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Did you know it was National Famine Commemoration Day today?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    "The British" I presume were the Westminster government of the day (mid 1800s), and it goes without saying that their handling of the crisis in the Ireland of that time leaves a lot to be desired to say the least, although as we know that famine was a complicated event in Irish history wherby nearly everything that could go wrong went wrong at the same time. Serious potato blight for several years in a row, massive outbreak of cholera, unscrupulous landlords, and a government removed from the reality of the disaster, all of which contributed to the million deaths. I would never blame "the British" though, as that would be totally misleading . . . .

    ....................


    http://www.pars.com/pictures/parsman173/shocked-dog.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    I think the problem is that there seems to be only two approaches to teaching about the famine (it was a famine, sorry lads). It was either the 800 year oppressing murdering British scumbags fault, or it was the stupid brehon law following ignorant overbreeding paddies' fault. The reality is both viewpoints are balls, and as with everything, it was a lot more complicated than that.

    I am going to disagree with your overbreeding paddies point as there was plenty of food around. But if you think of even today's Ireland. The people who would be exporting food would still export it as that's what capitalism is all about. The government may intervene but it wouldn't be at the expense of the money men. They would still export their product. I think the British just used the blight to its advantage and didn't bother too much with saving the Catholic Irish. It wasn't by design but they weren't too bothered about us once it started happening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Regarding the colony comment, Ireland has never been seen as a colony by Britain

    Bull.
    Shit.

    closely knit islands.

    Lol,
    at the time of the famine Ireland was much much closer to Britain than just some far flung colony.

    To Ireland's lethal detriment and Britain's benefit.

    To Ireland, I. Our separated fortune shall keep us both the safer. Where we are,
    there’s daggers in men’s smiles. The near in blood, the nearer bloody.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    I stand over my posts , the truth (complex though it is) is ....

    Something you clearly haven't a clue about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    LordSutch wrote: »
    at the time of the famine Ireland was much much closer to Britain than just some far flung colony.

    Ah yes, the good old days. And the Irish slave colony set up in Montserrat by our dear old friends during the 1700s. Was obviously a packaged sun holiday that went terribly wrong.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    LordSutch wrote: »
    "The British" I presume were the Westminster government of the day (mid 1800s), and it goes without saying that their handling of the crisis in the Ireland of that time leaves a lot to be desired to say the least, although as we know that famine was a complicated event in Irish history wherby nearly everything that could go wrong went wrong at the same time. Serious potato blight for several years in a row, massive outbreak of cholera, unscrupulous landlords, and a government removed from the reality of the disaster, all of which contributed to the million deaths. I would never blame "the British" though, as that would be totally misleading . . . .

    Regarding the colony comment, Ireland has never been seen as a colony by Britain, primarily because of Irelands proximity to Britain, and also because of the deep ties that have run deep for thousands of years between the two closely knit islands. Nowadays we like to see ourselves as an ex colony of the British empire, but at the time of the famine Ireland was much much closer to Britain than just some far flung colony.

    Ireland was definitely a colony. I mean it was run from London and planted with colonialists ( north and South) who took all the land while the local population had - for most if it's history - no political rights

    When did distance matter? France is close to Algeria.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    Definition of Famine - extreme and general scarcity of food.What happened here was not a famine and it is shameful of our government to still accept that term.
    It suits the British government to label it that.

    Take a look here as to what was exported at the time.

    http://www.div8aoh.com/FamineFacts.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    I really have no interest in blaming the British establishment because it wasn't as simple as that (not that I agree with the bizarre claim from that person who said "The Irish were just as to blame" :confused:) however the dismissal of such a terrible episode, e.g. the below imbecilic comment:
    GrayFox208 wrote: »
    Nope.. Don't really care neither... A few spuds went bad people died.. There's a bag of potatoes here that's gone bad, someone's died today, what's the difference?
    What's that about? Does it make some Irish people feel sorta... sophisticated for eschewing anything that might (oh the horror! :eek:) betray a vague hint of having an affinity for their Irishness? I don't mean lack of interest, which is fair enough - I'm referring to the unnecessary sneering.
    Horrible and generalised statements are openly allowed once they involve Irish people or Irish history/heritage... but it's insta-bans for those that say a particular woman isn't fit for a particular role.
    Well said.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 91 ✭✭que pasa


    Definition of Famine - extreme and general scarcity of food.What happened here was not a famine and it is shameful of our government to still accept that term.
    It suits the British government to label it that.

    Take a look here as to what was exported at the time.

    http://www.div8aoh.com/FamineFacts.html

    I agree. Ireland should take the same approach as Germany does with Holocaust deniers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    I always think of Eavan Boland's poem from the Leaving Cert w/ regards to the famine and Trevelyan.
    …this Tuesday I saw bones
    out of my carriage window
    …we march the corn
    to the ships in peace;
    It has gone better than we expected, Lord
    Trevelyan, sedition, idleness, cured
    in one; from parish to parish, field to field,
    the wretches work till they are quite worn,
    then fester by their work;


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭SparkySpitfire


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I always think of Eavan Boland's poem from the Leaving Cert w/ regards to the famine and Trevelyan.

    I absolutely love that poem.
    The Relief Committee deliberated: “Might it be safe,
    Colonel, to give them roads, roads to force
    From nowhere, going nowhere of course?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 587 ✭✭✭sillyoulfool


    que pasa wrote: »
    I agree. Ireland should take the same approach as Germany does with Holocaust deniers.

    Nobody is denying there was a famine.
    Nobody is denying the UK Governments response was shamefully inadequate.
    What some of us are denying is the simplistic claim that it was a genocide which was all the fault of the then UK Government.
    Many of the landowners, and their agents were Irish, many of those who profited from both exporting foodstuffs and indeed importing foodstuffs were Irish.
    There is a big difference between a holocaust denier and somebody who refuses the childishly simplistic claims of genocide with regard to the famine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Nobody is denying there was a famine.
    Nobody is denying the UK Governments response was shamefully inadequate.
    What some of us are denying is the simplistic claim that it was a genocide which was all the fault of the then UK Government.
    Many of the landowners, and their agents were Irish, many of those who profited from both exporting foodstuffs and indeed importing foodstuffs were Irish.
    There is a big difference between a holocaust denier and somebody who refuses the childishly simplistic claims of genocide with regard to the famine.
    Can you point to a single famine in history that was not political?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭willfarmerman


    Can you point to a single famine in history that was not political?

    If it it were English peasant poor in similar circumstances I'm not sure it would of been handled much differently. They were tough times to be poor in any part of Europe. We have had enough simplistic anti British sentiment in the country over the years. Yes this terrible event in history needs to be commemorated but you cannot extract apologies from dead men. Those English lords and politicians are long since passed. And just a small observation. In my own parish the local Catholic Church, which is easily 3 times the size of the local church of ireland, was built in 1848.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    The famine victims didn't perish for lack of food, oh and the starvation was met with quite a bit of quasi-genocidal, racist, glee by those who had the power to ameliorate it.

    You should read this.

    http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Famine#PoliticalEconomymarketeconomicsandtheFamine

    Victim blaming would be blaming the starving people for their own plight. Not all Irish people were starving, in fact many looked to exploit the situation for their own ends.

    Blaming the British government and calling it genocide excuses the actions of those that helped increase the effects of the famine for the sake of profit. the British government should have acted and should be rightly blamed for that, but they weren't the ones stock piling imports, or exporting food. That was contrary to the (failed) policy of free trade.

    But, of course, you knew tbat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    Nobody is denying there was a famine.
    Nobody is denying the UK Governments response was shamefully inadequate.
    What some of us are denying is the simplistic claim that it was a genocide which was all the fault of the then UK Government.
    Many of the landowners, and their agents were Irish, many of those who profited from both exporting foodstuffs and indeed importing foodstuffs were Irish.
    There is a big difference between a holocaust denier and somebody who refuses the childishly simplistic claims of genocide with regard to the famine.

    Jesus,you are not giving up are ya.This is pure and utter crap.As I said above,a famine is 'extreme and general scarcity of food.This was not the case in Ireland at the time.Food was plentiful and was being taken to the ports under armed guard.What does that tell you.What did happen was the failure of one crop.This does not equate to a 'Famine'.

    You seem to be a denier of the hard facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    bumper234 wrote: »
    The deliberate murder of people with the intent of wiping out an entire race is slightly different to people starving over a potato blight.

    I'm not sure what % actually died from a lack of potatoes due to the potato blight, but I remember hearing something regarding the massive cholera outbreak which accounted for a very large proportion of those one million deaths.

    Maybe some learned historian can shed light on how many died from the cholera epidemic (which coincided with the potato famine).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'm not sure what % actually died from a lack of potatoes due to the potato blight, but I remember hearing something regarding the massive cholera outbreak which accounted for a very large proportion of those one million deaths.

    Maybe some learned historian can shed light on how many died from the cholera epidemic (which coincided with the potato famine).

    I'm not sure they kept those figures, if you died no one was too worried how or why.

    Cholera runs rampant through starving people, especially when they are crammed in to places like work houses, so even though there would have been cholera without the famine, it was able to run riot because of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 637 ✭✭✭ruthloss


    Great Irish Famine" redirects here. For the 1740–1741 famine, see Irish Famine (1740–1741).
    20px-Padlock-silver.svg.png
    Great Famine
    an Gorta Mór225px-Skibbereen_by_James_Mahony%2C_1847.JPGSkibbereen 1847 by Cork artist James Mahony (1810–1879), commissioned by Illustrated London News, 1847CountryUnited Kingdom of Great Britain and IrelandLocationIrelandPeriod1845–1852Total deaths1 millionObservationsPolicy failure, potato blight, Corn Laws, British Anti-PoperyReliefsee belowImpact on demographicsPopulation fell by 20–25% due to mortality and emigrationConsequencesPermanent change in the country's demographic, political and cultural landscapeWebsiteList of memorials to the Great FaminePreceded byIrish Famine (1740–1741)Succeeded byIrish Famine, 1879 (An Gorta Beag)In Ireland, the Great Famine (Irish: an Gorta Mór) was a period of mass starvation, disease and emigration between 1845 and 1852./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]1[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc It is sometimes referred to, mostly outside Ireland, as the Irish Potato Famine because one-third of the population was then solely reliant on this cheap crop for a number of historical reasons./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]2[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]3[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]4[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc During the famine approximately 1 million people died and a million more emigrated from Ireland,/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]5[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc causing the island's population to fall by between 20% and 25%./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]6[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc The proximate cause of famine was a potato disease commonly known as potato blight./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]7[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc
    Although the potato crop failed, the country was still producing and exporting more than enough grain crops to feed the population. Records show during the period Ireland was exporting approximately thirty to fifty shiploads per day of food produce. As a consequence of these exports and a number of other factors such as land acquisition, absentee landlords and the effect of the 1690 penal laws, the Great Famine today is viewed by a number of historical academics as a form of either direct or indirect genocide./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]8[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc


  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    the population of england and wales was approx. 16 million in 1841,the population of ireland was 8.1 million approx.and the pop. of scotland was approx 2.6 million.do you think the government in london would have done more if the same ratio of people were dying in england and wales,ie-2million people???it was the united kingdom of great britain and ireland after all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    SF laments day to mark fallen Irish in wars, but not famine dead
    Peadar Tóibín says biggest event to befall people of Ireland should be commemorated
    Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 21:19 Updated: Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 21:20
    Marie O'Halloran

    The Government has been criticised for failing to have a fixed date each year to commemorate the Great Famine when there is one in place to remember Irish people who died in past wars.
    Sinn Féin arts spokesman Peadar Tóibín said the annual uncertainty over the commemoration date of the Great Famine was shocking “given it is the biggest event to befall the people of this country”.
    The Meath West TD was speaking as he introduced the Famine Memorial Day Bill, which would allow for a set date each year on which to commemorate the 1845-1848 famine.
    Mr Tóibín said there had been a commemoration each year since 2008 but with no fixed date. He said the second Sunday of May as the date to “ensure that the date does not swing, as it currently does, from May to September each year”.

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    And he said it was not yet known when the 2017 famine commemoration would take place.
    He said “we have a national day of commemoration in remembrance of the Irish people who died in past wards, which falls on the Sunday nearest to 11th July.
    “It is surprising therefore that we do not have a fixed date for the commemoration to honour the victims of the Great Irish Famine and its survivors.”
    Human cost
    Mr Tóibín said a fixed memorial day was needed to remember the human cost and consequences of neglect, the effects when an economic imperative was prioritised and to recognise the dark shadows of colonial might.
    “Most of all a fixed day of remembrance would honour those victims and survivors of the Great Famine and allow us to remember what our ancestors lived through.”
    He described the Great Hunger as an Irish tragedy with global significance. Mr Tóibín referred to a plaque in the Mansion House in Dublin honouring the native American Choctaw tribe who contributed to famine victims.
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    He quoted from the plaque: “Their humanity calls us to remember the millions of human beings throughout our world today who die of hunger and hunger-related illness in a world of plenty.”
    Mr Tóibín said there were 800 million such people around the world today. “Let’s fix this day of national commemoration in order that we can remember those who suffer today as those in this country did once.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    In fairness lads, jokes about human suffering are the lowest form of wit, no matter how long ago it happened.

    Even Dead baby jokes ?


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