Would you agree to 80% income tax if everything was free?

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:10am #1

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

salmocab · 16-10-2019 10:13am

20% to pay to run a car go on holiday buy food and have a social life? Who’s paying for gym membership, kids gymnastics and to get my house painted? I think you may have massively underestimated what everything else costs

Cordell · 16-10-2019 10:13am

It doesn't matter if you agree or not, this is not sustainable and any system like that will collapse sooner or later, as did all communist systems with no exception.

BrokenArrows · 16-10-2019 10:13am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

Eh no.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:15am

Cordell wrote: »

It doesn't matter if you agree or not, this is not sustainable and any system like that will collapse sooner or later, as did all communist systems with no exception.

All communist systems to date weren’t true communist systems, they were corrupt and broken systems so you can’t point to them and say it doesn’t work

Dravokivich · 16-10-2019 10:16am

So on a salary of 32k, 25600 would be tax and 6400 after for me to work with?

Eh, that's not going to work out too well. You'll push out any prospective workers. Which happened with USC. You also won't encourage workers to come from abroad, so our skillsets and experience will narrow down.

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

All communist systems to date weren’t true communist systems, they were corrupt and broken systems so you can’t point to them and say it doesn’t work

The purity doesn't matter.

H3llR4iser · 16-10-2019 10:16am

Well, that scenario is not one where "everything is free". As somebody who works, doesn't live in state-gifted accommodation, doesn't own property, doesn't have children, for now doesn't need regular and expensive health care, only uses the DART twice a day do go and come from work (about 100 euro / month)...what you're making "free" for me would be 700 Euro/year of motor tax and 1200 Euro/year of Irish Rail tickets. Ah yeah, and the TV license, whoo hoooo!

I'm already very much a net contributor to the revenue as we speak, and I've been for the last 10+ years.

bear1 · 16-10-2019 10:17am

How do you foresee the economic and social implications of such an idea?
I assume you're aware of these factors.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:17am

salmocab wrote: »

20% to pay to run a car go on holiday buy food and have a social life? Who’s paying for gym membership, kids gymnastics and to get my house painted? I think you may have massively underestimated what everything else costs

If you counted all the indirect taxes and charges you pay in a year as a % of your tax home pay you might be surprised

bear1 · 16-10-2019 10:18am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

If you counted all the indirect taxes and charges you pay in a year as a % of your tax home pay you might be surprised

So minimum wage would also be scrapped?
Someone on 2k a month would be left with 200e to survive.
Do you see a flaw here?

16-10-2019 10:19am

If all is free, why would I work?

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:20am

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Well, that scenario is not one where "everything is free". As somebody who works, doesn't live in state-gifted accommodation, doesn't own property, doesn't have children, for now doesn't need regular and expensive health care, only uses the DART twice a day do go and come from work (about 100 euro / month)...what you're making "free" for me would be 700 Euro/year of motor tax and 1200 Euro/year of Irish Rail tickets. Ah yeah, and the TV license, whoo hoooo!

Your forgetting we only pay such high rent and high mortgage rates and high cost of living because people have that disposable income available. If it was significantly reduced tomorrow what do you think would happen to the cost of living in Ireland? Do you think it would go up or down? Look at what the rest of Europe pays for housing and living costs compared to us!

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:21am

bear1 wrote: »

So minimum wage would also be scrapped?
Someone on 2k a month would be left with 200e to survive.
Do you see a flaw here?

No it would be 400e

Cordell · 16-10-2019 10:23am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

All communist systems to date weren’t true communist systems, they were corrupt and broken systems so you can’t point to them and say it doesn’t work

Decent attempt, I'll give you that

Mortelaro · 16-10-2019 10:24am

is_that_so · 16-10-2019 10:24am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

If I'm on the current minimum wage that leave me about €77 a week to survive.

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2019 10:27am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

All communist systems to date weren’t true communist systems, they were corrupt and broken systems so you can’t point to them and say it doesn’t work

Of course you can. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Communism ultimately requires some sort of omnipotent authority to administer the division and allocation of resources and services and this authority will end up rotting to the core.

Dravokivich · 16-10-2019 10:27am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Your forgetting we only pay such high rent and high mortgage rates and high cost of living because people have that disposable income available. If it was significantly reduced tomorrow what do you think would happen to the cost of living in Ireland? Do you think it would go up or down? Look at what the rest of Europe pays for housing and living costs compared to us!

The high costs for rent and purchasing are because its a very small market compared to the demand. That guy in Cork over the weekend had to live in a tent within a few months of coming back to Ireland because he couldn't afford accommodation. We have councils all over the country paying hotels, for people to reside in, because they can't afford to rent.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:28am

is_that_so wrote: »

If I'm on the current minimum wage that leave me about €77 a week to survive.

With all the money the government would have at their disposal there would be extensive social housing built which would provide very low cost housing to those who need it and push down the cost of housing for everyone else due to better overall supply in the market

Dravokivich · 16-10-2019 10:29am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

With all the money the government would have at their disposal there would be extensive social housing developments which would provide very low cost housing to those who need it and push down the cost of housing for everyone else due to better overall supply in the market

The Governments tax bucket has a large hole in it already, dear liza, dear liza.

zanador · 16-10-2019 10:29am

In countries with strong social systems and high taxation (think scandinavian) the disparity between the wages of high earners and low earners isn't as great as it is here afaik.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:30am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course you can. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Communism ultimately requires some sort of omnipotent authority to administer the division and allocation of resources and services and this authority will end up rotting to the core.

As opposed to our current system which is working a treat, all of our politicians are good honest lads just out to make the world a better place

salmocab · 16-10-2019 10:31am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

If you counted all the indirect taxes and charges you pay in a year as a % of your tax home pay you might be surprised

I wouldn’t be at all surprised it’s massive and they still can’t give all the things you want them to. You’ve picked random figures given this no real thought and started a thread.

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2019 10:31am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

As opposed to our current system which is working a treat, all of our politicians are good honest lads just out to make the world a better place

Beats the hell out of censorship & gulags.

sbsquarepants · 16-10-2019 10:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

If all is free, why would I work?

You wouldn't - and that in a nutshell is why it's a ridiculous idea.

Fr_Dougal · 16-10-2019 10:32am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

With all the money the government would have at their disposal there would be extensive social housing built which would provide very low cost housing to those who need it and push down the cost of housing for everyone else due to better overall supply in the market

Lol

quokula · 16-10-2019 10:33am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course you can. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Communism ultimately requires some sort of omnipotent authority to administer the division and allocation of resources and services and this authority will end up rotting to the core.

So what we need is AI-powered communism.

ted1 · 16-10-2019 10:33am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Healthcare , already free. But pay 2,500 for private healthcare for the family
Education , already free
Transport, should be free. Tax saver card currently costs 1500 , but I y me so don’t need one
Childcare, my wife minds them for free.
Motor tax , private cars should be discouraged so don’t agree
Tv licence. 160 a year
Bins, 300 a year.

So you are asking would I Continue to pay 3,960 or 80% tax. I think I’ll stick to the way it is

jaxxx · 16-10-2019 10:34am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

No it would be 400e

Which would barely cover rent for the most basic of dwellings. How you gonna feed yourself? How could you ever save up for a mortgage? How are you gonna enjoy life's little luxuries like going to the cinema, going out for a drink, spending time on your hobbies? Yeah brilliant idea for those on low wage incomes. Ingenious.. .. ..

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:35am

salmocab wrote: »

I wouldn’t be at all surprised it’s massive and they still can’t give all the things you want them to. You’ve picked random figures given this no real thought and started a thread.

Of course I plucked the 80 % figure out of the sky, that doesn’t matter, the point of this thread is, would you pay a significantly larger amount of taxes for a significantly better run country with more social protections etc

10fathoms · 16-10-2019 10:35am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

All communist systems to date weren’t true communist systems, they were corrupt and broken systems so you can’t point to them and say it doesn’t work

That old chestnut...

K.Flyer · 16-10-2019 10:36am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

As opposed to our current system which is working a treat, all of our politicians are good honest lads just out to make the world a better place

:pac:

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:38am

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You wouldn't - and that in a nutshell is why it's a ridiculous idea.

I forgot to mention there is also a universal living wage paid to everyone regardless of whether they work or not. The reasons for working would be pretty much the same as always, to buy nicer/more stuff

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:39am

jaxxx wrote: »

Which would barely cover rent for the most basic of dwellings. How you gonna feed yourself? How could you ever save up for a mortgage? How are you gonna enjoy life's little luxuries like going to the cinema, going out for a drink, spending time on your hobbies? Yeah brilliant idea for those on low wage incomes. Ingenious.. .. ..

People manage all those things on the dole at the moment apart from saving for a mortgage

Fr_Dougal · 16-10-2019 10:40am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Your forgetting we only pay such high rent and high mortgage rates and high cost of living because people have that disposable income available. If it was significantly reduced tomorrow what do you think would happen to the cost of living in Ireland? Do you think it would go up or down? Look at what the rest of Europe pays for housing and living costs compared to us!

And what would happen to people who are already paying mortgages? Their income goes down, existing mortgage cost stays the same. Do you think in your utopian future that people could continue to pay a mortgage that exceeds their income?

Do you not understand what happened in the last recession? And why would anyone build houses at a loss? Do you think the cost of raw materials would drop overnight?

I haven’t seen such an idiotic post in a while.

_Brian · 16-10-2019 10:40am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

And that concludes a party broadcast for Sinn Fein.

The big winners are those already not contributing to society and again the biggest losers are those working.

And then we’re all fcuked in 5 years as the public purse and the economy both go broke simultaneously.

jaxxx · 16-10-2019 10:42am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

People manage all those things on the dole at the moment apart from saving for a mortgage

Most people on welfare get more than 400e a month.. .. ..

What sorta sauce are you on OP? Gimme the name of it would ya, I could do with a pick-me-up!

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:43am

_Brian wrote: »

And that concludes a party broadcast for Sinn Fein.

The big winners are those already not contributing to society and again the biggest losers are those working.

And then we’re all fcuked in 5 years as the public purse and the economy both go broke simultaneously.

The biggest losers currently are those working who get nothing in return for their taxes, but it’s alright cause at least doleys get a nice Christmas bonus

Richard Hillman · 16-10-2019 10:45am

Everything is free but some people like to eat more than others, or drink more than others. Some people like specific types of clothing and Footwear but there isn't enough to go around.

So who gets the preference when there is shortage? The armed forces? The politburo? The absolutely colossal government administration? Maybe we may need some sort of Social Credit System?

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:45am

jaxxx wrote: »

Most people on welfare get more than 400e a month.. .. ..

What sorta sauce are you on OP? Gimme the name of it would ya, I could do with a pick-me-up!

Yes and with the universal living wage everyone on top of your pay will be getting more than 400 per month

Mortelaro · 16-10-2019 10:46am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

The biggest losers currently are those working who get nothing in return for their taxes, but it’s alright cause at least doleys get a nice Christmas bonus

Nothing?
Your ridiculous inaccuracies get ridiculouser

ednwireland · 16-10-2019 10:47am

the problem is the state has a proven track record of wasting any extra money it gets its hands on.

i think the level of services you get in scandinavian countries for around 50% tax rates but they just seem to have a different mindset, even there politicians get significantly less pay

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2019 10:47am

quokula wrote: »

So what we need is AI-powered communism.

Developed by whom?

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 10:48am

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

And what would happen to people who are already paying mortgages? Their income goes down, existing mortgage cost stays the same. Do you think in your utopian future that people could continue to pay a mortgage that exceeds their income?

.

There would have to be a transition period, it wouldn’t be an overnight change, just a gradual increasing of tax take

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 16-10-2019 10:52am

In other words, OP, you would live on what you earned on a Monday, and hand everything you earn for the rest of the week over to the state?

No thanks.

Believing if the country would be better run if we paid higher taxes is silly. We already pay high taxes (many people paying at a marginal rate of 52%) but higher taxes only ever benefit the public sector and the welfare recipients, as governments use them to appease the unions and buy votes.

No matter how high taxes go, nothing much ever changes for the average working person, who still has to deal with dreadful healthcare, crappy roads, overcrowded trains, Travellers allowed to roam the country doing as they please, etc.

But instead of dealing with these problems, it's considered a higher priority to "restore" the pay of already well-paid public-sector workers to their dizzying boom-time heights.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 16-10-2019 11:01am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

There would have to be a transition period, it wouldn’t be an overnight change, just a gradual increasing of tax take

As taxes go up to 80%, what happens to employment?

If someone on a €30k salary can keep only €6k annually (€115 per week) they won't be able to buy very much. A dramatic fall in consumption also implies a dramatic fall in employment as shops and businesses close. So we have more people out of work, dependent on social welfare, necessitating even higher taxes on the few still left in work, leading to even lower employment and eventually a complete economic collapse.

It's amazing to me that the communists never think of this stuff.

Reviews and Books Galore · 16-10-2019 11:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

If all is free, why would I work?

So you could have the free stuff. Stop working and you could lose your house and food.

It's an interesting idea tbh, but I imagine it would lead to apathy pretty quick.

Gunmonkey · 16-10-2019 11:06am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

Could do that right now but unions would rip whoever motioned it a new one and strikes for months afterwards.....

Not much of a socialist paradise if you need to sack thousands of people to achieve it, leaving them out of pocket.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 11:10am

Mary Blue Watchband wrote: »

As taxes go up to 80%, what happens to employment?

If someone on a €30k salary can keep only €6k annually (€115 per week) they won't be able to buy very much. A dramatic fall in consumption also implies a dramatic fall in employment as shops and businesses close. So we have more people out of work, dependent on social welfare, necessitating even higher taxes on the few still left in work, leading to even lower employment and eventually a complete economic collapse.

It's amazing to me that the communists never think of this stuff.

Most people already pay about 60 to 65 percent in taxes/charges so it wouldn’t be as dramatic of a change as you seem to think. Also with only working 4 days a week, our employment rate would go up to fill the demand for that day lost, therefore there would be an increase in spending from those who used to be on the dole.

Mad_maxx · 16-10-2019 11:10am

zanador wrote: »

In countries with strong social systems and high taxation (think scandinavian) the disparity between the wages of high earners and low earners isn't as great as it is here afaik.

Low earners in the nordic countries pay eight times as much income tax as those earning below 25 k in Ireland

machaseh · 16-10-2019 11:10am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

80% flat tax on all incomes. Ouch.

So if you are on minimum wage, 1656 quid a month, you will be left with only 332 euros a month. That will not even get you a bed in a shared room in Dublin.

Meaning the government would have to provide housing for a very large part of the population who earns minimum wage or not much more than it. They are already unable to provide enough council housing and other affordable housing as is. So what is going to happen?

A massive chunk of the population will go homeless and will turn to the streets.

Not to mention the needed food stamps etc.

Would you agree to 80% income tax if everything was free?

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