RTE 'revamping' the Angelus slot

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 11:35am

murpho999 wrote: »

My mother is dead too, so what's your point.

If the angelus was taken off tv it does not mean that it does not exist anymore. You'd still have noon and 6pm to reflect and pray to them if you want.

Going to muslim countries and complaining about the call to prayer is completely different as that is something that is happening. If it's on TV then it will be in countries that are officially muslim and not secular.

The Angelus only offends those who want to feel offended. My point about my mother is the Angelus means something to me when I see it on TV or hear it on the radio.
To you it means nothing so should be removed, but it is a mute point as RTE are not removing it.

Don't read the Irish constitution then, it offends you as well. It refers to Jesus Christ.
The preamble states:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ,
Our constitution points to Ireland as being a Christian country.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 11:37am

Darkglasses wrote: »

Want to know how many times Michael Nugent has been on RTE? Christopher Hitchens was also on RTE. And plenty of other secular and athiest speakers.

On programs directly aimed at the non religious or to provide a counterpoint to a religious issue?

Tarzana2 · 20-10-2015 11:37am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The Angelus is seven minutes programming per week for a country where 84% of the population identify as Roman Catholic. If proportionate representation were made to accommodate the number of people in Ireland who identify as atheist, we wouldn't even be talking minutes per week, we'd be measuring the time given to programming for people who identify as atheist, in seconds.

I honestly think a lot of people identify as cultural Catholics only. It's your background but not what you believe type thing. And don't forget that a lot of census formed are filled in by one person.

Kev W · 20-10-2015 11:38am

RobertKK wrote: »

The Angelus only offends those who want to feel offended. My point about my mother is the Angelus means something to me when I see it on TV or hear it on the radio.
To you it means nothing so should be removed, but it is a mute point as RTE are not removing it.

Don't read the Irish constitution then, it offends you as well. It refers to Jesus Christ.
The preamble states:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ,
Our constitution points to Ireland as being a Christian country.

The preamble is not actually a part of the constitution. It's the preamble.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 11:39am

RobertKK wrote: »

The Angelus only offends those who want to feel offended. My point about my mother is the Angelus means something to me when I see it on TV or hear it on the radio.
To you it means nothing so should be removed, but it is a mute point as RTE are not removing it.

Don't read the Irish constitution then, it offends you as well. It refers to Jesus Christ.
The preamble states:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ,
Our constitution points to Ireland as being a Christian country.

When the constitution was written Ireland was a Catholic country but times change and television should reflect that especially the state broadcaster.

The Randy Riverbeast · 20-10-2015 11:41am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm Roman Catholic, voted for marriage equality, because there's a difference between my personal religious beliefs, and the Irish Constitution as it applies to all citizens of the State, both religious and non-religious.

I like seamus' idea of a multicultural, multidenominational broadcast too.

Exactly, but we often have people who say because you are Catholic you must be for the angelus etc and everyone else is just a minority and should put up with it.

It can be clearly seen that Catholics have a wide variety of views and can still support or oppose something regardless of their religion.

Darkglasses · 20-10-2015 11:42am

Kev W wrote: »

Your argument was that if there are to be no religious programmes there should be no anti-religious programmes.

Where did I say that? Think you're confusing me with somebody else.

Kev W · 20-10-2015 11:43am

Darkglasses wrote: »

Where did I say that? Think you're confusing me with somebody else.

I see that I have. Sorry about that.

LordSutch · 20-10-2015 11:44am

The Angelus is the TV equivalent of the human apendix (a useless relic from our evolutionary Catholic past).

Wake up and smell the roses, its now the 21st century and we ain't tied to Rome (or Donnybrook) anymore.

RTE should let the Angelus die, and I guarantee people will still take time out to pray, not necessarily bang on six pm of an evening, but Irish people will still pray as and when they want (without any bongs).

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 11:44am

eviltwin wrote: »

When the constitution was written Ireland was a Catholic country but times change and television should reflect that especially the state broadcaster.

84% of people said they were Catholic in the last census.
Surely it can be argued RTE are reflecting this?

biko · 20-10-2015 11:48am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I like seamus' idea of a multicultural, multidenominational broadcast too.

Just start the news one minute earlier and let various religions do their adoration in allocated areas such as churches or synagogues.

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 11:53am

RobertKK wrote: »

The Angelus only offends those who want to feel offended. My point about my mother is the Angelus means something to me when I see it on TV or hear it on the radio.
To you it means nothing so should be removed, but it is a mute point as RTE are not removing it.

Don't read the Irish constitution then, it offends you as well. It refers to Jesus Christ.
The preamble states:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ,
Our constitution points to Ireland as being a Christian country.

Who said I was offended?

I'm not offended by it but I feel it should bot be on state TV. One does not have to be offended by something to feel that something is not right.
However there is a strong Catholic bias within RTE as evidenced in their news coverage (Every accident involves an interview with the parish priest, who most likely did not involve the person involved).

I'm not sure about the constitution but the preamble should be amended to a more modern one and as already pointed out no religious references are not contained in the body.

Daith · 20-10-2015 11:53am

RobertKK wrote: »

84% of people said they were Catholic in the last census.
Surely it can be argued RTE are reflecting this?

Actually it seems RTE want to reflect a muti-faith and no faith mixed society which is what Ireland actually is.

I wouldn't be clinging to closely to the census results.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 11:54am

RobertKK wrote: »

84% of people said they were Catholic in the last census.
Surely it can be argued RTE are reflecting this?

84% of people ticked a box, it doesn't make them Catholic. What's mass attendance like these days, that would be a more accurate figure. Do you really think 84% of people pray the Angeleses?

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 11:54am

RobertKK wrote: »

84% of people said they were Catholic in the last census.
Surely it can be argued RTE are reflecting this?

So what air time do the 16% non Catholic get?

VinLieger · 20-10-2015 11:55am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The Angelus is seven minutes programming per week for a country where 84% of the population identify as Roman Catholic. If proportionate representation were made to accommodate the number of people in Ireland who identify as atheist, we wouldn't even be talking minutes per week, we'd be measuring the time given to programming for people who identify as atheist, in seconds.

RobertKK wrote: »

84% of people said they were Catholic in the last census.
Surely it can be argued RTE are reflecting this?

Anyone who uses the 84% figure is deluded. If it were accurate the marriage referndum would never have passed and churches around the country wouldnt be reporting attendance rates of less than 30%.

Ush1 · 20-10-2015 11:56am

RobertKK wrote: »

The Angelus only offends those who want to feel offended. My point about my mother is the Angelus means something to me when I see it on TV or hear it on the radio.
To you it means nothing so should be removed, but it is a mute point as RTE are not removing it.

Don't read the Irish constitution then, it offends you as well. It refers to Jesus Christ.
The preamble states:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ,
Our constitution points to Ireland as being a Christian country.

If it's Christian, surely we can include something for the Orange Order in there before the news also.

One eyed Jack · 20-10-2015 12:04pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Anyone who uses the 84% figure is deluded. If it were accurate the marriage referndum would never have passed and churches around the country wouldnt be reporting attendance rates of less than 30%.

You realise that's like saying that people who identify as gay cannot identify as gay unless they're having sex with people who identify as the same gender as themselves?

Would you say to a virgin that they can't identify as gay if they've never had sex?

That'd be just rude. I'm not sure they'd take you seriously anyway. Just like 84% of people in Ireland don't like to be told they aren't what they identify as because they don't meet your standards.

OldGoat · 20-10-2015 12:04pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The Angelus only offends those who want to feel offended. My point about my mother is the Angelus means something to me when I see it on TV or hear it on the radio.
To you it means nothing so should be removed, but it is a mute point as RTE are not removing it.

Don't read the Irish constitution then, it offends you as well. It refers to Jesus Christ.
The preamble states:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ,
Our constitution points to Ireland as being a Christian country.

I have a huge problem with that aspect of the constitution. For example I could never be sworn in as President because I would be required to read an oath "In the presence of Almighty God". As I would be unwilling to start of my Presidency with an hyprociful oath the constitution would seem to bar me and any other non-religious and non-Christian people from office.
I'm pretty sure we might be allowed to affirm rather than swear but that would probably require a re-wording of the constitution and another referendum.

My disappointment at this whole farce is that we are expected to be gullible enough to swallow that the Angelus "Moment of Reflection" being broadcast at midday and six is anything but the Christian call to prayer. A secular country SHOULD allow for theist broadcasts but to expect anyone non Christian to see the Angelus as being inclusive is ridiculous as me claiming that the chant of an iman (broadcast on the telly) is a moment of reflection for all Catholics.

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:05pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Who said I was offended?

I'm not offended by it but I feel it should bot be on state TV. One does not have to be offended by something to feel that something is not right.
However there is a strong Catholic bias within RTE as evidenced in their news coverage (Every accident involves an interview with the parish priest, who most likely did not involve the person involved).

I'm not sure about the constitution but the preamble should be amended to a more modern one and as already pointed out no religious references are not contained in the body.

A parish priest is often the person in society who is the person that people expect as the person who will comfort a family or person who find themselves in a difficult situation like a bereavement.
In most areas of the country it could be argued the parish priest is one of the central people to that community given he will likely be baptising a child or burying one's dead, and will have to deal face to face with families who have tragedy in their lives.

Article 44.1 states: The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

VinLieger · 20-10-2015 12:05pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You realise that's like saying that people who identify as gay cannot identify as gay unless they're having sex with people who identify as the same gender as themselves?

Would you say to a virgin that they can't identify as gay if they've never had sex?

That'd be just rude. I'm not sure they'd take you seriously anyway. Just like 84% of people in Ireland don't like to be told they aren't what they identify as because they don't meet your standards.

But you are using exactly the same generalisation how do you know which parts of catholic teaching those 84% believe in? They certainly don't seem to care about gay marriage or regularly attending mass so who are you to declare they all agree with the angelus either?

Daith · 20-10-2015 12:07pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Would you say to a virgin that they can't identify as gay if they've never had sex?

What a nonsense post.

I identified as gay long before having sex. Being gay isn't all about having sex.

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 12:12pm

RobertKK wrote: »

A parish priest is often the person in society who is the person that people expect as the person who will comfort a family or person who find themselves in a difficult situation like a bereavement.
In most areas of the country it could be argued the parish priest is one of the central people to that community given he will likely be baptising a child or burying one's dead, and will have to deal face to face with families who have tragedy in their lives.

Article 44.1 states: The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

I don't get your constant quoting of the constitution? That can always be amended, as recently happened with gay marriage and I'm sure those references will eventually be updated.

I think your viewpoint of the priest in society is dated and they have less influence in communities that they have had in the past. Certainly in urban areas. I don't think the parish priest where I live would know any of my family or friends or people that I know.

One eyed Jack · 20-10-2015 12:12pm

VinLieger wrote: »

But you are using exactly the same generalisation how do you know which parts of catholic teaching those 84% believe in? They certainly don't seem to care about gay marriage or regularly attending mass so who are you to declare they all agree with the angelus either?

I didn't make any such claim?

All I said was that 84% of the population identify as Roman Catholic. If you believe only grannies and mammies in the household fill out their family tree on the census, then you're going to have to show something more substantial than anecdotes to back up your claims.

OldGoat · 20-10-2015 12:18pm

RobertKK wrote: »

A parish priest is often the person in society who is the person that people expect as the person who will comfort a family or person who find themselves in a difficult situation like a bereavement.
In most areas of the country it could be argued the parish priest is one of the central people to that community given he will likely be baptising a child or burying one's dead, and will have to deal face to face with families who have tragedy in their lives.

Much the same as the publican then.

VinLieger · 20-10-2015 12:19pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't make any such claim?

All I said was that 84% of the population identify as Roman Catholic. If you believe only grannies and mammies in the household fill out their family tree on the census, then you're going to have to show something more substantial than anecdotes to back up your claims.

And you will need to come up with something more accurate than what was an incredibly weighted question in a census where agnostic and atheist were not even listed as options

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:19pm

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't get your constant quoting of the constitution? That can always be amended, as recently happened with gay marriage and I'm sure those references will eventually be updated.

I think your viewpoint of the priest in society is dated and they have less influence in communities that they have had in the past. Certainly in urban areas. I don't think the parish priest where I live would know any of my family or friends or people that I know.

You contradict yourself. On one hand you say it is dated, but you also said RTE near always have a parish priest on when there is an accident.

Maybe the reality is the parish priest is still a central person to most communities in this country.

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:21pm

OldGoat wrote: »

Much the same as the publican then.

There are no pubs in my local community.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 12:21pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't make any such claim?

All I said was that 84% of the population identify as Roman Catholic. If you believe only grannies and mammies in the household fill out their family tree on the census, then you're going to have to show something more substantial than anecdotes to back up your claims.

What's mass attendance like these days? Do you really believe that 84% of the people in this country meet the criteria to be practicing Catholics? Being baptised and ticking a box isn't what makes a person Catholic.

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 12:24pm

RobertKK wrote: »

You contradict yourself. On one hand you say it is dated, but you also said RTE near always have a parish priest on when there is an accident.

Maybe the reality is the parish priest is still a central person to most communities in this country.

No I think RTE are portraying a dated image of Ireland that every community is closely involved with the church when the reality is different.

If it is the reality then Ireland is more old fashioned then I realised but I don't think so as was evidenced in the recent referendum where the vast majority voted against the church's teachings.

OldGoat · 20-10-2015 12:24pm

RobertKK wrote: »

There are no pubs in my local community.

Is there a doctor? A doctor would have as much community standing as the local priest. Or perhaps a lawyer.
I was being flippant about your reply, not meaning anything more than to show a little reality to your lionising of the priest. And I was off topic. Sorry about that.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 12:30pm

RobertKK wrote: »

There are no pubs in my local community.

A priest may be well known sure much the same way the person who runs the local shop or gaa team is, principal of the school, local scumbag family I know them all...doesn't mean they have any specific relevance or hold any specific position.

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:36pm

murpho999 wrote: »

No I think RTE are portraying a dated image of Ireland that every community is closely involved with the church when the reality is different.

If it is the reality then Ireland is more old fashioned then I realised but I don't think so as was evidenced in the recent referendum where the vast majority voted against the church's teachings.

I don't think it is old fashioned. It is what most people want. A priest for example is use to dealing with people who are grieving. He is there for the local people to turn to in time of grief.
It is good for a community that they have someone like this.

It is the same reason why most don't mind having the Angelus on everyday. A vocal minority will complain, the rest don't care or may say the Angelus.
It would be people within the minority 16% that have a problem to the extent they complain about it.

As for the referendum, I am sure some reconciled it with the words of Jesus, 'give unto Caesar what is Caesars'. As in state marriage being state marriage and not a union joined together by God.

One eyed Jack · 20-10-2015 12:38pm

VinLieger wrote: »

And you will need to come up with something more accurate than what was an incredibly weighted question in a census where agnostic and atheist were not even listed as options

I see, so you're claiming 84% of the population are also illiterate now? Because that's the obvious inference you're making there. As it happens my wife had no great difficulty reading the census questions and ticking the 'no religion' option for herself.

eviltwin wrote: »

What's mass attendance like these days? Do you really believe that 84% of the people in this country meet the criteria to be practicing Catholics? Being baptised and ticking a box isn't what makes a person Catholic.

It doesn't matter what I do or don't believe. What matters is what those people believe about themselves, and if they claim to be Roman Catholic, and it turns out that 84% of people choose the same option on the census, it's a bit rich for anyone to be claiming 84% of 6.5 billion people all copied each others homework, or had their granny fill out the census form for everyone else.

Which sounds more likely to you?

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:41pm

eviltwin wrote: »

A priest may be well known sure much the same way the person who runs the local shop or gaa team is, principal of the school, local scumbag family I know them all...doesn't mean they have any specific relevance or hold any specific position.

I think you will find priests are the people most involved in a large majority of funerals in Ireland, and are thus whether people like it or not central to most communities in Ireland.

One eyed Jack · 20-10-2015 12:41pm

murpho999 wrote: »

No I think RTE are portraying a dated image of Ireland that every community is closely involved with the church when the reality is different.

If it is the reality then Ireland is more old fashioned then I realised but I don't think so as was evidenced in the recent referendum where the vast majority voted against the church's teachings.

Erm, in case it slipped your attention, they voted for civil marriage equality, the oldest social contract known to man. If that's not old fashioned, I don't know what is!

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:42pm

OldGoat wrote: »

Is there a doctor? A doctor would have as much community standing as the local priest. Or perhaps a lawyer.
I was being flippant about your reply, not meaning anything more than to show a little reality to your lionising of the priest. And I was off topic. Sorry about that.

No local doctor. No lawyer.

OldGoat · 20-10-2015 12:47pm

RobertKK wrote: »

No local doctor. No lawyer.

So your community example is not really reflective of the country as a whole then.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 12:48pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I see, so you're claiming 84% of the population are also illiterate now? Because that's the obvious inference you're making there. As it happens my wife had no great difficulty reading the census questions and ticking the 'no religion' option for herself.

It doesn't matter what I do or don't believe. What matters is what those people believe about themselves, and if they claim to be Roman Catholic, and it turns out that 84% of people choose the same option on the census, it's a bit rich for anyone to be claiming 84% of 6.5 billion people all copied each others homework, or had their granny fill out the census form for everyone else.

Which sounds more likely to you?

Believing yourself to be something doesn't make it so. I could call myself Catholic, I am baptised. I haven't set foot in a church in 23 years though and I don't follow or believe any of their teachings so am I really entitled to see myself as Catholic? Or is ticking a box every few years the sum of it nowadays?

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 12:48pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Erm, in case it slipped your attention, they voted for civil marriage equality, the oldest social contract known to man. If that's not old fashioned, I don't know what is!

Yes, the idea of voting for same sex marriage is an ancient concept and is fully endorsed and promoted by the church same as contraception, abortion and divorce.

eviltwin · 20-10-2015 12:49pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I think you will find priests are the people most involved in a large majority of funerals in Ireland, and are thus whether people like it or not central to most communities in Ireland.

What does that prove?

They provide the service, it doesn't mean they are central to the lives of anyone.

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:52pm

OldGoat wrote: »

So your community example is not really reflective of the country as a whole then.

It would be representative of large swathes of the country which are rural.

VinLieger · 20-10-2015 12:52pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I see, so you're claiming 84% of the population are also illiterate now? Because that's the obvious inference you're making there. As it happens my wife had no great difficulty reading the census questions and ticking the 'no religion' option for herself.

It doesn't matter what I do or don't believe. What matters is what those people believe about themselves, and if they claim to be Roman Catholic, and it turns out that 84% of people choose the same option on the census, it's a bit rich for anyone to be claiming 84% of 6.5 billion people all copied each others homework, or had their granny fill out the census form for everyone else.

Which sounds more likely to you?

No im claiming the majority of people who ticked catholic would have chosen agnostic if they had ever had agnosticism explained to them and if it had been a choice. People in this country chose catholic due to ignorance, family pressure and so they hilariously so they could say they did.

84 % of this country are not practicing catholics by any definition of the meaning therefore using it as a figure to push a catholic agenda like the angelus is willfully ignorant.

One eyed Jack · 20-10-2015 12:53pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes, the idea of voting for same sex marriage is an ancient concept and is fully endorsed and promoted by the church same as contraception, abortion and divorce.

What has same sex civil marriage got to do with the church?

Or do you think other people besides yourself can't tell the difference either?

realdanbreen · 20-10-2015 12:53pm

Hitchens wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/rté-revamps-angelus-broadcast-with-new-films-and-public-vote-1.2398066

Well done, another bit of pandering by the State Broadcaster!

? Elaborate hitch.

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 12:53pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't think it is old fashioned. It is what most people want. A priest for example is use to dealing with people who are grieving. He is there for the local people to turn to in time of grief.
It is good for a community that they have someone like this.

It is the same reason why most don't mind having the Angelus on everyday. A vocal minority will complain, the rest don't care or may say the Angelus.
It would be people within the minority 16% that have a problem to the extent they complain about it.

As for the referendum, I am sure some reconciled it with the words of Jesus, 'give unto Caesar what is Caesars'. As in state marriage being state marriage and not a union joined together by God.

I really think families turn to each other for support at times of grief. Interactions I have seen with priests involve arranging funerals and masses etc.
To be honest I really don't recognise this Ireland you talk of and wonder where it is as you have no pub, solicitor or doctor either.

A vocal minority "complaining" as you put it is not wrong and is how all movements start.
Sure look at the vocal minority of Catholics in the North complaining about rights in the 60s. Were they wrong ?

Your Caesar comment about the referendum truly defies belief.

VinLieger · 20-10-2015 12:55pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What has same sex civil marriage got to do with the church?

Or do you think other people besides yourself can't tell the difference either?

Emmm cus they have opposed it at ever turn and asked apparently 84% of the country to do the same cus they are all avid catholics and seemingly were ignored

realdanbreen · 20-10-2015 12:56pm

RobertKK wrote: »

No local doctor. No lawyer.

What part of West Clare are you living in?

murpho999 · 20-10-2015 12:56pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What has same sex civil marriage got to do with the church?

Or do you think other people besides yourself can't tell the difference either?

Simple: People here are arguing that 84% recognise themselves as Catholic and living the Catholic lifestyle as promoted by the church and would want the Angelus on TV.

However, the church tells it's flock to vote No in the referendum.

62% of voters defy this and vote yes. Something is wrong there and makes me think that the 84% figure is incorrect.

RobertKK · 20-10-2015 12:59pm

eviltwin wrote: »

What does that prove? They provide the service, it doesn't mean they are central to the lives of anyone.

The service they provide is central to a lot of people in this country.

RTE 'revamping' the Angelus slot

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