotten your dig in first, like clockwork.

    Why do you have such a problem with people pointing out where the system has failed, or not worked optimally?


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  • #97
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I don't think the system has failed. I see a serial complainant looking for examples to support their complaints.

    Now I actually do believe you do feel there are issues that you think need addressing. I understand that you feel somehow let down by the site, and that as a result you look for opportunities to provide "feedback" in a way that you can get your digs in. Maybe you do not realise you are doing it, but I have witnessed it throughout my time as CMod and Admin

    I don't have much doubt that you believe you are right, and equally I acknowledge to often you have a valid point. Sometimes I simply do not agree, and sometimes the good points are drowned out by the way they are presented

    On some of the specifics of this thread, I can actually recall an example where you appealed a 1 day ban in Soccer and I made sure I dealt with that as a CMod (overturning the ban) before the ban was up. Alas it's not the type of example you would ever quote because it does not support your "cause"

    Now perhaps this should have been said to you some time ago. Rather than looking to "escalate" any issue you perceive with the site, perhaps be a bit more selective "battles" you decide to fight. That way your feedback gains a lot more credibility

    Anyway, I know this is taking things off topic, and indeed personalising things. I am doing it precisely because it is an approach you have adopted. I'll leave that there in the hope it gives you an opportunity for reflection, and in the bigger hope that we could see a return to you as a constructive poster across the site and indeed giving credit where it is due rather than looking on things so negatively so much of the time

    And yes, bottom line here is I am holding my hand out as a "peace" signal in the hope that you could perhaps do the same (not just to me, but generally to the people who do volunteer to try and make this a better place, and do not go out of their way to create or indeed encourage issues and problems)


  • #98
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    Beasty wrote: »
    I don't think the system has failed. I see a serial complainant looking for examples to support their complaints.

    Now I actually do believe you do feel there are issues that you think need addressing. I understand that you feel somehow let down by the site, and that as a result you look for opportunities to provide "feedback" in a way that you can get your digs in. Maybe you do not realise you are doing it, but I have witnessed it throughout my time as CMod and Admin

    I don't have much doubt that you believe you are right, and equally I acknowledge to often you have a valid point. Sometimes I simply do not agree, and sometimes the good points are drowned out by the way they are presented

    On some of the specifics of this thread, I can actually recall an example where you appealed a 1 day ban in Soccer and I made sure I dealt with that as a CMod (overturning the ban) before the ban was up. Alas it's not the type of example you would ever quote because it does not support your "cause"

    Now perhaps this should have been said to you some time ago. Rather than looking to "escalate" any issue you perceive with the site, perhaps be a bit more selective "battles" you decide to fight. That way your feedback gains a lot more credibility

    Anyway, I know this is taking things off topic, and indeed personalising things. I am doing it precisely because it is an approach you have adopted. I'll leave that there in the hope it gives you an opportunity for reflection, and in the bigger hope that we could see a return to you as a constructive poster across the site and indeed giving credit where it is due rather than looking on things so negatively so much of the time

    And yes, bottom line here is I am holding my hand out as a "peace" signal in the hope that you could perhaps do the same (not just to me, but generally to the people who do volunteer to try and make this a better place, and do not go out of their way to create or indeed encourage issues and problems)

    Hand of peace? You eviscerated him/her! :eek:

    The OP has made some valid points, that's all that should be discussed not sending them off to reflect and come back as a more constructive poster.


  • #99
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,392 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    The poster's orginal question was why do posters have to try discuss it with the mod before coming to DR.

    The simple answer is because in a lot of cases, doing this works and the mod and poster come to an agreement and it never gets as far as DR.

    In some cases it won't work and a DR will continue. However, if that first step wasn't a blanket rule, then it would increase the DR work load of a lot of people, much of the time unnecessarily. So yes, it might be a 'box ticking exercise' but it is a necessary step to make the DR forum more efficient.

    As for why the onus is on the poster to approach the Moderator.. The poster is the person looking for the decision to be changed. So it's up to them to ask for it to be changed.

    It's a system that works. It means from step 1 the process for everyone is the same. It might not be ideal from some people's perspective, but if there's an alternative then suggest it and I'm sure it would be considered.

    Just because an idea or suggestion is dismissed, doesn't mean it hadn't been considered. Suggestions and feedback are constantly being discussed, teased out and decisions made as to what will/won't work better.

    If a moderators attitude is unacceptable to posters then PMs should be reported. A one off instance may not warrant much action, but if a pattern emerges (much like with normal posters) the Moderator will be dealt with.


  • #100
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Big Bag of Chips wrote: »
    The poster's orginal question was why do posters have to try discuss it with the mod before coming to DR.

    The simple answer is because in a lot of cases, doing this works and the mod and poster come to an agreement and it never gets as far as DR.

    In some cases it won't work and a DR will continue. However, if that first step wasn't a blanket rule, then it would increase the DR work load of a lot of people, much of the time unnecessarily. So yes, it might be a 'box ticking exercise' but it is a necessary step to make the DR forum more efficient.

    As for why the onus is on the poster to approach the Moderator.. The poster is the person looking for the decision to be changed. So it's up to them to ask for it to be changed.

    It's a system that works. It means from step 1 the process for everyone is the same. It might not be ideal from some people's perspective, but if there's an alternative then suggest it and I'm sure it would be considered.

    Just because an idea or suggestion is dismissed, doesn't mean it hadn't been considered. Suggestions and feedback are constantly being discussed, teased out and decisions made as to what will/won't work better.

    If a moderators attitude is unacceptable to posters then PMs should be reported. A one off instance may not warrant much action, but if a pattern emerges (much like with normal posters) the Moderator will be dealt with.



    Dealing directly may have its upsides, but there's also downsides to it too.

    If, for example a poster has just been reprimanded, (in their eyes unfairly)from a moderator they might have previous with, polar opposite views with that moderators views on anything from football to political discussion, and may go at it hammer and tongs on other threads/forums.

    They are then expected to engage politely with same mod, basically asking them to reconsider their actions.

    Taking into consideration that they A, might be still reeling from whatever sanction they were given, and B, might not particularly have any time for the mod to begin with, it could be the perfect recipe for disaster too.

    Another thing needs looked at too is moderators who are seen to be taking a particular side in a discussion, banning/carding posters on the same thread with opposing views to their own.

    Stinks to the high heavens when someone is judge, jury and executioner all at the same time.

    If someone is perceived to have stepped out of line in a thread you have entrenched views on, for Christ sake have a bit of cop on and ask a colleague to intervene if you have a dog in the race.

    Otherwise, looks like you're silencing your critic and abusing your position.

    Edit, this isn't aimed at you BBOC, it's a general observation/thought of my own.


  • #101
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,392 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    Johnny Dogs, you raise excellent points. A moderator outside of his/her own forum is just an ordinary poster. So disputes or differences in other forums should not influence a moderators actions in their own forum. But, we are all human! And it can be difficult to separate the two. Which is why your suggestion of a moderator having the good sense to step aside and ask one of the other moderators to have a look instead is definitely how it should be done. And indeed, I know personally from the forums I moderate is something that we regularly do. I might have history with a poster and I have occasionally called my own judgement into question. In instances like that I, and my co-moderators have gone to our 'colleagues' and asked them to throw an eye on it instead. Sometimes action results, sometimes it doesn't.

    And, moderators shutting down opinion they don't agree on and handing out cards/bans is also something that is regularly discussed. It's not right and it's not how any forum should be run. Again, if it is a regular problem in a forum it needs to be brought to the attention of the category moderators, who simply cannot oversee all forums. Reported posts will generally be dealt with by the forum moderators so if posters feel they are not being dealt with appropriately and are getting no satisfaction from the moderators, a PM to the category moderators or a post on Feedback will start dialogue. Action mightn't be immediate or apparent, but all complaints are investigated and forums and moderators are then monitored more closely, and advice given. We hope the advice is taken on board. If its not, as mentioned by Beasty, moderator privileges are taken away


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