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What to expect in the Boilerhouse

  • 22-06-2017 10:29pm
    #1
    JaegerJak
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭


    Hey I'm going to the Boilerhouse for the first time tomorrow. I'm meeting up with someone, I have no idea what could happen. When I walk in is there a reception or a gate like in a club or is it like a narrow hall like you see in seedy movies. Is the whole place a sauna? Is there private rooms where we could go off to? Will other men just come up to me and start touching me without asking?

    Sorry if these questions has been asked before but I couldn't find these exact answers on the board. I will appreciate any heads up so thanks.
    Tagged:


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    JaegerJak wrote: »
    Hey I'm going to the Boilerhouse for the first time tomorrow. I'm meeting up with someone, I have no idea what could happen. When I walk in is there a reception or a gate like in a club or is it like a narrow hall like you see in seedy movies. Is the whole place a sauna? Is there private rooms where we could go off to? Will other men just come up to me and start touching me without asking?

    Sorry if these questions has been asked before but I couldn't find these exact answers on the board. I will appreciate any heads up so thanks.

    PM me if you want.


  • #3
    imme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Website???

    The Boiler house appears to have a website OP

    Isn't that unusual 😉

    Just had a look

    It says standard entry is 'x' price

    Unwaged entry is 'y' price

    Then it says unwaged doesn't mean someone in receipt of a pension
    That made me laugh


  • #4
    Heebie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Heebie


    You'll see lots of obnoxious attitude if you're not a gorgeous twink under 25 or hung like an elephant.

    But as long as you don't let that faze you...

    The entry Hall is long and skinny where you arrange for entry. This may seem seedy or creepy, but it's a good design from a security standpoint.

    One inside, there are nice parts, seedy parts, and other parts.
    Whether you enjoy yourself will depend mainly on your own attitude and how thick your skin is.
    If you're meeting someone there, hopefully you'll get on and have fun in a fairly safe environment.
    If you don't get on, there's lots of other men there, or you can just relax and enjoy the saunas, the jacuzzi, and lots of eye candy.
    There is a lot to be said for being able to relax around a bunch of naked and nearly naked men of various shapes, sizes and colors.

    I hope you have a good time.


  • #5
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Heebie wrote: »
    You'll see lots of obnoxious attitude if you're not a gorgeous twink under 25 or hung like an elephant.

    But as long as you don't let that faze you...

    What a rather odd "observation". In the times I have frequented the BH I have never seen that "attitude".
    Heebie wrote: »
    The entry Hall is long and skinny where you arrange for entry. This may seem seedy or creepy, but it's a good design from a security standpoint.

    One inside, there are nice parts, seedy parts, and other parts.
    Whether you enjoy yourself will depend mainly on your own attitude and how thick your skin is.
    If you're meeting someone there, hopefully you'll get on and have fun in a fairly safe environment.
    If you don't get on, there's lots of other men there, or you can just relax and enjoy the saunas, the jacuzzi, and lots of eye candy.
    There is a lot to be said for being able to relax around a bunch of naked and nearly naked men of various shapes, sizes and colors.

    I hope you have a good time.

    If ever there was a description to put one off its the above.
    Your mention of the word "seedy" is odd. What is "seedy"

    Are you are expecting people to sit around reading Mills and Boon and drinking tea?

    For goodness sake,People go into the Boilerhouse to meet someone and have to sex, just like you did.


  • #6
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    As there any point in going during the day?


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  • #7
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    As there any point in going during the day?


    Yea why not


  • #8
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Yea why not

    I've heard it's all men in their 50s and 60s which I'd have no interest in


  • #9
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I've heard it's all men in their 50s and 60s which I'd have no interest in

    forget about what you "heard" , go in for yourself and see whos there.


  • #10
    rochey84
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭rochey84


    I always love it when I see a thread about the Boilerhouse on here, so many people calling it hell on earth and sleazy af etc, now either one of 2 things is happening here, they've been and experienced all this and it wasn't for them, or they heard all this and like to judge others without experiencing it. Bottom line here is if you experienced it and didn't enjoy it state that and let the OP make up his own mind and if you have only "heard" what it's like STFU and let people who have experienced it give opinions.


  • #11
    reason vs religion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭reason vs religion


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    forget about what you "heard" , go in for yourself and see whos there.

    How is this good advice?!


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  • #12
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    reason vs religion wrote: »
    How is this good advice?!

    It's the best kind.


  • #13
    reason vs religion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭reason vs religion


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    It's the best kind.

    The best kind of advice is, "Find out for yourself"? Every film review: find out for yourself? Every travel guide: find out for yourself? Every medical consultation: find out for yourself?


  • #14
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    It's reflective of the fact that there's so many wide ranging opinions on the place.

    "I've heard this..." "I've heard that..." "I've heard something else..."

    Maybe you should stop worrying about what you've heard and, if you're interested, go in for yourself and see who's there.

    It's perfectly fine advice, all things considered. Leaving again if you don't like what you find is always an option.


  • #15
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Went in this morning. Not a bad experience but I feel really dirty even after a long shower


  • #16
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Went in this morning. Not a bad experience but I feel really dirty even after a long shower

    Why so ?
    Have you been with guys before ?


  • #17
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Why so ?
    Have you been with guys before ?
    Getting anal from a stranger just made me feel a little manky


  • #18
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Getting anal from a stranger just made me feel a little manky

    But youve been with guys before I take it ?
    Why did you decide to have anal if it was going to make you feel a little manky?

    To be honest most of us who have had encounters with guys for the first time often feel "dirty", Its normal .

    I remember the first time I was ever with a guy I came home and had a shower immediately and like you felt a little "dirty" but it passes.


  • #19
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Why did you decide to have anal if it was going to make you feel a little manky?

    Ah don't go there.

    Gael23 you had an experience anyway and however you feel about it after the fact I assume the guy was someone you were comfortable with at the time anyway, not someone in their 50s or 60s.

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #20
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Ten of Swords wrote: »
    Ah don't go there.

    Gael23 you had an experience anyway and however you feel about it after the fact I assume the guy was someone you were comfortable with at the time anyway, not someone in their 50s or 60s.

    Maybe he's comfortable with guys in their 50s or 60s?


  • #21
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Maybe he's comfortable with guys in their 50s or 60s?
    Comfortable, quite possibly. But he is not interested in them as sexual partners.


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  • #22
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Not sure what age he was to be honest. Older than I would have liked for sure, maybe that's why I didn't enjoy it so much. Wasn't too aroused by him shall we say.


  • #23
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Not sure what age he was to be honest. Older than I would have liked for sure, maybe that's why I didn't enjoy it so much. Wasn't too aroused by him shall we say.

    So why hook up with him in the first place then ?


  • #24
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    So why hook up with him in the first place then ?

    The majority of guys I know who.go to the BH will pick the least worst option if their ideal isn't there. Maybe it's because they paid for entry but they seem to believe they have to hook up.


  • #25
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    So why hook up with him in the first place then ?

    You recommended people experience it for themselves rather than taking someone else's word for it but now seem confused how someone might find the experience negative, as if it's their fault for not knowing it would be upfront.

    It takes a lot of maturity and experience to know what you're into and have the confidence to walk away from what you are not. Personally the idea of having sex with randomers has always been something that didn't appeal to me. Some of my friends learnt that the hard way, others like that life.


  • #26
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Manion wrote: »
    You recommended people experience it for themselves rather than taking someone else's word for it but now seem confused how someone might find the experience negative, as if it's their fault for not knowing it would be upfront.

    It takes a lot of maturity and experience to know what you're into and have the confidence to walk away from what you are not. Personally the idea of having sex with randomers has always been something that didn't appeal to me. Some of my friends learnt that the hard way, others like that life.

    If I could thank this 100 times I would. I went for sex like everyone else in there but the experience showed me that I need to do that with someone I know and trust. I went in the afternoon so my ideal was unlikely to be there. Maybe if I tried on a Saturday night it would, I don't know.


  • #27
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    The majority of guys I know who.go to the BH will pick the least worst option if their ideal isn't there. Maybe it's because they paid for entry but they seem to believe they have to hook up.

    When I went there many a year ago now,if i didnt see anyone I wanted to hook up with or didnt like what I saw, I left empty handed ( as it were ,lol)


  • #28
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Manion wrote: »
    You recommended people experience it for themselves rather than taking someone else's word for it but now seem confused how someone might find the experience negative, as if it's their fault for not knowing it would be upfront.

    It takes a lot of maturity and experience to know what you're into and have the confidence to walk away from what you are not. Personally the idea of having sex with randomers has always been something that didn't appeal to me. Some of my friends learnt that the hard way, others like that life.

    No, I asked why did he go with someone he didnt like or want to be with .
    As i stated above I have gone to the BH before and left because there wasnt anyone i was in to.


  • #29
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    If I could thank this 100 times I would. I went for sex like everyone else in there but the experience showed me that I need to do that with someone I know and trust. I went in the afternoon so my ideal was unlikely to be there. Maybe if I tried on a Saturday night it would, I don't know.

    I have often gone on a Sat afternoon and met some really nice guys. It doesnt really hold that if you go on a sat night you might find your ideal guy.
    Yes you might , but you might not also,there is no right time as it were.
    Obviously on a fri or Sat night it will be busier so who knows. ....


  • #30
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    I have often gone on a Sat afternoon and met some really nice guys. It doesnt really hold that if you go on a sat night you might find your ideal guy.
    Yes you might , but you might not also,there is no right time as it were.
    Obviously on a fri or Sat night it will be busier so who knows. ....
    Good point, I was thinking on the lines of when people aren't working there's bound to be more choice. I know that doesn't mean my ideal would be there.
    I'm sort of feeling like I should get tested after being there too.


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  • #31
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Good point, I was thinking on the lines of when people aren't working there's bound to be more choice. I know that doesn't mean my ideal would be there.
    I'm sort of feeling like I should get tested after being there too.

    It's definitely busier on a Saturday night and there's a wide range of guys.

    Did you do something particularly unsafe? A guy in the BH is no more likely to have something than a randomers off Grindr. Don't buy into a an internal shame filled narrative that it's an inherently dirty place.

    However, if you had bareback sex you should go to an ER asap. Whether that's with a guy from the boiler house or anyone else.


  • #32
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Condoms don't protect against all stis


  • #33
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    No, I asked why did he go with someone he didnt like or want to be with .
    As i stated above I have gone to the BH before and left because there wasnt anyone i was in to.

    I addressed your points mate. Well done you. Perhaps you are too old to remember what's its like to be young and inexperienced.


  • #34
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Manion wrote: »
    I addressed your points mate. Well done you. Perhaps you are too old to remember what's its like to be young and inexperienced.

    Mod - No need to make ageist comments. Please dont in future

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #35
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    It's definitely busier on a Saturday night and there's a wide range of guys.

    Did you do something particularly unsafe? A guy in the BH is no more likely to have something than a randomers off Grindr. Don't buy into a an internal shame filled narrative that it's an inherently dirty place.

    However, if you had bareback sex you should go to an ER asap. Whether that's with a guy from the boiler house or anyone else.
    I know what your saying that most of the guys are likely clean but when you don't know and trust someone I gives a doubt. Will look into getting tested but don't really want to go to my GP about it, you mention ER?


  • #36
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Guide Clinic (St James Hospital)
    http://www.guideclinic.ie/sti-clinic


    Gay Men's Health Service (Baggot Street)
    http://hse.ie/eng/services/list/5/sexhealth/gmhs/clinics/

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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  • #37
    fluffybiscuits
    Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭fluffybiscuits


    Heebie wrote: »
    You'll see lots of obnoxious attitude if you're not a gorgeous twink under 25 or hung like an elephant.

    But as long as you don't let that faze you...

    The entry Hall is long and skinny where you arrange for entry. This may seem seedy or creepy, but it's a good design from a security standpoint.

    One inside, there are nice parts, seedy parts, and other parts.
    Whether you enjoy yourself will depend mainly on your own attitude and how thick your skin is.
    If you're meeting someone there, hopefully you'll get on and have fun in a fairly safe environment.
    If you don't get on, there's lots of other men there, or you can just relax and enjoy the saunas, the jacuzzi, and lots of eye candy.
    There is a lot to be said for being able to relax around a bunch of naked and nearly naked men of various shapes, sizes and colors.

    I hope you have a good time.


    My experience with it too

    I tend to head on a Friday afternoon or Sunday afternoon every few months. The twinks tend to congregate on the weekend nights and its mostly just older lads or bears (which Im into) outside of that I personally find!. There is also Inn on the Liffey but I have never beeen so I cant vouch for it.

    During the week is better I find...Tues or Wed night is very quiet but its more relaxed

    As Heebie said above just throw your towel around your shoulder and wander around and chill out. You can have a coffee in the cafe and read the paper, sit in the jacuzzi (once it doesnt look like porroidge - just jkidding!). Go in with no expectations and just dont take it personal if a guy knocks you back!


  • #38
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,547 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Will look into getting tested but don't really want to go to my GP about it, you mention ER?

    For PEP, if bareback was done


  • #39
    wordofwarning
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭wordofwarning


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I know what your saying that most of the guys are likely clean but when you don't know and trust someone I gives a doubt. Will look into getting tested but don't really want to go to my GP about it, you mention ER?

    I am going to hazard a guess that you have never had an STI test before. Am I correct?

    You should go to the GMHS and get the hep A & B vaccine. If you are under 26, you should get the HPV vaccine too. You sound like you need to be educated on PEP, so ask them about that too.

    The GMHS is just for gay men(well MSM). They have heard it all and honestly will not judge when getting tested.


  • #40
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I know what your saying that most of the guys are likely clean but when you don't know and trust someone I gives a doubt. Will look into getting tested but don't really want to go to my GP about it, you mention ER?

    I meant am emergency department only in the case you had bareback anal sex in which case (as far as I'm aware) you should try and get PEP as soon as possible.

    Sure as another poster said there are STIs that condoms don't protect against but you're no more likely to catch anything in the boiler house than you would from any casual partner.

    If you're particularly worried, go to an STI clinic in a few weeks to get checked for the non-HIV infections. And get your hepatitis jabs. You might also be able to get a HPV jab.

    But if you're going to be having regular casual sex be that from casual nightclub/Grindr hookups or going to saunas or sex clubs then just make sure your anal sex is always protected and go to a clinic to get checked a reasonable number of times per year (personally I think twice a year is fine).

    The point I'm making is that if you basically did nothing more than suck and unprotected dick in the bh, you probably don't have anuything and if you do its very treatable. By all means get checked out, but if you're going to be having regular casual sex, like once a month or more, it's not really feasible to go to the clinic after each encounter. I wouldn't treat a safe encounter in the BH as somehow more dirty than a safe encounter with someone from the George.


  • #41
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Sexual Health Services in Waterford

    Waterford
    Regional Hospital, Waterford City, 051 842 646 (By appointment only)

    http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/5/sexhealth/


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  • #42
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    wordofwarning wrote: »
    I am going to hazard a guess that you have never had an STI test before. Am I correct?

    You should go to the GMHS and get the hep A & B vaccine. If you are under 26, you should get the HPV vaccine too. You sound like you need to be educated on PEP, so ask them about that too.

    The GMHS is just for gay men(well MSM). They have heard it all and honestly will not judge when getting tested.

    Yes never been tested before but this was my first such encounter so never felt the need to.


  • #43
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Yes never been tested before but this was my first such encounter so never felt the need to.

    I would hazard a guess and say you will be ok . However as a sexually active gay man you should go for a regular check up.


  • #44
    wordofwarning
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭wordofwarning


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Yes never been tested before but this was my first such encounter so never felt the need to.

    You are the textbook definition of someone who should have gotten the HPV vaccine ie someone before they had any sexual encounters. You need to get the vaccines regardless of the number of your partners.

    You ideally need to get the HPV vaccine now ie before more partners.


  • #45
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Tried ringing and it says leave your name & number and they will call you back. Is that normal?


  • #46
    wordofwarning
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭wordofwarning


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Tried ringing and it says leave your name & number and they will call you back. Is that normal?

    Tried ringing who? The GMHS have limited hours. At times you will struggle to find someone to contact


  • #47
    Deasy15324
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Deasy15324


    Hi guys, I am going to BH tomorrow, not expecting anything - me and a friend (both late 20s) are going just to see what its like more than anything but my question is how do I make it clear if someone wants something but I dont.
    I dont want to come off as an asshole but I dont want to do something I am not comfortable with. Is it acceptable to say "No Thanks" and move away from the person?


  • #48
    imme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Deasy15324 wrote: »
    Hi guys, I am going to BH tomorrow, not expecting anything - me and a friend (both late 20s) are going just to see what its like more than anything but my question is how do I make it clear if someone wants something but I dont.
    I dont want to come off as an asshole but I dont want to do something I am not comfortable with. Is it acceptable to say "No Thanks" and move away from the person?

    I think you have to make it clear OP

    Why would you think you'd look like an asshole by not making clear and otherwise you'd be doing something you don't want to do


  • #49
    Heebie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Heebie


    Deasy15324 wrote:
    Hi guys, I am going to BH tomorrow, not expecting anything - me and a friend (both late 20s) are going just to see what its like more than anything but my question is how do I make it clear if someone wants something but I dont. I dont want to come off as an asshole but I dont want to do something I am not comfortable with. Is it acceptable to say "No Thanks" and move away from the person?


    The way that seems most used is looking away from someone. Generally holding their gaze tends to mean you're interested (or that they are)
    Often, the looking away will be accompanied by a look that says "how dare you even think it's give you the time of day" quite sadly.
    Using words, and only accepting information as words, is definitely at your own discretion.
    If someone is polite "no, thanks" should do. If someone doesn't seem to want to take no for an answer, you might choose your words with less consideration, and speak louder.
    If he persists, you can contact a member of staff.
    Your safety is important, and the staff should know how to handle it.

    Hopefully you had a good time!


  • #50
    Deasy15324
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Deasy15324


    imme wrote: »
    I think you have to make it clear OP

    Why would you think you'd look like an asshole by not making clear and otherwise you'd be doing something you don't want to do

    Dunno I thought there might be some sort of gay sauna etiquite that I'm not familiar with. As most lads go there for sex if I reject someone advances is he gonna think "what did you come here for then". Obviously I'm not going to do something I don't want to do. Just wanted to ask anyone who goes regularly is there a specific way to reject someone or the opposit is there a specific way of telling someone they are a God and you want to ravage them.


  • #51
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deasy15324 wrote: »
    Hi guys, I am going to BH tomorrow, not expecting anything - me and a friend (both late 20s) are going just to see what its like more than anything but my question is how do I make it clear if someone wants something but I dont.
    I dont want to come off as an asshole but I dont want to do something I am not comfortable with. Is it acceptable to say "No Thanks" and move away from the person?

    Of course. Yes. If you are not interested just say no thanks and walk away.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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