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House sale contract signed

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    #32
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    fliball123 wrote: »
    That is true but you can be damn sure the solicitor for the buyer will include it from the sellers side thy automatically just accept that the buyer has mortgage approval and there wont be an issue..its a grey area

    There is no grey area. If the vendor doesn't want he can say that he doesn't want it and is under no obligation to accept. If he signs the contract with it he can be shafted. If he refuses to sign with the loan approval clause in it either the buyer signs and takes the risk or the vendor finds another buyer.


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    #33
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    Thanks all for your input. I have been busy working on frontline services its bed to work etc.

    It seems that the sale is going trough ( we have hear noting negative coming from the other is when they signed the contract loan approval had been granted and both sides have signed. But like everything anything can happen 3 weeks ago would any of us have gussed the world would be turned upside down.


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    #34
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,726 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    They'd be mad NOT to pull out. Any loss of deposit would be more than compensated for by the expected 20% average drop in market prices, when they return after the crisis. If, of course, they retain their employment and by extension their financing etc.

    Sorry dude.

    The expected 20 percent price drop ?

    Expected by who ? Why 20. %?


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    #35
    kevinc565
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭kevinc565


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    If you understood it, it means the deposit is gone at a minimum. Irish conveyancing law and British are very different and it is dangerous to assume the same principles apply.

    1) I am not making an assumption that they are the same. I'm suggesting that they could be in this case ( "I would think").

    2) the above means you only lose your full deposit where a) the vendor doesn't sell in a year after the original sale falls through or b) the vendor sells for the original agreed price less your deposit plus his costs.
    .

    Clearly in reality the vendor will act to maximise his own utility, so the deposit is as good as gone however in a rising market (not now) there would be a chance of deposit recovery. To suggest that the 100% of deposit is 100% gone is not true.


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    #36
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    kevinc565 wrote: »
    To suggest that the 100% of deposit is 100% gone is not true.

    Your earlier quote from the law society appears to suggests otherwise.

    The deposit is forfeit.


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    #37
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    kevinc565 wrote: »
    1) I am not making an assumption that they are the same. I'm suggesting that they could be in this case ( "I would think").

    2) the above means you only lose your full deposit where a) the vendor doesn't sell in a year after the original sale falls through or b) the vendor sells for the original agreed price less your deposit plus his costs.
    .

    Clearly in reality the vendor will act to maximise his own utility, so the deposit is as good as gone however in a rising market (not now) there would be a chance of deposit recovery. To suggest that the 100% of deposit is 100% gone is not true.
    Suggesting you think something could be the same and using weasel phrase like "I would think" is either suggesting you have some basis or knowledge for your proposition or else simply to cover yourself when your rubbish is exposed for the nonsense that it is.

    What the clause means is that if the Vendor sell at a loss and incurs additional costs they come from the deposit first, if the vendor makes a profit, he keeps it, and the deposit.


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    #38
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    They'd be mad NOT to pull out. Any loss of deposit would be more than compensated for by the expected 20% average drop in market prices, when they return after the crisis. If, of course, they retain their employment and by extension their financing etc.
    Unless they're Civil Servants, their jobs are not guaranteed. Also, when prices drop due to unemployment, lending rules could get stricter.


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    #39
    kevinc565
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭kevinc565


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Suggesting you think something could be the same and using weasel phrase like "I would think" is either suggesting you have some basis or knowledge for your proposition or else simply to cover yourself when your rubbish is exposed for the nonsense that it is.

    What the clause means is that if the Vendor sell at a loss and incurs additional costs they come from the deposit first, if the vendor makes a profit, he keeps it, and the deposit.

    Why are you so aggressive?

    Stating that principles of irish law may be similar to british law is not rubbish. most of our law was inherited from them. I cleared stated it was a british legal source, and people should be intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions from that. eg british legal source, could be similar but may not be. always best to check.

    following link is about employment law but in the opening paragraphs states that Irish and British law are highly similar. Pedant note: hugely similar does not mean identical.

    https://employmentrightsireland.com/irish-and-uk-employment-law-what-are-the-main-differences/

    I might be wrong on the deposit, probably am!


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    #40
    StoptheClocks
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭StoptheClocks


    I sold a house in February. It was sale agreed in December and empty for over a month.
    When the purchaser was ready to sign they asked for a clause to be added that if the bank refused them from drawing down on their mortgage that I would refund their deposit. My solicitor told me that this is becoming standard practise and it's something she insists on herself.
    It would only cover the bank pulling the plug on the purchaser, not them changing their minds. It was concerning for me at the time.
    Your solicitor should outline this to you.


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    #41
    kevinc565
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭kevinc565


    StoptheClocks wrote: »
    I sold a house in February. It was sale agreed in December and empty for over a month.
    When the purchaser was ready to sign they asked for a clause to be added that if the bank refused them from drawing down on their mortgage that I would refund their deposit. My solicitor told me that this is becoming standard practise and it's something she insists on herself.
    It would only cover the bank pulling the plug on the purchaser, not them changing their minds. It was concerning for me at the time.
    Your solicitor should outline this to you.

    Interesting. Plenty of buyers would like a term like that in contracts fro sale. Venders not so much!. Give and take = hence a market.

    If it's becoming practise then good for buyers as always a risk bank may decide not to play ball , however small, after contracts have been signed leavign the buyer in a messy position.


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    #42
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    kevinc565 wrote: »
    Why are you so aggressive?

    Stating that principles of irish law may be similar to british law is not rubbish. most of our law was inherited from them. I cleared stated it was a british legal source, and people should be intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions from that. eg british legal source, could be similar but may not be. always best to check.

    following link is about employment law but in the opening paragraphs states that Irish and British law are highly similar. Pedant note: hugely similar does not mean identical.

    https://employmentrightsireland.com/irish-and-uk-employment-law-what-are-the-main-differences/

    I might be wrong on the deposit, probably am!
    why are you so stubborn? Irish law and British law may derive from the common law but that is far from saying that you can apply British law to any Irish situation. An intelligent person would actually check themselves before posting rather than leave it to the reader to work out for themselves.
    You are now trying to extrapolate from employment law to land law. This is clearly in attempt to support your hypothesis that Irish and British law are similar and therefore one can safely look at the situation, see what would happen in a British context and applied to Ireland.
    Employment law is a particularly bad example to give in this context. Most employment law in either jurisdiction is derived from European directives which have as their object achieving the same effect in all the member states of the European Union. The situation is radically different with regard to land law. Irish and British landlord have differed significantly since the 18th century. Unless you know what the differences are, you simply can't look at British law and apply it to an Irish situation.

    You are of course wrong about the deposit.


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    #43
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,114 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    StoptheClocks wrote: »
    I sold a house in February. It was sale agreed in December and empty for over a month.
    When the purchaser was ready to sign they asked for a clause to be added that if the bank refused them from drawing down on their mortgage that I would refund their deposit. My solicitor told me that this is becoming standard practise and it's something she insists on herself.
    It would only cover the bank pulling the plug on the purchaser, not them changing their minds. It was concerning for me at the time.
    Your solicitor should outline this to you.


    Surely a buyer who wanted to pull the plug could convince the bank to rescind it's offer.......perhaps some new evidence of "changed circumstances" could wing its way to the bank somehow....


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    #44
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    StoptheClocks wrote: »
    I sold a house in February. It was sale agreed in December and empty for over a month.
    When the purchaser was ready to sign they asked for a clause to be added that if the bank refused them from drawing down on their mortgage that I would refund their deposit. My solicitor told me that this is becoming standard practise and it's something she insists on herself.
    It would only cover the bank pulling the plug on the purchaser, not them changing their minds. It was concerning for me at the time.
    Your solicitor should outline this to you.

    That is the clause I was talking about it also covers if the time period of mortgage approval has lapsed and the buyer has to reapply if the bank says no the buyer is in danger of losing their deposit over a decision that they have no say over.


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    #45
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kevinc565 wrote: »
    Interesting. Plenty of buyers would like a term like that in contracts fro sale. Venders not so much!. Give and take = hence a market.

    If it's becoming practise then good for buyers as always a risk bank may decide not to play ball , however small, after contracts have been signed leavign the buyer in a messy position.

    Well I can see it being used a bit over the next few months people who were sure bets 2/3 months ago are no longer a sure bet now and the bank may not give the approval if they have to reapply


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    #46
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    Going what ye have said written on the contract that loan approval was agreed. How can that be changed as it is part of a legal document. If the bank or the buyer pull out they are in breach of contract as it's part of the contract and the closing date.


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    #47
    StoptheClocks
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭StoptheClocks


    The bank can change their mind on loan approval. It's only loan approval in principle.
    So if you sign the contract and then the bank refuse the loan you lose the deposit.
    So the clause covers the buyer in this scenario. It's frustrating because when they sign contracts the solicitor triggers the drawdown from the bank, the bank will do final checks before releasing the money. This is were people run into trouble. The banks have refused loans leaving people stuck in contracts.


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    #48
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blowin3 wrote: »
    Going what ye have said written on the contract that loan approval was agreed. How can that be changed as it is part of a legal document. If the bank or the buyer pull out they are in breach of contract as it's part of the contract and the closing date.


    It can be changed if the bank decide to say sorry I know we offered you a mortgage but things have changed and we are no longer going to offer you that. When a third party has control over a contract there will always be a clause that if the third party pulls the plug all bets are off


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    #49
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    fliball123 wrote: »
    It can be changed if the bank decide to say sorry I know we offered you a mortgage but things have changed and we are no longer going to offer you that. When a third party has control over a contract there will always be a clause that if the third party pulls the plug all bets are off

    Ok that does not sound promising than. The actioner is say everything is ok as he would. The solicitor acting for us also says the same but we have heard nothing from the buyer saying anything to the contrary. The closing date is 2 weeks away. It will horrible if it falls through after getting so close.


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    #50
    StoptheClocks
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭StoptheClocks


    I had a closing date of the 19th January. It didn't close until the end of February. It was because the purchasers solicitor dragged their feet. The Estate agent was telling me the purchaser wants to get in and had sent the deposit to their solicitor. I had moved out of the house. I was in the dark to what was going on for over 5 weeks. A very stressful time. Good luck with it.


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    #51
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blowin3 wrote: »
    Ok that does not sound promising than. The actioner is say everything is ok as he would. The solicitor acting for us also says the same but we have heard nothing from the buyer saying anything to the contrary. The closing date is 2 weeks away. It will horrible if it falls through after getting so close.

    I would quickly try and find out if the buyers loan approval is close to lapsing as they would get out of it if they have to reapply and got refused the loan


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    #52
    kevinc565
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭kevinc565


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I would quickly try and find out if the buyers loan approval is close to lapsing as they would get out of it if they have to reapply and got refused the loan


    If a person wanted to they could always jeopardise their own mortgage application,by making a few calls, and then avail of the get out?


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    #53
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    kevinc565 wrote: »
    If a person wanted to they could always jeopardise their own mortgage application,by making a few calls, and then avail of the get out?

    So a contract is not worth the paper its written on by what people are saying here.
    I was always under the impression that when both parties sign its legally binding. If all the ducks are not in a row for both parties you dont sign that includes loan offer approved. But what you say a few phone calls and you are not in breach of contract if you dont see it trough. I should think if standing in front of a judge you would need a good explanation to get out without losing deposit etc


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    #54
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blowin3 wrote: »
    So a contract is not worth the paper its written on by what people are saying here.
    I was always under the impression that when both parties sign its legally binding. If all the ducks are not in a row for both parties you dont sign that includes loan offer approved. But what you say a few phone calls and you are not in breach of contract if you dont see it trough. I should think if standing in front of a judge you would need a good explanation to get out without losing deposit etc

    yeah but there will always be a clause for any third party that enter into the contract in this case the bank who will be funding most of the purchase. You can let your approval expire and the times we are in now are a lot different to 3 months ago and a good chance that when you have to reapply for mortgage approval you will not get it.


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    #55
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    fliball123 wrote: »
    yeah but there will always be a clause for any third party that enter into the contract in this case the bank who will be funding most of the purchase. You can let your approval expire and the times we are in now are a lot different to 3 months ago and a good chance that when you have to reapply for mortgage approval you will not get it.

    I get all that but if it sipulates close date say the 14 of April and everything is in place to close including an live loan offer. If they change their minds due to whats happening they are in breach of contract.

    Am I missing something .


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    #56
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blowin3 wrote: »
    I get all that but if it sipulates close date say the 14 of April and everything is in place to close including an live loan offer. If they change their minds due to whats happening they are in breach of contract.

    Am I missing something .

    Ahh if it has a closing date and you signed up to it then you have no come back but if you have to reapply for the mortgage before the close date you can get out of it with the bank providing the mortgage clause


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    #57
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Ahh if it has a closing date and you signed up to it then you have no come back but if you have to reapply for the mortgage before the close date you can get out of it with the bank providing the mortgage clause

    We are not the buyers but selling the property.

    Hence the worry we are only getting from the actioner we have to wait and see.
    The solicitor says we have a contract but wont guarantee the sale going through same as actioner wait and see. Thanks for the input.


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    #58
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blowin3 wrote: »
    We are not the buyers but selling the property.

    Hence the worry we are only getting from the actioner we have to wait and see.
    The solicitor says we have a contract but wont guarantee the sale going through same as actioner wait and see. Thanks for the input.


    I would probably ask your EA to contact the buyer to see if they are still on for the date, go the back channels. The EA can ring the buyer and see if they are going ahead


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    #59
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I would probably ask your EA to contact the buyer to see if they are still on for the date, go the back channels. The EA can ring the buyer and see if they are going ahead

    Yep we thought of that but honestly we are scared to ask. He has been positive all along and makes it will happen. But can you believe and an actioner.


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    #60
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blowin3 wrote: »
    Yep we thought of that but honestly we are scared to ask. He has been positive all along and makes it will happen. But can you believe and an actioner.

    Well if you ask him to find out at least you know better to know a.s.a.p


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    #61
    blowin3
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭blowin3


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well if you ask him to find out at least you know better to know a.s.a.p

    That's why the original post . We have asked many times but get same answer not to worry just wait and to see. So I asked the question here could they back out having both parties signed the contract .


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