Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

Markcheese · 11-06-2019 11:58am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Many reasons different people building, ground subsidence etc. Those who travel on Luas will notice the difference as well.

They work within certain limits as all rolling stock will be slightly different.

But they're building to a design spec.overseen by engineers .. I doubt theres that much subsidence (or the whole station'd collapse)

Edit... Midleton station (that I was giving out about) is an old station, refurbed when the line was reopened...i assume there'd have been issues on dropping the track level. And if the platform got raised it would have been higher that the station buildings...
It does seem a bit bonkers to have a modern standard, wheelchair access station, (with lifts Ect..) and an Unusually high step up to the train...

bk · 11-06-2019 12:34pm

loyatemu wrote: »

as mentioned in previous posts, Irish Rails network is very non-standardised. The trains are all different lengths, have slightly different door-heights, stop in different places on the platform, many of the platforms are curved which results in large gaps at the doors etc.

It really shouldn't take an IR driver much effort to line up with a ramp at each station like in Lisbon. Just put the ramp location at the end of the platform where the longest train stops and have all drivers line up with that.

It would also be good for able bodied passengers as it gives more certainty as to where they can board, a complaint many have with random stopping places of current trains.

L1011 · 11-06-2019 12:37pm

Platform ramp still won't meet the train on a curved platform though

bk · 11-06-2019 12:58pm

L1011 wrote: »

Platform ramp still won't meet the train on a curved platform though

Platform ramp with it's own automatic extending platform or vice versa.

Drivers just doing it themselves like the video I showed above is probably easiest.

Stephen15 · 11-06-2019 1:08pm

Having the drivers put out a ramp would require a union agreement which is something easier said than done if you look at how long it took to implement 10 minute Darts.

L1011 · 11-06-2019 1:09pm

The drivers are the ones who put out a ramp at unmanned stations already - 29000 and 22000 carry a ramp at least, rarely get other types to see those.

Stephen15 · 11-06-2019 1:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

The drivers are the ones who put out a ramp at unmanned stations already - 29000 and 22000 carry a ramp at least, rarely get other types to see those.

Yeah but they would be notified in advance it would a bit different for them if it was a turn up and go service. Also afaik DART drivers are under different agreements with IE than loco/diesel drivers and from what I gather more militant than other grades.

Jamie2k9 · 11-06-2019 1:29pm

Drivers reluctantly do it like everything! Don't get me wrong there are some great ones but forcing it on them would require a few days strike and maybe a pay rise.

I don't really think they should have to do it all the time but should as required like today even with little or no notice.

loyatemu · 11-06-2019 2:53pm

bk wrote: »

It really shouldn't take an IR driver much effort to line up with a ramp at each station like in Lisbon. Just put the ramp location at the end of the platform where the longest train stops and have all drivers line up with that.

It would also be good for able bodied passengers as it gives more certainty as to where they can board, a complaint many have with random stopping places of current trains.

platforms at Pearse can take a 10-car train, having 2 or 3-car sets pulling right to the end at the opposite end to the station entrance is not progress. IE have put signs in most of the Dart station to show drivers of short trains where to stop so they're in the middle of the platform (driver adherence to these signs is patchy though).

prinzeugen · 12-06-2019 1:54am

bk wrote: »

It really shouldn't take an IR driver much effort to line up with a ramp at each station like in Lisbon. Just put the ramp location at the end of the platform where the longest train stops and have all drivers line up with that.

It would also be good for able bodied passengers as it gives more certainty as to where they can board, a complaint many have with random stopping places of current trains.

A train might be made up of several units with only one "accessible" coach on each unit. They will never be in the same place.

The driver could line up that door for the ramp but they might have to be a coach length past the end of the platform. Trains have stop boards anyway for DOO.

Look at the end of a platform and you will see "8 car stop" etc. They must stop there to see the mirrors/platform so they know its safe to close the doors and move. There are starting signals etc also.

bk · 12-06-2019 8:10pm

Easy solution, multiple ramps, one at the front of each stopping location for different length of train and an indicator on the arrivals board of which platform to use for each approaching train.

Not perfect, but better then 4 hours.

Of course these suggestions are all just if you want to avoid the "easier" approach of having drivers do it.

devnull · 17-06-2019 11:20pm

The NTA by the end of the quarter are now scheduled to complete a full fleet assessment in order to develop a fleet strategy going forward in addition to the tender for future units.

Latest timeframes on the tender is that they expect to award the framework contract for the bi-mode and electric fleet by mid 2020 with the first deliveries to take place by the end of 2023.

Rrailway orders for the lines to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogehda will be put in by the end of 2021 with electrification work scheduled to begin in January 2023 and completed by the end of 2027.

Jamie2k9 · 17-06-2019 11:38pm

devnull wrote: »

The NTA by the end of the quarter are now scheduled to complete a full fleet assessment in order to develop a fleet strategy going forward in addition to the tender for future units.

Latest timeframes on the tender is that they expect to award the framework contract for the bi-mode and electric fleet by mid 2020 with the first deliveries to take place by the end of 2023.

Rrailway orders for the lines to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogehda will be put in by the end of 2021 with electrification work scheduled to begin in January 2023 and completed by the end of 2027.

So electrification delayed again...

Qrt · 18-06-2019 12:14am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So electrification delayed again...

The DART Expansion Programme has always been scheduled for completion in 2027, no? Unless I'm mistaken, I assume electrification is the last piece in the puzzle provided you have the rolling stock?

L1011 · 18-06-2019 1:09pm

Railway orders in 2019, delivery for 2023 or so was suggested at one point not that long ago.

Jamie2k9 · 18-06-2019 7:06pm

I guess we know why they are wasting a ton of money on batteries for new trains. 15 year lifespan, so lots of time to put it on the long finger again :rolleyes:

XPS_Zero · 18-06-2019 8:09pm

Can someone explain why it's going to take EIGHT YEARS to put some power lines up???

IE 222 · 19-06-2019 1:07pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Can someone explain why it's going to take EIGHT YEARS to put some power lines up???

Works will take 5 years to complete fully. I'd expect it will open in phases meaning 1 route (Drogheada - Malahide been the easiest) could potentially open in 2024/25 sometime instead of working on small pockets all over the place to open all at the same time.

IE 222 · 19-06-2019 1:19pm

In regards of wheelchairs, surely a ramp can be engineered easily enough into a unit that can slide out from under the units floor onto the platform in this day age. A simple painted box on the platform for users to know were to wait will suffice. The ramp just needs to extend far enough to account for gaps caused by curves. Raise the floor slightly to allow the ramp to clear all platforms or lower the platform height in the wheelchair loading area at stations where issues will arise.

XPS_Zero · 19-06-2019 10:29pm

IE 222 wrote: »

In regards of wheelchairs, surely a ramp can be engineered easily enough into a unit that can slide out from under the units floor onto the platform in this day age. A simple painted box on the platform for users to know were to wait will suffice. The ramp just needs to extend far enough to account for gaps caused by curves. Raise the floor slightly to allow the ramp to clear all platforms or lower the platform height in the wheelchair loading area at stations where issues will arise.

iT'S already been explained why it can't on here a few times, I used to think the same as you re: ramps. However when you account for different curves in the platform different train types and the fact that some people need physical help to mount the ramp it can't be done

L1011 · 19-06-2019 10:36pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Works will take 5 years to complete fully. I'd expect it will open in phases meaning 1 route (Drogheada - Malahide been the easiest) could potentially open in 2024/25 sometime instead of working on small pockets all over the place to open all at the same time.

Maynooth is meant to start first and I'd doubt they'd have another finished before it

IE 222 · 20-06-2019 12:28am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

iT'S already been explained why it can't on here a few times, I used to think the same as you re: ramps. However when you account for different curves in the platform different train types and the fact that some people need physical help to mount the ramp it can't be done

It can be done as has been done elsewhere.

I can't see why different trains types can prevent it from happening. It's a simple case of phasing them in with new stock orders. The vast majority of Dublin commuter stock will be the same type once the new fleet arrives. Elsewhere the current system can continue which will be mainly intercity services and far easier to manage.

In terms of curves, once the ramp is wide and long enough it will reach, it's not as if platform gaps are 6ft wide. Having wheelchair accessible doors located behind the cabs will also narrow the gap size compared with gaps found at central doors. Raise the floor slightly to allow a ramp retract in and out or install a folding ramp. Platforms could be dipped in the loading area were required to allow a ramp operate also. It doesn't need major infrastructural changes to make it work but rather just some good planning.

Fair enough some still may need assistance but that shouldn't act as a deterrent and rule it out. I'm sure with a bit of thought out planning a solution can be found.

IE 222 · 20-06-2019 12:46am

L1011 wrote: »

Maynooth is meant to start first and I'd doubt they'd have another finished before it

Why Maynooth?? I would of thought doing the Northern line first would be simpler and offer an earlier commencement date.

DoctorPan · 20-06-2019 10:44am

IE 222 wrote: »

Why Maynooth?? I would of thought doing the Northern line first would be simpler and offer an earlier commencement date.

Contains the new depot which is to replace Fairview as it's hopeless undersized and underequiped for a modern depot.

Jamie2k9 · 20-06-2019 10:49am

DoctorPan wrote: »

Contains the new depot which is to replace Fairview as it's hopeless undersized and underequiped for a modern depot.

Just wait for the major row that will cause.

DoctorPan · 20-06-2019 12:32pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Just wait for the major row that will cause.

Oh I can't wait for it, considering the wish-list of stuff that Irish Rail is looking for from this new depot...

Jamie2k9 · 20-06-2019 7:00pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Oh I can't wait for it, considering the wish-list of stuff that Irish Rail is looking for from this new depot...

Such as?

For what it's worth I suspect Fairview will be around for 10 years if not longer.

prinzeugen · 20-06-2019 10:35pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

iT'S already been explained why it can't on here a few times, I used to think the same as you re: ramps. However when you account for different curves in the platform different train types and the fact that some people need physical help to mount the ramp it can't be done

The new Stadler units for Greater Anglia have an automatic ramp that comes out from under every door to within a few cm of the platform edge. You get a brief view of them in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxz3fPKt2SU

I don't know how they would cope with somewhere like the northbound platform at Tara St though!

GM228 · 20-06-2019 10:47pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

The new Stadler units for Greater Anglia have an automatic ramp that comes out from under every door to within a few cm of the platform edge. You get a brief view of them in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxz3fPKt2SU

I don't know how they would cope with somewhere like the northbound platform at Tara St though!

Those are retractable foot boards due to the streamlined body profiles, they still require traditional ramps for wheelchair users.

prinzeugen · 21-06-2019 1:01am

GM228 wrote: »

Those are retractable foot boards due to the streamlined body profiles, they still require traditional ramps for wheelchair users.

According to Stadler and Greater Anglia they dont. They can go out 40cm I believe. That is why the are called "low floor" trains.

Manual ramps may be required at some of the more rural request stops in Norfolk until they get the platforms raised.

The ramps use a mix of sensors and GPS to extend them at each station.

IE 222 · 21-06-2019 1:46pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

The new Stadler units for Greater Anglia have an automatic ramp that comes out from under every door to within a few cm of the platform edge. You get a brief view of them in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxz3fPKt2SU

I don't know how they would cope with somewhere like the northbound platform at Tara St though!

Could they not just dip part of the platform and allow it to rest onto the the platform. IE could tender for floors to be slightly higher to avoid the need of altering platforms.

IE 222 · 21-06-2019 1:55pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Contains the new depot which is to replace Fairview as it's hopeless undersized and underequiped for a modern depot.

Sounds like this could potentially delay the whole project for years.

Could they not upgrade and expand Drogheda for bi mode maintenance and use Fairview for storing 2900s and bi mode. The excess 2900s can either transfer to Inchicore or head south for Cork or Limerick regional services.

L1011 · 21-06-2019 4:57pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Could they not just dip part of the platform and allow it to rest onto the the platform. IE could tender for floors to be slightly higher to avoid the need of altering platforms.

There is no chance of going back to requiring a step up for everyone to remove the need to manually put a ramp in place for limited uses. They still won't allow wheelchairs on without a further ramp in most cases

DoctorPan · 21-06-2019 6:40pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Such as?

For what it's worth I suspect Fairview will be around for 10 years if not longer.

From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.

IE 222 wrote: »

Sounds like this could potentially delay the whole project for years.

Could they not upgrade and expand Drogheda for bi mode maintenance and use Fairview for storing 2900s and bi mode. The excess 2900s can either transfer to Inchicore or head south for Cork or Limerick regional services.

Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s

devnull · 21-06-2019 6:58pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like./QUOTE]

Certainly Austria are the kind of places that Irish Rail should be basing some of their decisions on as public transport in Vienna is excellent and a far better example to follow than the UK. OBB are a First Class operator with excellent rolling stock on both commuter and Intercity routes and excellent customer service and also work really well with rolling stock manufacturers!

IE 222 · 21-06-2019 6:59pm

L1011 wrote: »

There is no chance of going back to requiring a step up for everyone to remove the need to manually put a ramp in place for limited uses. They still won't allow wheelchairs on without a further ramp in most cases

When I say raise the floor i mean by centimetres as to clear the platform not a full on step. This is easily achievable if they put so thought into it. There various options available to do it.

IE 222 · 21-06-2019 7:07pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.

Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s

Yeah but I still think it quite possible and reasonably quick to get the Drogheda section up and running first without too much hassle. The fleet will be delivered in phases over a number of years so they won't necessarily need a massive depot to store trains in. 2900s for Maynooth can be stored in Fairview and maintained in Inchicore while Cork get a fleet upgrade with excess stock. A target of date of late 2024 should allow for electrification Northern line and delivery of first 100 - 150 new fleet.

end of the road · 21-06-2019 7:12pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.

Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s

that is a good idea. the 29s will be a huge increase in capacity and will allow for a good frequency increase to encourage growth of the service. they will equal future proofed capacity.
they should stick the 2600s in limerick instead of withdrawing them unless at that stage they are uneconomical to keep running. unless there is genuinely going to be enough ICRS to finally run waterford limerick and limerick-galway services.

GM228 · 22-06-2019 12:20am

IE 222 wrote: »

Why Maynooth?? I would of thought doing the Northern line first would be simpler and offer an earlier commencement date.

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah but I still think it quite possible and reasonably quick to get the Drogheda section up and running first without too much hassle.

Preliminary work on the Maynooth line is years ahead of the Drogheda line mainly because electrification all the way to Drogheda was only committed to as part of the current NDP, prior to that the only commitment was to Maynooth, the Drogheda project is actually only 3km less of electrification work anyway, but the Maynooth project will deliver an awful lot more as it includes M3 and Docklands, the Maynooth project is also the most critical of the three projects as it also deals with capacity issues in the City Centre (as well as linking the Hazelhatch electrification project to the PPT), it will see Connolly, Newcommen and Docklands re-developed, removal of Maynooth line level crossings and a new depot.

prinzeugen · 22-06-2019 12:44am

IE 222 wrote: »

Could they not just dip part of the platform and allow it to rest onto the the platform. IE could tender for floors to be slightly higher to avoid the need of altering platforms.

There should be no need. The ramps are designed to adapt to 97% of current or soon to be upgraded platforms.

IrishRail should look at these units. The InterCity versions are very nice! Better than the IEP.

The modular design means bits can be swapped around to suit power source etc. A train designed by people that run trains for once!

IE 222 · 22-06-2019 9:14am

GM228 wrote: »

Preliminary work on the Maynooth line is years ahead of the Drogheda line mainly because electrification all the way to Drogheda was only committed to as part of the current NDP, prior to that the only commitment was to Maynooth, the Drogheda project is actually only 3km less of electrification work anyway, but the Maynooth project will deliver an awful lot more as it includes M3 and Docklands, the Maynooth project is also the most critical of the three projects as it also deals with capacity issues in the City Centre (as well as linking the Hazelhatch electrification project to the PPT), it will see Connolly, Newcommen and Docklands re-developed, removal of Maynooth line level crossings and a new depot.

I'm not discrediting the importance and benefits of the Maynooth upgrades and the sooner it happens the better. I just think they could get Drogheda completed earlier and put to use while the longer and bigger project take place. This will remove capacity issues 2 or 3 years earlier than planned seen as the UK stock hire is off the cards now.

IE 222 · 22-06-2019 9:19am

prinzeugen wrote: »

There should be no need. The ramps are designed to adapt to 97% of current or soon to be upgraded platforms.

IrishRail should look at these units. The InterCity versions are very nice! Better than the IEP.

The modular design means bits can be swapped around to suit power source etc. A train designed by people that run trains for once!

Yeah they do look nice.

Seems these ramps are a very easy solution in my eyes.

devnull · 22-06-2019 9:46am

prinzeugen wrote: »

IrishRail should look at these units. The InterCity versions are very nice! Better than the IEP.

I wouldn't judge them just yet - They've cherry picked the photos that have been released so far which are not representative of the density of the seating from what I have read elsewhere, as well as taking diagonal photos of airline seats to give the impression of more room. The seats they have picked are for ultra high density layouts, with the idea that your knees go in a niche rather than having proper spacing. There is less space than an IEP.

People who have been on the finished ones during testing say the standard airline seat (not near a wheelchair space, wall etc) are tighter than they look in the photos that have been taken at angles to give an impression of more space than there actually is. There's also some dividers under the tables in the middle to restrict everyone to only half the room under the table each, that could work if there is enough spacing, but if you get two tall people.

That being said the Stadler Flirt is an excellent train and is doing very well in mainland Europe with many operators with better layouts than Greater Anglia have. I don't see it being used in Ireland though because the version that is being used for Greater Anglia is aimed at rural / local (755) and shorter distance intercity runs (745) so wouldn't be that great for standing as it's not kitted out for them.

Jamie2k9 · 22-06-2019 11:06am

DoctorPan wrote: »

From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.

Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s

Suspended as much.

prinzeugen · 24-06-2019 1:09am

devnull wrote: »

I wouldn't judge them just yet - They've cherry picked the photos that have been released so far which are not representative of the density of the seating from what I have read elsewhere, as well as taking diagonal photos of airline seats to give the impression of more room. The seats they have picked are for ultra high density layouts, with the idea that your knees go in a niche rather than having proper spacing. There is less space than an IEP.

People who have been on the finished ones during testing say the standard airline seat (not near a wheelchair space, wall etc) are tighter than they look in the photos that have been taken at angles to give an impression of more space than there actually is. There's also some dividers under the tables in the middle to restrict everyone to only half the room under the table each, that could work if there is enough spacing, but if you get two tall people.

That being said the Stadler Flirt is an excellent train and is doing very well in mainland Europe with many operators with better layouts than Greater Anglia have. I don't see it being used in Ireland though because the version that is being used for Greater Anglia is aimed at rural / local (755) and shorter distance intercity runs (745) so wouldn't be that great for standing as it's not kitted out for them.

There where many comments about the seats but once people were able to get inside one, all the comments seem positive.

There are 3 versions of them. The 3 or 4 car provincial sets, the 10 car electric only InterCity sets for London-Norwich and the 10 car high density units for the Stansted Express.

There are a load of videos from the exhibition in Berlin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNjNMoNnIQc

I have read many complaints about the seat supports on the IEP and maybe these. If you are travelling long distances, don't get a window seat because you can't stretch your legs out!

goingnowhere · 24-06-2019 8:10am

I've been on board the Stadler Flirt and it looks nice but isn't hugely practical

Multiple floor heights inside

Huge loss of internal space due large amount of equipment behind each cab

Its tight inside, it UK gauge and that just kills width

prinzeugen · 27-06-2019 12:24am

goingnowhere wrote: »

I've been on board the Stadler Flirt and it looks nice but isn't hugely practical

Multiple floor heights inside

Huge loss of internal space due large amount of equipment behind each cab

Its tight inside, it UK gauge and that just kills width

The layout of the Anglia Stadlers is unfortunately due to the high number of level crossing accidents in Norfolk. They are designed in so the sections can be swapped around.

A cross between the Anglia bi-modes and the 777 for MerseyRail might suit Ireland.

Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

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