Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is Ireland an Egalitarian Society?

Options
  • 04-06-2020 11:39am
    #1
    Derdwerker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭


    In light of what’s happening across the Atlantic, I’ve developed a new appreciation for Ireland. We’re not perfect, but pretty much every citizen is afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Are we as close to egalitarian as possible? Why? Why not?


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    mr_fegelien
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭mr_fegelien


    No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.


  • Options
    #3
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Probably,


  • Options
    #4
    JL555
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    We do have a lot of opportunities here compared to other countries for sure, but also have a long way to go. Sure, we're not perfect, but no society is.
    Equality has come a long way here, but what is noticeable more and more IMO is that differences of opinion are not tolerated by certain people who, ironically enough are the very ones who proclaim they are in fact tolerant. I think that kind of divisive behaviour causes more erosions for equality as we strive to be more equal.


  • Options
    #5
    Derdwerker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭Derdwerker


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

    That’s not what egalitarian means though.


  • Options
    #6
    Derdwerker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭Derdwerker


    JL555 wrote: »
    We do have a lot of opportunities here compared to other countries for sure, but also have a long way to go. Sure, we're not perfect, but no society is.
    Equality has come a long way here, but what is noticeable more and more IMO is that differences of opinion are not tolerated by certain people who, ironically enough are the very ones who proclaim they are in fact tolerant. I think that kind of divisive behaviour causes more erosions for equality as we strive to be more equal.

    I’ve noticed this as well. The national student body in Ireland (can’t remember the name, too lazy to look it up) recently shot the down a motion to attempt to engage with all aspects of the political spectrum, which is a pretty damming thought.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    I’d say we’re not bad at all.

    Women, minorities, younger people and the working class are wildly underrepresented in politics but thankfully this is changing over time.


  • Options
    #8
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.
    Of course the Germans always knew how to make the most efficient use of railways for transporting large numbers of people


  • Options
    #9
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    We are egalitarian compared to the rest of the Anglosphere (we've never really been a full fledged, badge wearing Anglosphere member anyway). Compared to the mainland we are not egalitarian having adopted a partially-British view of ownership (cars and houses) and public services, you still get incels online here declaring fatwa against those who might live in social housing, while ignoring that in cities most Europeans live in social housing.

    I would say with certainty that our education system is very egalitarian.


  • Options
    #10
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I’d say we’re not bad at all.

    Women, minorities, younger people and the working class are wildly underrepresented in politics but thankfully this is changing over time.

    All agreed apart from the "younger people". There is nothing stopping young people from joining any of the parties.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Options
    #11
    Derdwerker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭Derdwerker


    Feisar wrote: »
    All agreed apart from the "younger people". There is nothing stopping young people from joining any of the parties.

    I don’t think there’s anything stopping any group joining/getting involved with parties or politics though.

    I’d imagine most parties would salivate at the idea of rolling out minority candidates at the hope of hoovering up votes.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    That would be an ecumenical matter.


  • Options
    #13
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Derdwerker wrote: »
    In light of what’s happening across the Atlantic, I’ve developed a new appreciation for Ireland. We’re not perfect, but pretty much every citizen is afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Are we as close to egalitarian as possible? Why? Why not?


    No, we’re nowhere near an egalitarian society, thankfully. It’s an awful ideology which requires perceiving all people in any given society as being born equal in the first place. Everyone in any given society has advantages and disadvantages which are peculiar to their circumstances, and some people make the most of the opportunities they see, other people don’t, and expect that the State should provide for them the same outcomes as people whom they see as having more advantages than them.

    I’m quite happy to live in a society which has no pretensions of egalitarianism and is more driven and motivated by fairness, than equality.


  • Options
    #14
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 11,932 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Derdwerker wrote: »
    I don’t think there’s anything stopping any group joining/getting involved with parties or politics though.

    I’d imagine most parties would salivate at the idea of rolling out minority candidates at the hope of hoovering up votes.

    Nothing stopping anyone running as an independent either really. Time is probably the only barrier for most people


  • Options
    #15
    Derdwerker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭Derdwerker


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    No, we’re nowhere near an egalitarian society, thankfully. It’s an awful ideology which requires perceiving all people in any given society as being born equal in the first place. Everyone in any given society has advantages and disadvantages which are peculiar to their circumstances, and some people make the most of the opportunities they see, other people don’t, and expect that the State should provide for them the same outcomes as people whom they see as having more advantages than them.

    I’m quite happy to live in a society which has no pretensions of egalitarianism and is more driven and motivated by fairness, than equality.

    Egalitarian means equality of opportunity in my mind, not equality of outcome. Not everyone is equal by nature.


  • Options
    #16
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Derdwerker wrote: »
    Egalitarian means equality of opportunity in my mind, not equality of outcome. Not everyone is equal by nature.


    Even by that definition, Irish society is more concerned with all people being treated fairly on the basis of merit, than all people being afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Of course all people aren’t equal by nature, and attempting to engineer society in a way that attempts to balance out those inequalities in the pursuit of equality is predicated upon treating people unfairly, which is why egalitarianism is just neither a popular social or political philosophy.


  • Options
    #17
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Equality means everybody goes up the same steps into a public building. Everyone gets treated the same. Fairness is providing a ramp for wheelchair access. Sometimes equality of outcome is what matters.


  • Options
    #18
    Risingshadoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Risingshadoo


    Derdwerker wrote: »
    In light of what’s happening across the Atlantic, I’ve developed a new appreciation for Ireland. We’re not perfect, but pretty much every citizen is afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Are we as close to egalitarian as possible? Why? Why not?

    No we're racist as fuk.


  • Options
    #19
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Equality means everybody goes up the same steps into a public building. Everyone gets treated the same. Fairness is providing a ramp for wheelchair access. Sometimes equality of outcome is what matters.


    Equality of outcome only matters to those people who perceive inequality or disadvantages in outcomes for other people whom they perceive as having an advantage or advantages in one way or another over them, advantages that they want, but haven’t earned and therefore aren’t entitled to.

    In your analogy it would be unfair for example to remove the steps for those people who can use them, in order to force everyone to use the ramp, so that those people who can’t use the steps aren’t at a disadvantage. The outcome is that some people are treated unfairly so that everyone is equally disadvantaged. With everyone using the ramps, access is still an issue for people who can’t use the steps, and now can’t use the ramps either.

    Equality of outcome is just short-sighted thinking.


  • Options
    #20
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,365 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Gini Co-efficient
    One measurement which is produced on equality is the Gini coefficient. This is the most commonly used measure of income inequality. The coefficient varies between 0, which reflects complete equality and 100, which indicates complete inequality (one person has all the income or consumption, all others have none). The Gini coefficient for Ireland in 2017 was 30.6, an increase from 29.6 in 2016. The Gini Coefficient in the EU in 2017 was 30.7. Across the EU it ranged from 40.2 in Bulgaria, to 24.5 in Czechia, and 26.0 in Belgium.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

    Widley considered the best mesuranment we are not doing badly at all.


  • Options
    #21
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,079 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Equality in Ireland hahaha no no we don't have equality here by any means, public and private hospitals where health insurance will jump you to the best of care, try being an adult with an intellectual disability trying to get by or garner support.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

    Taxes are not high in Ireland. They are middling.


  • Options
    #23
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Geuze wrote: »
    Taxes are not high in Ireland. They are middling.

    They’re high for what you get


  • Options
    #24
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    KiKi III wrote: »
    They’re high for what you get

    My parents pay 9% direct tax on 50k combined income.

    They get:

    two med cards
    two FTP
    free TV licence
    35 pm off elec

    as well as roads/hosps/educations, etc.

    9% direct tax on 50k is very, very low compared to other countries.

    We are a very generous country.


  • Options
    #25
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

    Bull****...ireland's health service is quite good besides people constantly peddling that it's comparable to a third world country.

    It constantly comes ahead of the UK's NHS in global rankings for instance:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-world-ranking-uk-healthcare-worse-ireland-spain-slovenia-30th-lancet-a7744131.html

    It came in 11th place in this Lancet study out of 195 countries:
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)30994-2/fulltext

    With Ireland it's a capacity issue with our health service and double jobing at an admin level that leads to money not being spend in the best possible way. As for the health service, my mother and father both had serious medical procedures carried out in the last decade and the care they got was unbelievable.


  • Options
    #26
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Geuze wrote: »
    My parents pay 9% direct tax on 50k combined income.

    They get:

    two med cards
    two FTP
    free TV licence
    35 pm off elec

    as well as roads/hosps/educations, etc.

    9% direct tax on 50k is very, very low compared to other countries.

    We are a very generous country.

    Your parent’s income at €25k each roughly is far below the average industrial wage. It makes sense that their tax would be low and that they would be entitled to supports.

    If you’re a single person earning €60k you get taxed a lot (about 30% overall) and get very little in terms of entitlements.


  • Options
    #27
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    They’re high for what you get


    They’re very low for what everyone gets though, which is the whole point of taxation - providing an income to the Exchequer in order that the State provides for services to society such as healthcare, infrastructure, education and so on. For what people are paying into the system, they’re getting incredible value. Individual taxpayers amounts really don’t amount to much in terms of the total amount of income generated by taxation.


  • Options
    #28
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

    Well if some people take care of themselves more and stop filling up doctors surgeries and emergency rooms with superficial injuries and illnesses like colds and flu's then we'd have more room for people who really need help. Like cancer patients, orthopaedic and long term illnesses, the elderly and kid's are very important too.
    Also people who have mental health problems should be looked after more.

    I'm 44 and I haven't been to the doctor in two years, it doesn't make me lesser or better than anyone else.
    But I get plenty of fresh air and water, eat properly and don't drink smoke or go drugging.
    Have some hobbies and a good social circle.

    I'm still a bit of a rogue and can stoke the flames of boards.ie but feck it, it's better out than in.

    If people drank less and stopped drugging and had a good life/work balance there's some room for important medical intervention for those that require it.


  • Options
    #29
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,674 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    No.

    There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin


  • Options
    #30
    Derdwerker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭Derdwerker


    RobbingBandit wrote: »
    Equality in Ireland hahaha no no we don't have equality here by any means, public and private hospitals where health insurance will jump you to the best of care, try being an adult with an intellectual disability trying to get by or garner support.

    Equality and egalitarianism are different. Equality is a myth, and completely unachievable.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,365 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    No.

    There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin

    That is predigest and petty snobbery which is a different thing.


Advertisement