Cycling on the luas at night

machaseh · 11-10-2019 9:29am #1

So the other night I was biking home and I was on the luas track. I thought I'd have right of way, but a car approached from the right side and we both had to go into an abrupt emergency stop. Whoops, sorry ! There was no Yield sign on my road so I had assumed I'd have right of way.

Some questions as I'm not from here and not entirely aware of the road rules:

- Does traffic from the left always have priority? I'm from the Netherlands and all traffic from the right (right hand drive of course) always has priority, even if it's a bike meeting a car. Or does this only apply to cars over here?
- Are you even allowed to bike on the luas tracks at night when there's no luas, or is it off limits for any vehicle? I mean I'm not in the way of anyone as the luas isn't running and it's by far the quickest route.

daragh_ · 11-10-2019 9:42am

It's illegal to cycle on the Luas tracks at any time.

https://luas.ie/safe-cycling-around-luas.html

buffalo · 11-10-2019 9:44am

daragh_ wrote: »

It's illegal to cycle on the Luas tracks at any time.

https://luas.ie/safe-cycling-around-luas.html

That's a bit misleading - there's plenty of places where the Luas tracks are on the road, so you have to cycle between/on them.

e.g. the IFSC: https://goo.gl/maps/hf4qnYnvy3JmVyBW7

D3V!L · 11-10-2019 9:47am

If the OP was on the road with a Luas track running through it like the one in the google link then the normal rules of the road apply. Anywhere else where it is an actual Luas track then he/she shouldn't be cycling at all.

magicbastarder · 11-10-2019 9:47am

machaseh wrote: »

So the other night I was biking home and I was on the luas track. I thought I'd have right of way, but a car approached from the right side and we both had to go into an abrupt emergency stop. Whoops, sorry ! There was no Yield sign on my road so I had assumed I'd have right of way.

would need more context on this to understand what happened. did the motorist drive out from a side road, or what was the exact location?

Wishbone Ash · 11-10-2019 9:57am

I'm disappointed.

Going by the thread title I thought it would be about cycling inside a carriage at night.

daragh_ · 11-10-2019 9:58am

buffalo wrote: »

That's a bit misleading - there's plenty of places where the Luas tracks are on the road, so you have to cycle between/on them.

e.g. the IFSC: https://goo.gl/maps/hf4qnYnvy3JmVyBW7

True but from my reading of the Post the OP was riding along the main Luas track. Could be wrong.

average_runner · 11-10-2019 9:58am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm disappointed.

Going by the thread title I thought it would be about cycling inside a carriage at night.

So did I and thought this would be fun!!

machaseh · 11-10-2019 10:05am

magicbastarder wrote: »

would need more context on this to understand what happened. did the motorist drive out from a side road, or what was the exact location?

It was at smithfield where the luas runs on its own track. At night it's very safe to cycle along this track as there is 0% chance of a luas appearing and there are no cars. At a crossroads at one of the many roads crossing the luas track a car came I hadnt noticed in time.

stoneill · 11-10-2019 10:08am

machaseh wrote: »

It was at smithfield where the luas runs on its own track. At night it's very safe to cycle along this track as there is 0% chance of a luas appearing and there are no cars. At a crossroads at one of the many roads crossing the luas track a car came I hadnt noticed in time.

In that case car has right of way as you are not supposed to be on the luas track.

machaseh · 11-10-2019 10:26am

stoneill wrote: »

In that case car has right of way as you are not supposed to be on the luas track.

Oh I didnt know

Why not allow cyclists at night if there's no luas anyway, or better yet construct a bike path along that route.

davetherave · 11-10-2019 10:32am

Yeah lets say the car was crossing North to South over the luas tracks from Bow Strret to Lincon Lane and you were going West to East along the luas tracks.
The last sign that you would have seen would be a no entry except trams.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3471785,-6.2783168,3a,60y,106.39h,87.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1simWe_C4swkEKAEvxrLV3_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Utter Consternation · 11-10-2019 10:34am

machaseh wrote: »

Oh I didnt know

Why not allow cyclists at night if there's no luas anyway, or better yet construct a bike path along that route.

AKA drawing a cycle lane that occupies 33% of the luas track.

salmocab · 11-10-2019 10:34am

machaseh wrote: »

It was at smithfield where the luas runs on its own track. At night it's very safe to cycle along this track as there is 0% chance of a luas appearing and there are no cars. At a crossroads at one of the many roads crossing the luas track a car came I hadnt noticed in time.

Surely the second part of this post shows the first part to be nonsense.

daragh_ · 11-10-2019 10:36am

machaseh wrote: »

Oh I didnt know

Why not allow cyclists at night if there's no luas anyway, or better yet construct a bike path along that route.

Having a bike path alongside the entire Luas track would be an excellent idea - but that ship has sailed I think.

As it is cycling parallel to the tracks can be problematic - we've all heard stories or have direct experience of what happens when your wheel slips in :eek:

daragh_ · 11-10-2019 10:38am

ted1 · 11-10-2019 10:41am

daragh_ wrote: »

It's illegal to cycle on the Luas tracks at any time.

https://luas.ie/safe-cycling-around-luas.html

honestly I don't buy it. I'd like to see the legislation, which they are not pointing you towards.

even the link you posted goes on to say:
**************************
Shared Tramways

In a limited number of locations Luas tracks are located in Shared Tramways which are used by trams, vehicles and cyclists.
*********************************

and in Dec 2017 it wasn't illegal: http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/dublin-cyclists-luas-routes/

magicbastarder · 11-10-2019 10:51am

davetherave wrote: »

Yeah lets say the car was crossing North to South over the luas tracks from Bow Strret to Lincon Lane and you were going West to East along the luas tracks.
The last sign that you would have seen would be a no entry except trams.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3471785,-6.2783168,3a,60y,106.39h,87.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1simWe_C4swkEKAEvxrLV3_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

i wonder would that mean that any junctions crossing the lines from that sign on (until the restriction ends) would show permanent green for crossing traffic, outside luas operating hours?
if it's luas only on that section, the only signals for traffic on the line would be luas specific ones, which are very different for traffic lights motorists and cyclists would expect to see.

daragh_ · 11-10-2019 11:00am

ted1 wrote: »

honestly I don't buy it. I'd like to see the legislation, which they are not pointing you towards.

even the link you posted goes on to say:
**************************
Shared Tramways

In a limited number of locations Luas tracks are located in Shared Tramways which are used by trams, vehicles and cyclists.
*********************************

and in Dec 2017 it wasn't illegal: http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/dublin-cyclists-luas-routes/

Fair point - I didn't bother to drill down tbh.

Here's an alternative way to travel along the tracks at night without slipping

stoneill · 11-10-2019 11:33am

daragh_ wrote: »

Fair point - I didn't bother to drill down tbh.

Here's an alternative way to travel along the tracks at night without slipping

I see Bratislava has the same traffic volume as Dublin there.

machaseh · 11-10-2019 11:59am

daragh_ wrote: »

Having a bike path alongside the entire Luas track would be an excellent idea - but that ship has sailed I think.

As it is cycling parallel to the tracks can be problematic - we've all heard stories or have direct experience of what happens when your wheel slips in :eek:

Man I'm from the Netherlands and we bike on roads with tram tracks every single day. Everybody knows that you just have to cross the tracks at a certain angle to avoid these issues. Of course people who are on their smartphones or distracted for any reason still occasionally fall due to the tram tracks but it's usually their own fault.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wonder would that mean that any junctions crossing the lines from that sign on (until the restriction ends) would show permanent green for crossing traffic, outside luas operating hours?
if it's luas only on that section, the only signals for traffic on the line would be luas specific ones, which are very different for traffic lights motorists and cyclists would expect to see.

I know what the bus/tram specific lights mean. I don't remember seeing any lights activated, but then again I am not entirely sure of that. Perhaps the two horizontal red dots (=stop) were on in which case it was 100% my mistake of course, but I dont remember seeing it. (At least in the Netherlands these specific tramlights are placed on all bus-only lanes and tram lanes).

CramCycle · 11-10-2019 12:29pm

machaseh wrote: »

I know what the bus/tram specific lights mean. I don't remember seeing any lights activated, but then again I am not entirely sure of that. Perhaps the two horizontal red dots (=stop) were on in which case it was 100% my mistake of course, but I dont remember seeing it. (At least in the Netherlands these specific tramlights are placed on all bus-only lanes and tram lanes).

I could be wrong but it is a white line, if it is vertical, you have right of way, if it is horizontal you don't. Outside of operational hours, I am unsure if they work or not but I presume they do, just never change as no LUAS triggers the change.

davetherave · 11-10-2019 12:33pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wonder would that mean that any junctions crossing the lines from that sign on (until the restriction ends) would show permanent green for crossing traffic, outside luas operating hours?
if it's luas only on that section, the only signals for traffic on the line would be luas specific ones, which are very different for traffic lights motorists and cyclists would expect to see.

Interesting question, I've always assumed that the "road traffic" light would be green until a tram was detected approaching the junction and it would then change to allow the tram to proceed through the junction. In which case I suppose there would be no need to alter it, the road traffic would be showing green until a tram approaches the junction anyway.

AFter a bit of searching this would agree with that
https://www.tii.ie/public-transport/luas/signals-junctions/

Priority levels
In general, trams are granted high priority at all junctions on the System by terminating the current traffic phase (also referred to as stages) once a tram has been detected on approach to the junctions. At certain junctions with strategic importance to the road network, e.g. O’Connell Street Lower / Abbey Street and Store Street / Amiens Street, the level of priority afforded to trams is reduced at different periods of the day. In such scenarios trams can operate at medium priority, where the tram may have to wait for the current traffic phase to end, and low priority, where a tram must wait for the tram phase to appear in cycle.

ELM327 · 11-10-2019 12:34pm

In the absence of any other law you must give way to traffic coming from your right

daragh_ · 11-10-2019 12:47pm

machaseh wrote: »

Man I'm from the Netherlands and we bike on roads with tram tracks every single day. Everybody knows that you just have to cross the tracks at a certain angle to avoid these issues. Of course people who are on their smartphones or distracted for any reason still occasionally fall due to the tram tracks but it's usually their own fault.

Good for you. But we all know the best bike handlers are Belgian

machaseh · 11-10-2019 12:53pm

daragh_ wrote: »

Good for you. But we all know the best bike handlers are Belgian

Yeah because they have to avoid all the potholes while biking and have to cross dual carriageways with a speed limit of 120 without any traffic lights.

I grew up 15 kilometers from the Belgian border. Upon crossing the border the roads would be full of potholes and there was the E34 expressway running along the border. At the time, this was a road with traffic lights and also unprotected crossings. Lately they've upgraded to a proper motorway and fixed the potholes though.

brocbrocach · 11-10-2019 1:05pm

I'd assume it's the same as jumping onto the road from a footpath or temporarily cycling on a footpath or going down the wrong way down a one-way street - you're being cheeky so you have to be the one who gives way.

lgk · 11-10-2019 1:20pm

ELM327 wrote: »

In the absence of any other law you must give way to traffic coming from your right

The yield to traffic on your right only applies to traffic approaching a junction on roads of equal importance where there is no other signage or lights to indicate precedence.

machaseh · 11-10-2019 1:30pm

Well I guess I'll avoid the luas tracks at night from now on then. I am always just a bit afraid of biking on the quays you see.

average_runner · 11-10-2019 1:56pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I could be wrong but it is a white line, if it is vertical, you have right of way, if it is horizontal you don't. Outside of operational hours, I am unsure if they work or not but I presume they do, just never change as no LUAS triggers the change.

As far as I am aware all of the junctions have lights. So the cyclists needs to obey the luas lights when on the track. So if the car had the green light, the cyclist was wrong.

The one outside Trinity where the bus and luas merge, someone will die there, cyclists constantly not obeying the lights there when on the track

ELM327 · 11-10-2019 2:04pm

lgk wrote: »

The yield to traffic on your right only applies to traffic approaching a junction on roads of equal importance where there is no other signage or lights to indicate precedence.

Correct
And are we presuming that the cyclist should observe the luas lights which do not align with the correct light format in the SI?

If the car had a green light then the cyclist is wrong

11-10-2019 2:26pm

ELM327 wrote: »

And are we presuming that the cyclist should observe the luas lights which do not align with the correct light format in the SI?

No, because the junctions which only have Luas lights are tram-only lanes, which are illegal to cycle on. Mixed-use roads with Luas tracks have regular lights

average_runner wrote: »

The one outside Trinity where the bus and luas merge, someone will die there, cyclists constantly not obeying the lights there when on the track

That section is a tram lane, it's illegal to cycle on the track part

brocbrocach · 11-10-2019 2:28pm

machaseh wrote: »

Well I guess I'll avoid the luas tracks at night from now on then. I am always just a bit afraid of biking on the quays you see.

Well, the easiest solution is to continue cycling it but to yield at all junctions.

average_runner · 11-10-2019 2:28pm

28064212 wrote: »

No, because the junctions which only have Luas lights are tram-only lanes, which are illegal to cycle on. Mixed-use roads with Luas tracks have regular lights

That section is a tram lane, it's illegal to cycle on the track part

Well most cyclists in Dublin dont know that.

ELM327 · 11-10-2019 2:37pm

28064212 wrote: »

No, because the junctions which only have Luas lights are tram-only lanes, which are illegal to cycle on. Mixed-use roads with Luas tracks have regular lights

That section is a tram lane, it's illegal to cycle on the track part

Ok then the cyclist is wrong by default then as they shouldnt have been there at all.

11-10-2019 2:40pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Ok then the cyclist is wrong by default then as they shouldnt have been there at all.

Yes, although the cyclist being in the wrong doesn't automatically absolve any and all other road users

lgk · 11-10-2019 3:36pm

28064212 wrote: »

No, because the junctions which only have Luas lights are tram-only lanes, which are illegal to cycle on. Mixed-use roads with Luas tracks have regular lights

That section is a tram lane, it's illegal to cycle on the track part

Yeah, illegal for any vehicle to proceed past the no-entry signs at the start of those luas-only sections.

cdaly_ · 11-10-2019 4:47pm

28064212 wrote: »

No, because the junctions which only have Luas lights are tram-only lanes, which are illegal to cycle on. Mixed-use roads with Luas tracks have regular lights

That section is a tram lane, it's illegal to cycle on the track part

average_runner wrote: »

Well most cyclists in Dublin dont know that.

I don't think that's the case. I'd say most of them know...

GreeBo · 11-10-2019 4:49pm

OP if the luas line crossed a road I would have expected there to be a junction with lights, what state were the luas "traffic" lights in when you entered the junction?

salmocab · 11-10-2019 5:02pm

GreeBo wrote: »

OP if the luas line crossed a road I would have expected there to be a junction with lights, what state were the luas "traffic" lights in when you entered the junction?

If they are luas type lights then presumably at night they are either off or at the horizontal for stop

GreeBo · 11-10-2019 5:35pm

salmocab wrote: »

If they are luas type lights then presumably at night they are either off or at the horizontal for stop

Which is my point, how could the OP think he has right of way when facing a stop signal.

salmocab · 11-10-2019 5:38pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Which is my point, how could the OP think he has right of way when facing a stop signal.

Based on the actual OP he was confident of no trams coming along and just started cycling without paying attention to the crossing. I don’t think he thought he had right of way I think he didn’t think at all about it.

GreeBo · 11-10-2019 7:25pm

salmocab wrote: »

Based on the actual OP he was confident of no trams coming along and just started cycling without paying attention to the crossing. I don’t think he thought he had right of way I think he didn’t think at all about it.

Well he does clearly say in his first post "I thought I'd have right of way"

colm_mcm · 11-10-2019 8:28pm

machaseh wrote: »

Oh I didnt know

Why not allow cyclists at night if there's no luas anyway, or better yet construct a bike path along that route.

Because of people like you getting in accidents

magicbastarder · 11-10-2019 9:36pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Because of people like you getting in accidents

eh, if they did make it officially a cycle track, the signs and signals would obviously clarify right of way in a sense that's not needed at the moment.

anyway, welcome to the cycling forum; no need to be snippy, thanks.

LennoxR · 12-10-2019 10:31pm

machaseh wrote: »

Well I guess I'll avoid the luas tracks at night from now on then. I am always just a bit afraid of biking on the quays you see.

To be honest I'd go on using the backstreet with the Luas tracks (I do). It is definitely safer than the south quays. Just be careful at intersections, that's all.

AndrewJRenko · 20-10-2019 8:30pm

average_runner wrote: »

Well most cyclists in Dublin dont know that.

Most drivers heading east on Mayor St Upper don't seem to know the laws there either; https://goo.gl/maps/i3H51GdMo2DHWWmz7

AndrewJRenko · 20-10-2019 8:30pm

daragh_ wrote: »

Do Easons know that someone leaked their CCTV footage?

Cycling on the luas at night

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