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Attic conversion..cert of compliance!

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    #32
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

    We seem to be going in circles here!

    The nuts and bolts of it is that if works have been carried out to a house, which would include an attic conversion, to sell/convey the property, the Law Society and lending institutions require opinions on compliance, from a professional, in relation to (....relevant....) building regulations and planning permission/exemption. That's to give the property 'clean title'.

    If those opinions on compliance are not available, the purchasers solicitor has to qualify the title and highlight this to the lending institution. The lending institution then decides whether or not to loan the money to the purchaser, which in reality is at the lending institutions risk, as in effect they own the house of the duration of the mortgage/they want make sure they can easily offload if it all goes wrong!

    If you have a cash buyer/no lending institution involved, then no (real) issue....it's the buyers problem!


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    #33
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    Gumbo wrote: »
    It needs a Cert of Compliance with the relevant Building Regulations. We are only taking your word on it that the attic/loft has not been converted, can you provide a link to the public sale ad?

    If the attic does not meet habitable standards then it needs to clearly state storage use only and the structure needs to be certified to the requirements of Part A. Part B also comes into play to ensure adequate fire separation from the lower floors and to protect the stair enclosure, so fire doors at attic level and possibly self closing devices at the lower levels.

    Thanks. Are there scenarios where a storage conversion with fixed stairs does not have to comply with Part B?


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    #34
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    FileNotFound wrote: »
    Just a curiosity - if there is no fixed stairs does that make it storage by default?

    It means the space is not readily accessible so would mean its not an accessible room. Now, what I have seen in the past was people converting their attic space to bedrooms and putting in a pop down styra stairs. But once you went up there, it was fully finished, bed, ensuite the works.

    They failed that on access then, Part K (Stairs). They were enforced to erect a stairs with adequate fire provisions or return the space to original condition.


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    #35
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Thanks. Are there scenarios where a storage conversion with fixed stairs does not have to comply with Part B?

    Not in my opinion.
    Any of my experiences, the Judge will always sit on the side of the Enforcement Body, especially when it comes to fire safety.


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    #36
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,227 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Thanks. Are there scenarios where a storage conversion with fixed stairs does not have to comply with Part B?

    You have to comply with Part B in some regards concerning fireproofing of structure, protection of escape routes etc. How the works carried out in terms of the stairs and structure impact the original provisions for fire protection, means of escape etc. Certification is required that the works carried out either comply with Part B requirements, or haven't resulted in a new or greater contravention of the existing Part B design of the house prior to the works having taken place.

    If the solicitors are looking for an opinion of compliance for the works, you need an opinion of compliance for the works. They want someone to sign their name to the cert saying "All works carried out are in compliance with the relevant building regulations".


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    #37
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Another thing I have seen happen is staircase removed....problem solved! :)


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    #38
    Harpon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 166 ✭✭Harpon


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    We seem to be going in circles here!

    The nuts and bolts of it is that if works have been carried out to a house, which would include an attic conversion, to sell/convey the property, the Law Society and lending institutions require opinions on compliance, from a professional, in relation to (....relevant....) building regulations and planning permission/exemption. That's to give the property 'clean title'.

    If those opinions on compliance are not available, the purchasers solicitor has to qualify the title and highlight this to the lending institution. The lending institution then decides whether or not to loan the money to the purchaser, which in reality is at the lending institutions risk, as in effect they own the house of the duration of the mortgage/they want make sure they can easily offload if it all goes wrong!

    If you have a cash buyer/no lending institution involved, then no (real) issue....it's the buyers problem!

    I would find it hard to believe every house with an attic conversion being sold is by a cash buyer. So given half the country has had their attic converted, how come there isn’t a thread on here every week from someone saying they can’t sell there house as they can’t get a cert of compliance, unless they spend x amount bringing it up to standard? Every attic conversion I’ve seen on myhome or daft doesn’t have the fire safety doors etc. I’ve looked into getting my own attic converted and most companies actually talk you out of getting it converted to a “habitable” room as per planning.

    So whatever the answer is, people with attic conversions are clearly having no issue selling their homes to mortgage buyers.


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    #39
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Harpon wrote: »
    ....people with attic conversions are clearly having no issue selling their homes to mortgage buyers.

    That's great and good luck to them, but I would suggest many either have some form of 'sign off'/opinion on compliance from a professional or have had to obtain same for the sale of the property.

    Just to re-iterate....

    Have all paperwork/'sign offs' = clean title.

    Don't have all paperwork/'sign offs' = qualified title and lending institution will take view.

    Also just to highlight that what happened in the past may not be relevant now as there is more onus on the solicitors to obtain the necessary paperwork/'sign offs' for lending institutions.


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    #40
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Harpon wrote: »
    I would find it hard to believe every house with an attic conversion being sold is by a cash buyer. So given half the country has had their attic converted, how come there isn’t a thread on here every week from someone saying they can’t sell there house as they can’t get a cert of compliance, unless they spend x amount bringing it up to standard? Every attic conversion I’ve seen on myhome or daft doesn’t have the fire safety doors etc. I’ve looked into getting my own attic converted and most companies actually talk you out of getting it converted to a “habitable” room as per planning.

    So whatever the answer is, people with attic conversions are clearly having no issue selling their homes to mortgage buyers.

    Search the forum. There are many posts about it.

    The reason the company talk you out of fire doors is because it’s cheaper for them to provide standard doors and easier. Fire doors are near double the weight!

    The fact that companies mention it’s because of planning further proves they don’t know what they’re taking about and the building owner should engage independent professional.

    It’s nothing, absolutely nothing got to do with planning whether your company provides fire doors etc


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    #41
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    What is not clearly stated here is that these storage converted houses with come witb a qualified cert of compliance.
    Basically stating, works to attic are not habitable as building regulation, part F Ventilation -(ceiling height), part B Fire- (means of escape) are not complied with.

    If everything else is deemed ok as in structurally ok coming with engineers cert re structural alterations etc, a bank would likely accept such a title.
    If on the other hand the qualified cert had a list as long as your arm stating non compliance with each and every aspect of regs and non planning compliant also, well that is a different scenario.
    In short pretty much any property will be able to obtain a cert - the content of the cert however can vary greatly.


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    #42
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    mickdw wrote: »
    What is not clearly stated here is that these storage converted houses with come witb a qualified cert of compliance.
    Basically stating, works to attic are not habitable as building regulation, part F Ventilation -(ceiling height), part B Fire- (means of escape) are not complied with.

    If everything else is deemed ok as in structurally ok coming with engineers cert re structural alterations etc, a bank would likely accept such a title.
    If on the other hand the qualified cert had a list as long as your arm stating non compliance with each and every aspect of regs and non planning compliant also, well that is a different scenario.
    In short pretty much any property will be able to obtain a cert - the content of the cert however can vary greatly.

    So are you suggesting these storage conversions with fixed staircase do not need to comply with part B regs (fire regs) on the basis they are signed off as storage only?

    I'm hoping that's the case, and that the presence of a fixed stairs doesn't automatically mean part B regs must be complied with.


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    #43
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    So are you suggesting these storage conversions with fixed staircase do not need to comply with part B regs (fire regs) on the basis they are signed off as storage only?

    I'm hoping that's the case, and that the presence of a fixed stairs doesn't automatically mean part B regs must be complied with.

    In my opinion they wouldnt and often dont comply with aspects of Part B re escape and part F re ceiling height etc. Going into 3rd storey though, i would be looking for other aspects to be complied with even when officially storage and if you get into the situation where there is an ensuite up there, id be having nothing to do with it.


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    #44
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    mickdw wrote: »
    In my opinion they wouldnt and often dont comply with aspects of Part B re escape and part F re ceiling height etc. Going into 3rd storey though, i would be looking for other aspects to be complied with even when officially storage and if you get into the situation where there is an ensuite up there, id be having nothing to do with it.

    I agree they generally wouldn't comply with part B, but are they required to, given they are storage (with fixed stairs)?


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    #45
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,227 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    I agree they generally wouldn't comply with part B, but are they required to, given they are storage (with fixed stairs)?

    You're asking a question that can't be fully answered because it depends on the existing building, existing Part B compliance, and if the works carried out either comply with Part B but also whether or not they impact on the existing Part B compliance.

    Regardless of the use of the space, at the very minimum all works carried out should have no new or greater contravention of compliance with the building regulations. So you could still be asked for an opinion on compliance with building regulations stating that the works carried out are in compliance with building regulations in that they haven't negatively impacted the existing compliance of the house.

    A similar example is exempted developments. You could have an extension built onto the house that is an exempted development. But when selling, the bank/solicitors could still request a cert of compliance with planning stating that it complies with planning regulations by not requiring planning permission.

    So yes, you need to comply with Part B even if it's storage space, by not affecting the existing Part B compliance.


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    #46
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,994 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    I agree they generally wouldn't comply with part B, but are they required to, given they are storage (with fixed stairs)?

    depends on the use


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    #47
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    depends on the use

    Storage.


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    #48
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Storage.

    Show us a pic.
    From the ad.


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    #49
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Show us a pic.
    From the ad.

    Very similar to this
    https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/57-parkmore-drive-terenure-dublin-6w/4447368


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    #50
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Window visible in photo of attic doesn’t comply (tgd B) it’s not clear if doors comply in terms of fire seals at all levels. Not clear if AOV is provided.

    There is a tv & office set up so on that basis, I’d expect to see part B complied with.

    haven’t considered other regs.


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    #51
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    BryanF wrote: »
    Window visible in photo of attic doesn’t comply (tgd B) it’s not clear if doors comply in terms of fire seals at all levels. Not clear if AOV is provided.

    There is a tv & office set up so on that basis, I’d expect to see part B complied with.

    haven’t considered other regs.

    Yes but the question is does it need to comply if its only being used for storage ( by the new owner). i.e. can it be certified as compliant as a storage only room?


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    #52
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,227 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Yes but the question is does it need to comply if its only being used for storage ( by the new owner). i.e. can it be certified as compliant as a storage only room?

    Personally I wouldn't consider it as storage given the level of finishes and likely intent of construction. People don't go to that much effort and expense just for storage space.

    It's not just about what the owner intends to use it as, it's about what it could be used as. That area in the Myhome link could far too easily be used as a habitable space and therefore should comply with Part B requirements for such.


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    #53
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    Penn wrote: »
    Personally I wouldn't consider it as storage given the level of finishes and likely intent of construction. People don't go to that much effort and expense just for storage space.

    It's not just about what the owner intends to use it as, it's about what it could be used as. That area in the Myhome link could far too easily be used as a habitable space and therefore should comply with Part B requirements for such.

    OK, but personal opinions aside, could a conversion such as this be certified as compliant as a storage space? Does it come down to the personal opinion of the certifying individual (i.e. its a grey area) of is it black or white?


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    #54
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,227 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    OK, but personal opinions aside, could a conversion such as this be certified as compliant as a storage space? Does it come down to the personal opinion of the certifying individual (i.e. its a grey area) of is it black or white?

    The certificate of compliance is actually an 'Opinion on Compliance'. So yes it comes down to the personal opinion of the certifying individual. Their interpretation and opinion of the situation. Some might certify it, others wouldn't. As a professional who could, I am saying if I was engaged to certify that as storage space only, I wouldn't.


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    #55
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    Penn wrote: »
    The certificate of compliance is actually an 'Opinion on Compliance'. So yes it comes down to the personal opinion of the certifying individual. Their interpretation and opinion of the situation. Some might certify it, others wouldn't. As a professional who could, I am saying if I was engaged to certify that as storage space only, I wouldn't.

    Thanks , that's cleared it up.


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    #56
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Very similar to this
    https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/57-parkmore-drive-terenure-dublin-6w/4447368

    Room is readily accessible.
    Escape window looks too high.
    No signs of smoke detection in attic room.
    No door at all separating it from the stair core so it’s comprising the escape from the down stairs bedrooms as if a fire starts up there, smoke and fire can enter the escape stairs easily. This would be a blatant greater contravention to the original house design.

    I see a smoke detection at the top of the stairs.

    As a surveyor looking at that for a purchaser I would highlight the breaches and recommend the attic be separated from the floor below in accordance with the regulations. If I was asked to pit a cert on it, I’d refuse unless some works carried out to at least bring it towards compliance.

    It’s not as ifs it’s a store room up there, it’s a finished, plastered, accessible space in my opinion.

    It has also turned a 2 storey house into a 3 storey house.


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    #57
    cojomo2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    Penn wrote: »
    The certificate of compliance is actually an 'Opinion on Compliance'. So yes it comes down to the personal opinion of the certifying individual. Their interpretation and opinion of the situation. Some might certify it, others wouldn't. As a professional who could, I am saying if I was engaged to certify that as storage space only, I wouldn't.

    Just a related question, who is qualified to provide a certificate of opinion on compliance, a surveyor, structural engineer, either? Thanks


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    #58
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Just a related question, who is qualified to provide a certificate of opinion on compliance, a surveyor, structural engineer, either? Thanks

    Architect
    Engineer
    Building surveyor
    Technologist

    Once they have the relevant PI to offer the opinion, and the Pi will be based on them have the necessary qualifications, experience and competence to offer the service.

    So it means your average handyman can’t just buy a pi policy and offer opinions, same goes for chippies, sparks etc, while they are professional in their own right, you need the relevant experience and qualification to offer the cert.


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    #59
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Architect
    Engineer
    Building surveyor
    Technologist

    Once they have the relevant PI to offer the opinion, and the Pi will be based on them have the necessary qualifications, experience and competence to offer the service.

    So it means your average handyman can’t just buy a pi policy and offer opinions, same goes for chippies, sparks etc, while they are professional in their own right, you need the relevant experience and qualification to offer the cert.

    And as you correctly state, the PI is related to the professional title/qualification so unlike some trades who can restart with a different name on the side of the van tomorrow morning, we are stuck with and have to stand by our record. This very much preserves the integrity of the system imo.
    You get the odd fella that will sign anything but invariably they are out of business and uninsurable after about 3 years.


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    #60
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    You can have a structural survey that shows your attic was built in compliance with regs (RSJ, materials, insulation, etc) but of course not sell as habitable space.

    But you can sell it. Did it two years ago... "three bed with attic conversion"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWPSflClAnM


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    #61
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    3DataModem wrote: »
    You can have a structural survey that shows your attic was built in compliance with regs (RSJ, materials, insulation, etc) but of course not sell as habitable space.

    But you can sell it. Did it two years ago... "three bed with attic conversion"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWPSflClAnM

    At least yours had a door to,separate the new room from the escape stairs.
    But the irony of it being non habitable and you had the kids bed up there is :D


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