Are you willing to learn Irish to keep the language alive

Reiver · 30-05-2015 7:29pm

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

No, but I plan to. I learned French but haven't bothered trying to remain fluent in it since I'll probably never visit France again but I'll definitely be visiting/living in Spain and/or other Spanish speaking countries so I'd like to be able to give a strong effort at talking to them in their own language. Gonna use stuff like Duolingo to learn the basics and go from there.

You learned Latin?

Fairplay

Duolingo is a great way to get the basics and start off, you'll have a better idea of what resources you want to use after it.

Nah, but a lot of our fancy English words have the same root. Used to teach in Spain and the kids were bewildered by the word balance, I said equilibrium and they all started nodding sagely and murmuring "si, equilibria" or something along those lines. Half the time if yer stuck you can just chance pronouncing the word in English with a Spanish accent and ye might get it

Grayson · 30-05-2015 7:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Having more Gaelscoileanna would be a huge thing. I know people say that they want their kids to learn more STEM subjects because they're more useful, but surely if they were taught as Gaeilge then the children won't be losing any STEM knowledge while gaining more knowledge of Irish?

Estonian kids are learning programming in school. Java might be a more useful language than Irish.

In many ways we're already behind other countries. Our Primary teachers all have to learn Irish and Religion. Most have very little STEM knowledge.

To be fair, most teachers aren't fluent in Irish either. Where would we get the people to teach in Irish.

Think of the between 1 and 1 1/2 hours spent teaching those Religion and Irish everyday already.

To recover Irish we do need to start from scratch and ditch the way it's been taught already but I have no idea if it's even possible to do that.

beks101 · 30-05-2015 7:38pm

I really don't get this hate for the Irish language. Maybe it's rooted in the archaic and immensely soul-destroyingly boring way it's taught in schools, with out-dated poems and plays and concepts that young people can't relate to. Can't say it was ever my favourite language at school.

I've lived abroad for several years now though and it's been immensely useful as well as enjoyable as a sort of back-room language I can use among Irish friends. So many slang words or terms we use have their roots in it - what's the craic, thanks a million, etc - there's a fascinating read on this called 'How the Irish invented Slang' by Daniel Cassidy.

I work for an American TV Network, and I've found it really handy professionally. Just the other day I was able to translate the results of the Irish referendum and send them out to the entire company ahead of our competitors, becausethe returning officer in Dublin Castle Ríona Ní Fhlanghaile announced them in Irish first. We're talking a few seconds here - but the world of live network news, this makes a world of difference.

I've also found myself translating Sean Nos songs for feature stories, shooting material with an Irish literature class in a Canadian university and doing rough translations of the material to write up a script for a Canadian news story from my desk etc. From my perspective as a journalist it's certainly not dead or useless. It's not as fundamental to what I do as Arabic would be for sure - but it's definitely been a unique selling point for me. It's played into our coverage of Irish events.

54and56 · 30-05-2015 7:38pm

No, languages which don't have a practical purpose die off as a predominantly spoken language. Why shouldn't Irish? Sentimentality isn't a good enough reason and isn't sustainable in the long term. It might take a number of generations but as a natively spoken language it will be gone. That's not to say it won't live on in Gael schools as a historical relic. If people are motivated by culture and history to learn and speak it part time that's fine with me.

Tombi! · 30-05-2015 7:42pm

I am. Went to a gaelscoil and never used it outside since I left. Years later and a fair bit of it is still in my head . I intend to make sure I become fluent in it.

Grayson · 30-05-2015 7:48pm

Tiger Tank wrote: »

Why would it not be possible to change a curriculum?

Curriculum change is one thing. Getting trained teachers is another. If we decided to teach say Java to kids, where do we get the teachers who know Java? And can you imagine getting every teacher in the country to learn Java in their holidays?

The same goes for Irish.

VG31 · 30-05-2015 7:55pm

The big problem with Irish in schools is how it's taught. They don't teach Irish like they do with French, German, Spanish etc. where students are taught basic grammar, phrases and vocabulary.
I remember Irish in primary school being the teacher speaking in class and you were somehow expected to pick it up from that.
There was no structured teaching like with other European languages.
I'd go as far to say I learned more French in first year than Irish in all my years in primary school.

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 7:57pm

salmocab wrote: »

My nephew was excused Irish in school as apparently he has a learning difficulty. It was the first thing that he was allowed drop. My Irish is abysmal because in secondary school I had very poor teacher and I had no interest, not sure which came first. I would love to learn it properly even just to have reasonable conversational Irish. I think a different approach to teaching needs to be taken.

Stick Duolingo on your Mobile and do a module whenever you have 10 minutes to spare. The mobile client doesn't do much about explaining things, you need to log into the website for that, but for those of us who have 12 years of school Irish somewhere back in the recesses of our minds, it helps bring it back.

Still can't get my head around the Tuiseal Ginneadach though!

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 8:05pm

Raf32 wrote: »

Probably the most useless subject I have ever studied.

Personally, I begrudge the time I wasted on Shakepeare far more.

jackofalltrades · 30-05-2015 8:14pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Yes but the point I am making is that it wouldn't be within your right as a parent if the Government decided to change the laws and make it mandatory for all children to be educated in Irish.

I'd say any rule to force children to be educated through Irish, would fall foul of Article 42 of the constitution.

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State

If you couldn't speak Irish then you would be denying a parent their right to educate their child.
That's my non-professional understanding of it.

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 8:15pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is Duolingo any good?

I installed the app on my phone a couple of months ago, and found it useful for "reactivating" a lot of the Irish that I had in the rusty recesses of my brain, and it was very convenient to use during the day when you have a few minutes to spare. But to get explanation for why certains things are done or said a certain way you have to use the website. And some of the explanations there are quite technical, which is all very well if you're a linguist, but if, like me, you can't tell a participle from a pluperfect, it can get daunting.

After 4 or 5 months, my vocabulary is much better, and I can translate simple sentences to and from Irish, but I'm not comfortable speaking Irish, because I can't translate it as quickly as I would need to, but that's really a practice thing.

Shep_Dog · 30-05-2015 8:18pm

beks101 wrote: »

I really don't get this hate for the Irish language.

Not many people hate Irish, they just don't want to speak it.

It's a bit like football. Just because I don't play it or watch it, does not mean I hate it.

kylith · 30-05-2015 8:26pm

I've been thinking of doing a Gael Linn course. Has anyone done one?

Dughorm · 30-05-2015 8:30pm

rosobel wrote: »

Simple fact is the Irish language is ugly, there is nothing poetic or beautiful about it. French, Italian, Spanish and even Russian roll off the tongue but speaking Irish is like speaking Klingon, you don't pronounce words you spit them. If there was a lot more vowels and a lot less consonants it would probably be more appealing but as it is now it is ugly and that whole thing with a fadda (sp?) over a vowel making it then sound like a different vowel is an exercise in redundancy, like why not just use the intended vowel in the first place?

Totally disagree!! - Irish isn't ugly at all, it has beautiful sensual tones, take this as an example:

Totally accept it's not to everyone's taste, but it's no Klingon

I'm no polyglot but I thought multiple languages have accents including several of the examples you give above

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 8:33pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again, covered all these points previously. To recap: you have no right to take freedom of choice and freedom of expession away from people.

That's one way of looking at it.

After the recent referendum, it seems likely that some businesses will be required to service same sex weddings "under protest". Do you think all businesses shoud be required to do buiness with customers through Irish, if that's what the customer wants, because to refuse to do so would "take freedom of choice and freedom of expession away from people."

(I only bring same-sex marriage up because it has thrown up this issue of a clash between what different people want, so people have been thinking about the limits between rights and responsibilities - I don't want to disrail this particular thread).

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 8:44pm

Grayson wrote: »

Estonian kids are learning programming in school. Java might be a more useful language than Irish.

I bet that they're taught Estonian as well! (and probably German or Russian and English).

Programming has almost nothing to do with language learning - pretty much every computer language uses english "words", and you can learn to program even if you cn't speak English.

Dughorm · 30-05-2015 8:45pm

Bayberry wrote: »

Stick Duolingo on your Mobile and do a module whenever you have 10 minutes to spare. The mobile client doesn't do much about explaining things, you need to log into the website for that, but for those of us who have 12 years of school Irish somewhere back in the recesses of our minds, it helps bring it back.

Still can't get my head around the Tuiseal Ginneadach though!

I never did in school either - and it will always be like that because English doesn't have the proper equivalent.

Funnily enough I only "got" the Tuiseal Ginneadeach when studying its equivalent in languages with "cases" such as ancient greek and latin. Many languages have it see more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive_case

Baggy Trousers · 30-05-2015 8:48pm

Trying to keep Irish alive is a complete waste of money which could be better spent.

zzfh · 30-05-2015 8:49pm

An bhfuil chead agam dul amach ar an leithreas?

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 8:50pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I'd say any rule to force children to be educated through Irish, would fall foul of Article 42 of the constitution.

If you couldn't speak Irish then you would be denying a parent their right to educate their child.
That's my non-professional understanding of it.

Actually, that means that the Government couldn't ban the existence of "English first" schools, and if people wanted to pay for their kids to attend them, they could. But it wouldn't necessarily mean that the Government couldn't provide "free eductaion" through the medium of Irish only, though I'm sure the lawyers would have something to say about that :-)

Streetwalker · 30-05-2015 8:52pm

No interest in it at all. I resented the fact you had to learn it in school I could have done with that free time for smoking behind the school shed.

rosobel · 30-05-2015 8:54pm

Dughorm wrote: »

Totally disagree!! - Irish isn't ugly at all, it has beautiful sensual tones, take this as an example:

Totally accept it's not to everyone's taste, but it's no Klingon

I'm no polyglot but I thought multiple languages have accents including several of the examples you give above

Sorry but that youtube video proves nothing other than how ugly it is as a language. Irish is like German, it's a guttural language that requires more emphasis on consonants than vowels. In many ways it is a primarily male language and before you all go ape **** I'll explain what I mean by that. When men speak they cut off their vowels whereas women elongate them, an example would be "Whatever", a man says "Yeah whatever!" whereas a woman says "yeah Whatevaaaaaa", same with "No", a man says "No!" whereas a woman says "Nooooo". When men end a sentence/word in a vowel they tend to pronounce it like a statement whereas women roll the vowel off their tongue and the Irish language (and German) is like that. Most words end in consonants so it makes it a gruff ugly language

rosobel · 30-05-2015 8:59pm

Case in point

zzfh wrote: »

An bhfuil chead agam dul amach ar an leithreas?

Every word ends in a consonant whereas

"Can I go to the toilet"

has 4 words that end in vowels and that's what makes Irish ugly

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 9:07pm

zzfh wrote: »

An bhfuil chead agam dul amach ar an leithreas?

why would you want to go out on the toilet?

Dughorm · 30-05-2015 9:08pm

rosobel wrote: »

When men speak they cut off their vowels whereas women elongate them, an example would be "Whatever", a man says "Yeah whatever!" whereas a woman says "yeah Whatevaaaaaa", same with "No", a man says "No!" whereas a woman says "Nooooo".

Men from cork say "Noooo" all the time?

rosobel wrote: »

Sorry but that youtube video proves nothing other than how ugly it is as a language. Irish is like German, it's a guttural language that requires more emphasis on consonants than vowels... Most words end in consonants so it makes it a gruff ugly language

French is a guttural language with the way the 'r' must be rolled and since when is french an ugly language? Just because a language may be guttural doesn't make it ugly.

A soothing voice makes for a beautiful tone no matter what the language.

Grayson · 30-05-2015 9:09pm

Bayberry wrote: »

I bet that they're taught Estonian as well! (and probably German or Russian and English).

Programming has almost nothing to do with language learning - pretty much every computer language uses english "words", and you can learn to program even if you cn't speak English.

I think you missed the point. It's a very valuable skill. The next 20 years are going to make the last 20 years in computing look tame.

We're talking about teaching kids a language like Irish. We should be looking at teaching them IT skills. Knowing how to program is a very valuable skill. It will be as important as learning basic maths.

And yet we're still teaching an Irish syllabus that doesn't work with no way to repair it.

Estonian Kids are being taught programming whilst ours are being taught a language that they will never speak. Not just because it's never used in day to day life for most but because we teach it so badly that they will spend 14 years and never actually learn it.

We either change the course so kids learn it or we ditch the wasted time and figure out how to use that wasted time constructively.

rosobel · 30-05-2015 9:10pm

Bayberry wrote: »

why would you want to go out on the toilet?

In all fairness considering not one of us can speak a word of Irish he was probably just saying he wants to take the piss

Bayberry · 30-05-2015 9:12pm

rosobel wrote: »

When men speak they cut off their vowels whereas women elongate them, an example would be "Whatever", a man says "Yeah whatever!" whereas a woman says "yeah Whatevaaaaaa", same with "No", a man says "No!" whereas a woman says "Nooooo". When men end a sentence/word in a vowel they tend to pronounce it like a statement whereas women roll the vowel off their tongue and the Irish language (and German) is like that. Most words end in consonants so it makes it a gruff ugly language

I've read some bull**** on boards, but that has to take the biscuit!

Grayson · 30-05-2015 9:13pm

rosobel wrote: »

Sorry but that youtube video proves nothing other than how ugly it is as a language. Irish is like German, it's a guttural language that requires more emphasis on consonants than vowels.

Strangely I find german sexy. I don't think Irish is. It's all a matter of personal taste.

rosobel · 30-05-2015 9:17pm

Dughorm wrote: »

Men from cork say "Noooo" all the time?

French is a guttural language with the way the 'r' must be rolled and since when is french an ugly language? Just because a language may be guttural doesn't make it ugly.

A soothing voice makes for a beautiful tone no matter what the language.

Now you are just arguing semantics, a soothing voice to you could be shrill to me, what you hear isn't what I hear so using that to argue that a voice masks the underlying flaws in the language is pointless

Are you willing to learn Irish to keep the language alive

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