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Storage heaters or oil heating for rental property

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    #32
    oldsmokey
    Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭oldsmokey


    Dardania wrote: »
    Another point to note: there is less possibility of a carbon monoxide incident with electric storage heaters, compared to with an oil boiler.

    My advice would be electric heating with good controls, and you won't have any complaints. Oil is going to be increasingly taxed in the coming decade, so you run the risk of the tenant not using the oil heating due to running cost concerns (and so, a damp apartment).

    What about rest of the apartment - decent insulation, and ventilation?
    Its an old building., insulated in the 80s, so going to improve on that, decent enough otherwise, i was reared there ~:)


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    #33
    oldsmokey
    Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭oldsmokey


    Theres existing plumbing for ch, the boiler is shagged, on balance reading here, renters prefer oil, so i reckon an upgrade to what we have is on the cards, thanks all


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    #34
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    oldsmokey wrote: »
    Theres existing plumbing for ch, the boiler is shagged, on balance reading here, renters prefer oil, so i reckon an upgrade to what we have is on the cards, thanks all
    Sure let someone steal the contents of the oil tank


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    #35
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    There is another thread here somewhere about putting in an air to air heat pump to heat an apartment. This might be a solution worth considering.

    A lot depends on whether the apartment is really cold. If it is, then you need to be sure the new heating system, whatever it is, has plenty capacity.

    Im currently trying to replace storage heaters and was researching air to air heat pumps. Its hard to find much information on them by people who have actually used them. But from what I gather an installation costs somewhere between 7k to 10k so its not a small investment. Also the SEAI only offer a 600 grant on them compared to 3,500 if you install an air to water heat pump.

    The main claim behind heat pumps is that for every Kwh of electricity you use to run the pump you receive 4Kwh of heat which is very efficient. However it can be a bit of a disingenious claim because their efficiency depends on the temperature outdoors- if it is freezing outside then the pump goes into defrost mode and the efficieny goes way down to about 2Kwhs of heat for 1Kwh of electricity. I was reading somewhere that you get their full efficiency if the temp outdoors is above 8 or 9 degrees, anything below that and the efficiency goes down. Also they may not be a good idea in a retrofit, its said that insulation needs to be taken care of first before going down the heat pump route. This is because if you are losing heat through bad or no insulation then a heat pump can become massively expensive to run and you end up with huge electricity bills.


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    #36
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    That is a lot to pay for an air con unit. I don’t know how the install prices out but you can buy 5kw for in the region of GBP 2000

    https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-electric-air-conditioning-ms-wall-unit-a-aa-43-c.asp

    If you need to run an electric heater now and again on the coldest day, so what?


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    #37
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Im currently trying to replace storage heaters and was researching air to air heat pumps. Its hard to find much information on them by people who have actually used them. But from what I gather an installation costs somewhere between 7k to 10k so its not a small investment. Also the SEAI only offer a 600 grant on them compared to 3,500 if you install an air to water heat pump.

    The main claim behind heat pumps is that for every Kwh of electricity you use to run the pump you receive 4Kwh of heat which is very efficient. However it can be a bit of a disingenious claim because their efficiency depends on the temperature outdoors- if it is freezing outside then the pump goes into defrost mode and the efficieny goes way down to about 2Kwhs of heat for 1Kwh of electricity. I was reading somewhere that you get their full efficiency if the temp outdoors is above 8 or 9 degrees, anything below that and the efficiency goes down. Also they may not be a good idea in a retrofit, its said that insulation needs to be taken care of first before going down the heat pump route. This is because if you are losing heat through bad or no insulation then a heat pump can become massively expensive to run and you end up with huge electricity bills.

    Unless you make the building air tight then forget heat pumps


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    #38
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    There are the same sorts of issues with stirage heaters. The output of either storage heaters or air con units are just a lot less than a gas or oil boiler of similar cost, at the end of the day.

    The issue will be that the heat input is less than the heat loss, not the type of heat source used.


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    #39
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    A gas heater is a pretty expensive source of heat, especially as the main source of heat. In some apartment blocks it may be a breach of the head lease to use a gas heater for fire safety reasons.

    As far as I know if you have piped gas available, gas is the cheapest per a unit of heat. Naturally if you have free timber or a heat pump those can be cheaper overall but that is not normally possible.


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    #40
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Yes for sure. A gas boiler. But not a gas heater running off bottled gas with a naked flame which is what I think was being referred to.


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    #41
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    ted1 wrote: »
    Unless you make the building air tight then forget heat pumps

    What level of airtightness would you need to pull off a heat pump. Looking at the specs of new builds heats pumps seem to be becoming mainstream. It will be interesting to know of these new houses are airtight enough for them.


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    #42
    CosmicFool
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭CosmicFool


    I've rented a few places the last few years and I've always stayed away from apartments with storage heaters. They cost a fortune. They are a pain for a tenant. As a poster said before newer models are cheaper to run etc etc but you cannot beat oil or gas in my opinion. Way better heating system and heats up the apartment better. As a poster mentioned before even with the storage heaters the new tenants might not use them regularly because they cost more to run and if it's a cold house mould etc might appear.
    Spend the extra few quid and treat you're tenants right. Pick people who you'll think won't ruin the place and they'll want to stay.


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    #43
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Effects wrote: »
    Gas heaters create excess moisture though. That's why I wouldn't be into them.

    Never found that myself. The flame dries..


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    #44
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    A gas heater is a pretty expensive source of heat, especially as the main source of heat. In some apartment blocks it may be a breach of the head lease to use a gas heater for fire safety reasons.

    Bottled gas in an isolated cottage. Pay in advance and no bills and easy to budget. and effective. Makes great toast too ;)

    Each to his own of course. I now have a solid fuel stove with a backboiler and this is the best ever. _


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    #45
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Never found that myself. The flame dries..
    Butane causes dampness if not used in a properly ventilated area. Propane doesn't, but propane does create carbon monoxide.


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    #46
    soo35
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭soo35


    Currently apartment/house hunting. Every time I see a photo with a storage heater on the wall I discard it. Costs too much to use.


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    #47
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,666 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    As already said by others, I've actively avoided apartments with storage heating in the past despite everything else looking good. Too many horror stories about bills and they're too awkward to use.

    Gas plus proper rads only for me.


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    #48
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    robp wrote: »
    What level of airtightness would you need to pull off a heat pump. Looking at the specs of new builds heats pumps seem to be becoming mainstream. It will be interesting to know of these new houses are airtight enough for them.

    Not sure what the Irish building standards are given they test with vents blocked up and then uncover them, but passive house standard is 0.6 air changes per hour at 50 Pascals last time i looked. I think older houses could be an easier option given could be solid build, easier to airtight the inside and cover it up and insulate externally. Mech ventilation recover heat and some means to heat water and you're good,


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    #49
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Never found that myself. The flame dries..

    Its a funny one as they do seem to dry the air I've even heard of people putting a bowl with water on top to give off some extra moisture.
    But the fact is an open gas flame burns the gas with oxygen in the air and produces water and co2.
    I'm not sure why when they are adding moisture they seem to dry the air but I do agree they appear to dry it.
    Decent ventilation and the moisture shouldn't be an issue.


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    #50
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,457 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    Its a funny one as they do seem to dry the air I've even heard of people putting a bowl with water on top to give off some extra moisture.
    But the fact is an open gas flame burns the gas with oxygen in the air and produces water and co2.
    I'm not sure why when they are adding moisture they seem to dry the air but I do agree they appear to dry it.
    Decent ventilation and the moisture shouldn't be an issue.

    Because as temperature rises, relative humidity falls. The problem is later when the heat is turned off and the air temperature drops and you're left with a very damp location.


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    #51
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Put in oil heating with a condenser oil burner and good plump. That way they are guaranteed heat at any time. Alot of people cannot figure out how to use the storage heaters. Show them how to use and make sure they know not to leave the tank dry or there will be costs to get someone out to bleed the system.


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    #52
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    tvjunki wrote: »
    Alot of people cannot figure out how to use the storage heaters.

    I think the problem with storage heaters is even if you do figure out how to use the input and output properly they still do not have enough heat in them come the evening time when they are most needed. Ive experimented with them in three different apartments and the same problem persists. There are newer more efficient models of them available now, Im not sure if they are any better but if you had a choice of using them or an oil boiler then it would be oil everyday.


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    #53
    Car99
    Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99


    Get oil in and invest in a GSM oil level sensor which will let you monitor the remaining oil quantity in the tank and also set it up to inform the tenant.


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    #54
    shenanagans
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭shenanagans


    Put in new storage heaters. They're easy to use, WiFi enabled etc. Heat up in 10 minutes. I put them in recently....tenants love them. Can be controlled from your phone. They are far more efficient than in past years.

    Oil will be costly in coming years...carbon taxes are coming.


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    How is this even a decision? Oil 100%, storage heaters terrible, expensive and the vast majority of people will avoid them like the plague. Only a LL would ever fit them too as no one would do it in their own home.

    Being WiFi enabled is certainly not any advantage of storage heaters, there are many options for controlling oil and gas with smart controls such as Nest etc.


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    #56
    shenanagans
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭shenanagans


    Dorian Witty Beige wrote: »
    How is this even a decision? Oil 100%, storage heaters terrible, expensive and the vast majority of people will avoid them like the plague. Only a LL would ever fit them too as no one would do it in their own home.

    Being WiFi enabled is certainly not any advantage of storage heaters, there are many options for controlling oil and gas with smart controls such as Nest etc.

    I would put them in my home. They are very efficient. Heat up just as fast as oil radiators.

    Storage heater even 10 years ago were **** but the new technology is fantastic. Unless you're familiar with them it's unfair to put someone off with negative comments.


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    #57
    ercork
    Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    I don't think you are talking about storage heaters. These sound like on-demand electric heaters like Lucht or Ecovolt. They use full price electricity when operated during the day/evening. Mind you, they're still better than storage heaters.


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    #58
    ercork
    Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Im currently trying to replace storage heaters and was researching air to air heat pumps. Its hard to find much information on them by people who have actually used them. But from what I gather an installation costs somewhere between 7k to 10k so its not a small investment. Also the SEAI only offer a 600 grant on them compared to 3,500 if you install an air to water heat pump.

    The main claim behind heat pumps is that for every Kwh of electricity you use to run the pump you receive 4Kwh of heat which is very efficient. However it can be a bit of a disingenious claim because their efficiency depends on the temperature outdoors- if it is freezing outside then the pump goes into defrost mode and the efficieny goes way down to about 2Kwhs of heat for 1Kwh of electricity. I was reading somewhere that you get their full efficiency if the temp outdoors is above 8 or 9 degrees, anything below that and the efficiency goes down. Also they may not be a good idea in a retrofit, its said that insulation needs to be taken care of first before going down the heat pump route. This is because if you are losing heat through bad or no insulation then a heat pump can become massively expensive to run and you end up with huge electricity bills.


    I got an air to air unit installed about 6 months ago for under 2k. 7k to 10k sounds more like the price you'd pay for an air to water system.


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    #59
    Red Alert
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    L1011 wrote: »
    New storage heaters really aren't as awful as the 80s ones most people remember. You do need to get a night rate meter installed or else the economy of them collapses though.

    They are awful! I lived with them only a couple of years ago, and I was somewhat of an expert at them. Many other people in the block didn't bother using them at all, and wasted money on bar fires. My bills were about the same theirs but my apartment was comfortable for the same money, but I was also working from home a lot.

    So, from the tenants point of view the oil system would be better. Another option might be LPG tank & boiler, using the existing oil system's radiators. Less to go wrong then, and Calor/Flogas may well give you a deal on the tank & boiler changeover.


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    #60
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    shenanagans wrote: »
    Put in new storage heaters. They're easy to use, WiFi enabled etc. Heat up in 10 minutes. I put them in recently....tenants love them. Can be controlled from your phone. They are far more efficient than in past years.

    Oil will be costly in coming years...carbon taxes are coming.

    Could you give us an idea of what they cost and brand names. Would be interested in researching them.
    ercork wrote: »
    I got an air to air unit installed about 6 months ago for under 2k. 7k to 10k sounds more like the price you'd pay for an air to water system.

    Yeah I think I got the two mixed up. How are you finding the air to air system, whats it like on running costs and are you using it as your primary heat source? Also what company did you go with?


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    #61
    ercork
    Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    I'm very happy with it so far. If gas and oil are not an option and you're stuck with electricity then an air to air system is probably the best option. I posted a couple of times in this thread recently:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057696142

    If you want details of the quotes I got just PM me and I'll dig them out.


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