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Extreme hate preacher banned from all Europe to visit Ireland

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    #32
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    RobbingBandit wrote: »
    A whole lot of effort has gone into investigating this guy yet thousands come through the borders here unchecked whom ever did the checking on this guy why aren't they using that shrewd sense for more productive means

    Yeah, thats a completely separate topic...

    And for those going on about surpressing freedom of speech, think about this:

    Freedom of speech is a right, yes. With any right though, comes a responsibility. In this case the responsibility is to not use that free speech to incite hatred against others. If the authorities have reasonable belief that the main purpose of the visit is to abuse that right, they do have the right and responsibility to say no, as numerous authorities have.

    It neither is nor was a way to silence an opinion that is just not liked.


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    #33
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    tritriagain wrote: »
    You should be able to listen to these people and then just say" aw would u ever rev up and fu## off."

    Effectively, isn't this exactly what has happened? We're not so isolated that we can't find out what this guy has to say. Google and YouTube and Wikipedia exist. It's perfectly well known what he wants to say, and he has been perfectly well told to rev up and **** off.

    Can he think and say whatever he wants? Sure he can.

    Should we grant him entry to our country to say those things to an audience here? I don't see why we would.


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    #34
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    Goodshape wrote: »
    Effectively, isn't this exactly what has happened? We're not so isolated that we can't find out what this guy has to say. Google and YouTube and Wikipedia exist. It's perfectly well known what he wants to say, and he has been perfectly well told to rev up and **** off.

    Can he think and say whatever he wants? Sure he can.

    Should we grant him entry to our country to say those things to an audience here? I don't see why we would.


    Fair enough. But where is the actual line for banning people. If he was a high profile Muslim with the same views I don't think he would be banned for fear of the country being labelled rascist


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    #35
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    tritriagain wrote: »
    If he was a high profile Muslim with the same views I don't think he would be banned for fear of the country being labelled rascist

    Well that's simply due to our Government's policy of actively suppressing the thoughts and views of rich white American males while kowtowing to anything the Quran has to say. Obviously.

    I mean, the signs are all there if you just close your eyes and imagine them.

    #WakeUpSheeple!


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    #36
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I'm tempted to contact him and read out what he wants said.
    I wouldn't agree with anything he has to say and it would be very tough for me to read it out

    Let us know how you get on

    :rolleyes:

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #37
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    Goodshape wrote: »
    Well that's simply due to our Government's policy of actively suppressing the thoughts and views of rich white American males while kowtowing to anything the Quran has to say. Obviously.

    I mean, the signs are all there if you just close your eyes and imagine them.

    #WakeUpSheeple!
    Oh so I'm imagining homophobic views by certain sections of Islam. Ok. At least I know now.


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    #38
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    tritriagain wrote: »
    Oh so I'm imagining homophobic views by certain sections of Islam. Ok. At least I know now.

    That's nothing at all like what I said.


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    #39
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    Goodshape wrote: »
    That's nothing at all like what I said.

    I must have picked you up wrong then.i apologise.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Edgarfrndly wrote:
    How many times does this have to be said so people like you understand it?

    People like me?

    People who believe that it is ok to speak their mind? It's ok for people to have horrific thoughts once they don't verbalise them?


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    #41
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,902 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I can't. I don't like the idea that we can shut down people's right to say what they believe in just because we don't agree with it.

    I'd prefer to be able to hear what my opponents have to say rather than give them credence by making their words unspeakable.

    But sure, as long as you don't hear anything that offends you, life is good.

    This isnt about mere offence. This is about someone who is more or less calling for us all to be slaughtered becsuse of our sexual orientation or gender identity. There is a reason over 30 European countries have banned him.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #42
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,902 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    People like me?

    People who believe that it is ok to speak their mind? It's ok for people to have horrific thoughts once they don't verbalise them?

    Incitement to hatred is not ok

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #43
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »

    People who believe that it is ok to speak their mind? It's ok for people to have horrific thoughts once they don't verbalise them?

    He has verbalized them so now people know his horrific thoughts. Your argument here is if he had those thoughts but didn’t speak them then we’d be okay with it, when really if he didn’t speak them then we wouldn’t know he had them so couldn’t be okay with them.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I've no interest in hearing what this Pastor has to say, but I fear that banning people from entering the country, because we they inspire hate is wrong.

    As previous posters have mentioned, banning him wont make much difference to people who believe in what he has to say. There is an internet out there, where I'm sure you can find all of his videos/speeches/etc.
    We should probably ban the internet, so that his speeches can't be accessed

    What we really should be focusing on, is why people listen to him, and follow his ideas. Lets figure that out, and see if we can help the people who might be filled with hate. Banning the pastor wont change these peoples thoughts, and has just brought further attention to him.
    I have never heard of this man before, and now I have.


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    #45
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Letting people like this in to spread hate has real-world consequences.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-anti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html
    One of the first to investigate links between American conservatives and the African anti-gay movement was Kipya Kaoma, a Zambian clergyman living in Boston. Homosexuality was illegal in Uganda under existing colonial laws, he explained, “But nobody was ever arrested or prosecuted based on those old laws. People turned a blind eye to it. Homosexuality was not a political issue.”

    That changed in 2009, Rev Kaoma said, when a group of American evangelicals led by Pastor Scott Lively, a self-proclaimed expert on the “gay movement”, held a series of talks in Uganda. Mr Lively warned audiences that the “evil institution” of homosexuality sought to “prey upon” and recruit Ugandan children in a bid to “defeat the marriage-based society”.

    Dr Frank Mugisha, director of the LGBT rights organisation, Sexual Minorities Uganda (Smug), recently told The Independent on Sunday, “[The idea] of a gay agenda, of recruiting people to homosexuality – that language wasn't used in Uganda pre-2009. [Lively] made my work very difficult and was conspiring with my legislators, but [to Ugandans] he was like God himself. People were worshipping him as if he was from heaven.”

    It's extremely easy to be all 'let them speak and let their arguments be debunked with RATIONALITY' when it's not you they want to exterminate. They don't have rational arguments or rational postions - all they have is bigotry and hatred.


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    #46
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I've no interest in hearing what this Pastor has to say, but I fear that banning people from entering the country, because we they inspire hate is wrong.

    As previous posters have mentioned, banning him wont make much difference to people who believe in what he has to say. There is an internet out there, where I'm sure you can find all of his videos/speeches/etc.
    We should probably ban the internet, so that his speeches can't be accessed

    What we really should be focusing on, is why people listen to him, and follow his ideas. Lets figure that out, and see if we can help the people who might be filled with hate. Banning the pastor wont change these peoples thoughts, and has just brought further attention to him.
    I have never heard of this man before, and now I have.

    But you would have heard of him regardless once he was here, this thread was started before there was an inkling of the government stopping him coming. He would have made all the papers wherever he ended up preaching.
    Banning people from entering the country because they inspire hate seems like a very good idea to me.


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    salmocab wrote: »
    But you would have heard of him regardless once he was here, this thread was started before there was an inkling of the government stopping him coming. He would have made all the papers wherever he ended up preaching.
    Banning people from entering the country because they inspire hate seems like a very good idea to me.

    Just to clarify, this pastor sounds like an idiot, and I would seriously judge anyone who went to listen to him speak.
    My concern is, that determining what equates to inspiring hate is not binary.
    I fear that one banning leads to another, and then another.
    If this guy becomes the precedence for who should be banned, and then next year, someone who is 99% as hateful tries to come to Ireland, and he gets banned, then he becomes the precedence, and so on, and so on. Eventually we get to the situation, where someone who doesn't like your football team gets banned, as he speaks badly of their fans.


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    #48
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Just to clarify, this pastor sounds like an idiot, and I would seriously judge anyone who went to listen to him speak.
    My concern is, that determining what equates to inspiring hate is not binary.
    I fear that one banning leads to another, and then another.
    If this guy becomes the precedence for who should be banned, and then next year, someone who is 99% as hateful tries to come to Ireland, and he gets banned, then he becomes the precedence, and so on, and so on. Eventually we get to the situation, where someone who doesn't like your football team gets banned, as he speaks badly of their fans.

    We’ve had one person banned in 20 years, I don’t think there is any danger of ministers going off banning supporters of Real Madrid on a whim.


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    #49
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,902 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've no interest in hearing what this Pastor has to say, but I fear that banning people from entering the country, because we they inspire hate is wrong.

    As previous posters have mentioned, banning him wont make much difference to people who believe in what he has to say. There is an internet out there, where I'm sure you can find all of his videos/speeches/etc.
    We should probably ban the internet, so that his speeches can't be accessed

    What we really should be focusing on, is why people listen to him, and follow his ideas. Lets figure that out, and see if we can help the people who might be filled with hate. Banning the pastor wont change these peoples thoughts, and has just brought further attention to him.
    I have never heard of this man before, and now I have.

    Why is incitement to hatred ok? Why do you think its ok to actually call for lgbt people to be murdered because they are lgbt?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #50
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Why is incitement to hatred ok? Why do you think its ok to actually call for lgbt people to be murdered because they are lgbt?

    Ah In fairness he wasn’t making that point at all.


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    salmocab and joeytheparrot I think this deserves a good debate. Something I dont have the time for at the moment.
    I hope you dont think I'm defending this pastor, or what he believes in. That's not the case at all.

    My fear is we go down a slippery slope of banning more and more people because they upset the majority, and we go down the route of over policing.

    If I have time this evening, I will return, and hopefully join in the debate again


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    #52
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,902 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    salmocab wrote: »
    Ah In fairness he wasn’t making that point at all.

    That was my reading of this

    I fear that banning people from entering the country, because we they inspire hate is wrong.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #53
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    salmocab and joeytheparrot I think this deserves a good debate. Something I dont have the time for at the moment.
    I hope you dont think I'm defending this pastor, or what he believes in. That's not the case at all.

    My fear is we go down a slippery slope of banning more and more people because they upset the majority, and we go down the route of over policing.

    If I have time this evening, I will return, and hopefully join in the debate again

    I see your argument and I understand what your saying I just don’t think that this is the thin edge of any wedge. There will be more bans in the future of course but I don’t think we live in a society that would put up with closing down or not admitting people without very good cause.


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    #54
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    That was my reading of this

    The ‘we’ was clearly an auto correct or typing mistake


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    #55
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,902 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    salmocab wrote: »
    The ‘we’ was clearly an auto correct or typing mistake

    I think there is a misunderstanding here. Take the "we" completely out of the sentence. I felt that there was argument there thats its completely ok to incite hatred against lgbt people and that we should have an extreme form of free speech where calls for murder and slaughter of lgbt people because they are lgbt are perfectly fine just because they are "free speech"

    Theres a human rights balance here.

    There is the right to freedom of expression as a human right but there is also human rights of lgbt people to be free from from discrimination, persecution and to be safe.

    People who make the extreme free speech argument often say they dont support the hate speech being broadcast etc but they are ok with it because it is free speech. In a sense though being ok with it is supporting its broadcast and is allowing the human rights of lgbt people (to be free from persecution and discrimination and to be safe) to be breached.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #56
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I think there is a misunderstanding here. Take the "we" completely out of the sentence. I felt that there was argument there thats its completely ok to incite hatred against lgbt people and that we should have an extreme form of free speech where calls for murder and slaughter of lgbt people because they are lgbt are perfectly fine just because they are "free speech"

    Theres a human rights balance here.

    There is the right to freedom of expression as a human right but there is also human rights of lgbt people to be free from from discrimination, persecution and to be safe.

    People who make the extreme free speech argument often say they dont support the hate speech being broadcast etc but they are ok with it because it is free speech. In a sense though being ok with it is supporting its broadcast and is allowing the human rights of lgbt people (to be free from persecution and discrimination and to be safe) to be breached.

    I’m only arguing bazwarf didn’t say it, which I don’t think he did or even suggested he believes it. He was making a point about banning people from the country based on their beliefs is a bad idea, I disagree with him but I see the argument he’s making.
    I think your overreaching here suggesting what he’s okay with.


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    #57
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    This isnt about mere offence. This is about someone who is more or less calling for us all to be slaughtered becsuse of our sexual orientation or gender identity. There is a reason over 30 European countries have banned him.

    And yet we are welcoming back into those countries Islamic extremists who wanted everyone dead.

    A bit of a contradiction!


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    #58
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,902 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Maxton Hot Grimace wrote: »
    And yet we are welcoming back into those countries Islamic extremists who wanted everyone dead.

    A bit of a contradiction!

    Everyone?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #59
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,653 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Joeytheparrot wrote:
    Everyone?
    Pickety pick, pick, pick.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote:
    People who make the extreme free speech argument often say they dont support the hate speech being broadcast etc but they are ok with it because it is free speech. In a sense though being ok with it is supporting its broadcast and is allowing the human rights of lgbt people (to be free from persecution and discrimination and to be safe) to be breached.

    No it's not. As a lot of people said, this is literally causing the Streisand effect. If no credence was given to this preacher, a handful of bigots would have been in attendance. Now anyone who had bigoted tendencies are aware of him. He will claim that the evil gays have tried to ban his speech and the only way to win is to fight back.

    I'd prefer to be able to see people's bigoted nature rather than for the to suppress their hatred and let it simmer under the surface. At least you know who you are dealing with then.


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    #61
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    No it's not. As a lot of people said, this is literally causing the Streisand effect. If no credence was given to this preacher, a handful of bigots would have been in attendance. Now anyone who had bigoted tendencies are aware of him. He will claim that the evil gays have tried to ban his speech and the only way to win is to fight back.

    I'd prefer to be able to see people's bigoted nature rather than for the to suppress their hatred and let it simmer under the surface. At least you know who you are dealing with then.

    He would have been all over the papers once he was here spouting his crap, we’ve just heard about him a bit earlier. This way we don’t have to see him all over the papers along with the inevitable protests whilst he’s here.


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