Days of three-bed semis in Dublin "are over"

Dublinflyer · 18-01-2021 3:47pm #1

Interesting article in the IT this morning where the Dublin City Planner says that the days of 2 story houses are no more and it's all high density housing from now on that people want. It's behind a paywall.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/days-of-three-bed-semis-in-dublin-are-over-as-high-density-housing-plans-take-hold-1.4460746

Is it just me but given the shift to working from home at least some of the time that a lot of people will doing is this not an opinion that is a bit outdated now and they are creating another mess of tiny one bedroom apartments with no space that anyone with families won't want? Or will everyone with family's move out of the city and leave it to all the single people out there?

endacl · 18-01-2021 3:50pm

High density housing isn't what people want. It's what people can afford.

Dizzyblonde · 18-01-2021 4:15pm

Mod note:
I've moved this to the Accommodation & Property forum, it's much better suited to here.

mrslancaster · 18-01-2021 4:44pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

....Is it just me but given the shift to working from home at least some of the time that a lot of people will doing is this not an opinion that is a bit outdated now and they are creating another mess of tiny one bedroom apartments with no space that anyone with families won't want? Or will everyone with family's move out of the city and leave it to all the single people out there?

It probably means that existing semis, detached, or any house with a garden in the city or suburbs will get so expensive that nobody except wealthy people will be able to buy them. not giving people much choice if all that is available is apartments when they want or need to stay near the city for any number of reasons.

c.p.w.g.w · 18-01-2021 4:47pm

My uncle has a house in London...all terraced 3 story houses with nice back gardens...the houses are narrow, but quiet spacious and very well layed out to maximize space

Allinall · 18-01-2021 4:49pm

Apartments don't have to be tiny one-beds.

They can build bigger apartments. just stack them higher than you can with houses.

seamus · 18-01-2021 5:01pm

endacl wrote: »

High density housing isn't what people want. It's what people can afford.

To be fair, the article doesn't actually say that people want high-density housing. I'm not sure where the OP got that from.

It says that people still want a two-storey house with 3 or 4 bedrooms and a garden front and back, but that's no longer sustainable.

Also developers can make more money and cram more houses in by building 4 bedrooms over 3 floors and only providing a back garden, so that's what they build.

Claw Hammer · 18-01-2021 5:12pm

If you look at an aerial photograph of a Dublin suburb like Mount Merrion, you will see an enormous amount of green space. It was built as a garden village, there are 3-bed houses with a garage at the side, a front garden and a very long back garden. It is extremely low-density. Many of the houses are occupied by one or two people. Allowing more such housing schemes to be built will be extremely wasteful of scarce land. Beside Mount Merrion, on the Stillorgan Road, there are a number of apartment blocks. If you take four or five of the largest blocks of apartments and add up the footprint in terms of the amount of land occupied, they would all fit on one road in Mount Merrion and a house as many people as live in the entire suburb of Mount Merrion.

Pixel Eater · 18-01-2021 5:15pm

This is a good thing. Ireland has by far the smallest share of apartments in it's housing stock in Europe, about 4%; by contract Spain's housing stock is around 70% apartments. We can't keep building more urban sprawl eating up the most fertile land in the country, this is partly the reason we have a housing issue and poor transport.

There is a new housing development in Glasnevin quite close to the canal of large 4 and 5 bed houses; seems pretty inefficient use of land to me, could've fit far more people in the same plot with apartments.

Samsonsmasher · 18-01-2021 5:16pm

High rise apartments privately owned and rented without the state fooling around with regulations high taxes rent controls and social housing etc would solve most of our problems relatively quickly. There's a demand and government needs to get out of the way and let the market provide for that demand. It's very simple.

If government has no business running airlines or washing powder companies then they have no business interfering in the housing market either.

Granadino · 18-01-2021 5:17pm

Build apartment complexes like on the continent. Simple as.

bennyineire · 18-01-2021 5:18pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

My uncle has a house in London...all terraced 3 story houses with nice back gardens...the houses are narrow, but quiet spacious and very well layed out to maximize space

How old is the house and what part of London is it in?

Marcusm · 18-01-2021 5:20pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Interesting article in the IT this morning where the Dublin City Planner says that the days of 2 story houses are no more and it's all high density housing from now on that people want. It's behind a paywall.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/days-of-three-bed-semis-in-dublin-are-over-as-high-density-housing-plans-take-hold-1.4460746

Is it just me but given the shift to working from home at least some of the time that a lot of people will doing is this not an opinion that is a bit outdated now and they are creating another mess of tiny one bedroom apartments with no space that anyone with families won't want? Or will everyone with family's move out of the city and leave it to all the single people out there?

I don't think that they are suggesting that they be repalced with one bed apartments. It's more a point that two storey buildings are a shocking waste of land in cities. A big issue in Ireland is that the land close to the centre of Dublin is covered in 2 storey houses (IU write from Rathmines) so that the land further out needs to have a minimum of 4-6 stories whiuch some would regard as counterintuitive.

3 bedroom apartments are common elsewhere but have not been common in Ireland or they havebeen small. There will not be a shift to apartment living if it is done via shoeboxes. It has to be part of the mix to balance out all the semis!

Dublinflyer · 18-01-2021 5:22pm

I guess the point I was trying to make, really badly, is that high density housing is not always the answer as we can't seem to do it right and put in poor local facilities for people to use. I don't think you can compare us to a lot of Europe as we don't have the same climate allowing people to spend as much time outdoors. I think it depends on what you define as sustainable. Do you want to build housing stock that is only suited to a couple with no kids or larger homes that work for families. I dunno what the answer is, but this idea of just building apartments all the time does not seem sustainable to me.

Samsonsmasher · 18-01-2021 5:25pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

I guess the point I was trying to make, really badly, is that high density housing is not always the answer as we can't seem to do it right and put in poor local facilities for people to use. I don't think you can compare us to a lot of Europe as we don't have the same climate allowing people to spend as much time outdoors. I think it depends on what you define as sustainable. Do you want to build housing stock that is only suited to a couple with no kids or larger homes that work for families. I dunno what the answer is, but this idea of just building apartments all the time does not seem sustainable to me.

Don't buy one or rent one if you don't want to.
If builders can profit from them from building them for developers who want to sell them or rent them out and they satisfy demand out there then get out of their way.
We need a housing supply fast we need affordability we have the people ready to build them developers ready to profit and we have buyers and renters willing to pay.

L1011 · 18-01-2021 5:28pm

The extensive built stock of semi-Ds that's already there isn't going to up and go; just like those mentioned in London - and this isn't really news. You can't get high enough densities to even get permission for semi-Ds beside high capacity transit corridors already.

c.p.w.g.w · 18-01-2021 5:30pm

bennyineire wrote: »

How old is the house and what part of London is it in?

Built in the early 80's, it's near Lewisham I think...

His done work over the years on it, I think his house footprint is 20% smaller than my house, yet has 30-35% More sq footage within the house

Pixel Eater · 18-01-2021 5:31pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

I guess the point I was trying to make, really badly, is that high density housing is not always the answer as we can't seem to do it right and put in poor local facilities for people to use. I don't think you can compare us to a lot of Europe as we don't have the same climate allowing people to spend as much time outdoors. I think it depends on what you define as sustainable. Do you want to build housing stock that is only suited to a couple with no kids or larger homes that work for families. I dunno what the answer is, but this idea of just building apartments all the time does not seem sustainable to me.

Building sprawling estates like what we've been doing is totally unsustainable. And lots of apartments in Scandinavian cities and they'd have an even colder climate than us. People are generally having fewer children so I'd question the need for building so many huge houses; no reason you can't raise a family in large apartments.

Caranica · 18-01-2021 5:32pm

My sister has a 3 bed semi with front and back gardens in D16. I have a 3 bed duplex with communal gardens I don't need to look after and way more internal space, plus an extra bathroom, than she does. I'm much happier with what I have.

Claw Hammer · 18-01-2021 5:35pm

L1011 wrote: »

The extensive built stock of semi-Ds that's already there isn't going to up and go; just like those mentioned in London - and this isn't really news. You can't get high enough densities to even get permission for semi-Ds beside high capacity transit corridors already.

It may become economic to buy existing semi-ds and demolish them in order to create sites for more intensive development. It was done in a few places during Celtic Tiger times. In one cul de sac in Foxrock the owners collective negotiated to sell all the house to a developer with each owner getting about double what would have been the market value for the sale of an individual house.

listermint · 18-01-2021 5:35pm

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Don't buy one or rent one if you don't want to.
If builders can profit from them from building them for developers who want to sell them or rent them out and they satisfy demand out there then get out of their way.
We need a housing supply fast we need affordability we have the people ready to build them developers ready to profit and we have buyers and renters willing to pay.

You don't live in one , do you.

PokeHerKing · 18-01-2021 5:39pm

Caranica wrote: »

My sister has a 3 bed semi with front and back gardens in D16. I have a 3 bed duplex with communal gardens I don't need to look after and way more internal space, plus an extra bathroom, than she does. I'm much happier with what I have.

Horses for courses etc. I love maintaining my garden and the thoughts of sunning myself or bbqing with strangers wouldn't appeal to me but thats why its good that we have a variety of options available as not everyone wants or needs the same setup.

Dublinflyer · 18-01-2021 5:42pm

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Don't buy one or rent one if you don't want to.
If builders can profit from them from building them for developers who want to sell them or rent them out and they satisfy demand out there then get out of their way.
We need a housing supply fast we need affordability we have the people ready to build them developers ready to profit and we have buyers and renters willing to pay.

Never said I did want to buy one or get in anyones way. We needed fast housing in the past so the Ballymun towers were built, and that went well. I just fear that they would be allowed to build these with no thought for the people who live in them and it's only about profit. That's not sustainable either. I get that apartments are the way of the future, they 100% make the most sense but there should be more taken into consideration than just fitting in the numbers.

retalivity · 18-01-2021 5:42pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

This is a good thing. Ireland has by far the smallest share of apartments in it's housing stock in Europe, about 4%; by contract Spain's housing stock is around 70% apartments. We can't keep building more urban sprawl eating up the most fertile land in the country, this is partly the reason we have a housing issue and poor transport.

There is a new housing development in Glasnevin quite close to the canal of large 4 and 5 bed houses; seems pretty inefficient use of land to me, could've fit far more people in the same plot with apartments.

They're selling for 8-900k each though, and a lot of NIMBYism out there made sure no high-rise apts would be built.

Claw Hammer · 18-01-2021 5:46pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Never said I did want to buy one or get in anyones way. We needed fast housing in the past so the Ballymun towers were built, and that went well. .

Ballymun wasn't built properly according to the design and the whole project was never finished. people laughed at the Zoe blocks of the 80s and 90s but now they are in high demand.

micosoft · 18-01-2021 5:49pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

they are creating another mess of tiny one bedroom apartments with no space that anyone with families won't want? Or will everyone with family's move out of the city and leave it to all the single people out there?

Who said they will be tiny one bed apartments? There are lots of options between a three bed semi and a studio apartment.... how do you think the rest of Europe lives?

Taylor365 · 18-01-2021 5:49pm

Build up, stupid!

riclad · 18-01-2021 5:49pm

More young people live alone, also most single young people cannot afford to buy a 3 bed house, if theres more single bed apartments built
at a lower price that will be a good thing.
other citys allow 10 plus storey buildings to be built.
Maybe some of the old office buildings could be turned into apartments
if the trend for people working from home continues after the covid crisis is over .
in 2021 it makes no sense to buy an expensive site near the city centre
and build 3 bed house,s on it , when you can build apartments in the same space.when the house,s in rathmines were built the cost of land was much cheaper , the cost of building was cheaper too .

Dublinflyer · 18-01-2021 5:51pm

Taylor365 wrote: »

Build up, stupid!

Oh no no no, we can't be doing that, it will ruin the aesthetic of the developers bank balances, I mean the city skyline

Taylor365 · 18-01-2021 5:54pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Oh no no no, we can't be doing that, it will ruin the aesthetic of the developers bank balances, I mean the city skyline

Then lets all shut up and let Dublin's urban sprawl C O N S U M E the rest of the country.

Forget 32, there is only O N E.

screamer · 18-01-2021 5:56pm

With the problems we have with anti social behaviour in Ireland and little if anything that can be done about it, combined with the requirement for developers to include a certain percentage of their properties as affordable or social housing, I don’t think I’d take a present of an apartment in such a complex.

keoclassic · 18-01-2021 5:57pm

The greed in some of these threads is amazing. Some people seem to think that home buyers should be treated like the units in which they are trying to place them. Some of these structures are nothing more than chicken coups designed to maximise profit. Shameless stuff.

18-01-2021 5:57pm

screamer wrote: »

With the problems we have with anti social behaviour in Ireland and little if anything that can be done about it, combined with the requirement for developers to include a certain percentage of their properties as affordable or social housing, I don’t think I’d take a present of an apartment in such a complex.

Looks to me like most social problems are in housing estates.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Oh no no no, we can't be doing that, it will ruin the aesthetic of the developers bank balances, I mean the city skyline

They will do well out of it.

keoclassic wrote: »

The greed in some of these threads is amazing. Some people seem to think that home buyers should be treated like the units in which they are trying to place them. Some of these structures are nothing more than chicken coups designed to maximise profit. Shameless stuff.

Unless you think people here are all developers I don't understand the accusations of greed.

My own opinion is, living in a 2 bedroom apartment as I do, that its grand if there is no family and no pets. We have neither so far.

keoclassic · 18-01-2021 6:02pm

micosoft wrote: »

Who said they will be tiny one bed apartments? There are lots of options between a three bed semi and a studio apartment.... how do you think the rest of Europe lives?

The thing is we are " not the rest of Europe". Why should we give up on our previous way of housing just to mimic theirs?? I like living in a house with front and back gardens! There is nothing more garish looking than blocks and blocks of high density housing. If it hasn't worked for social housing, why do you think it will work for private?

random_banter · 18-01-2021 6:11pm

To make apartment living as successful as in other countries, our planning criteria would have to change. It works well in other places, I'm not convinced it would work here.

We're in a 2 bed around the docks - no green spaces given or planned for with all the development around here. F*ck all storage space, vs. in the US or in Europe where you get storage units at basement level. Balconies the size of an ironing board which is still better than some places you see in town, with no balcony at all. Lack of natural light, adequate space and green spaces for people to really build a life and grow families is the reason high rise will never work here. And I have zero faith that they will change the planning regulations to cater for really "living" in these places.

We couldn't afford a 3 bed semi D for our first home and needed somewhere to live - but you can be damn sure that we're focused on that now - room to grow and expand as a family and even a small garden with some green space are priority no. 1 (along with many many many others who've realised this during the pandemic).

Samsonsmasher · 18-01-2021 6:24pm

screamer wrote: »

With the problems we have with anti social behaviour in Ireland and little if anything that can be done about it, combined with the requirement for developers to include a certain percentage of their properties as affordable or social housing, I don’t think I’d take a present of an apartment in such a complex.

Get rid of those requirements then. Simple as that. What builders and developers build should be there own business. Planners and objectors are holding things up and it's time that ended.
There's a demand for affordable housing.
High rise high density apartments make best use of expensive land and would supply the rental and buyers market faster.
Planning - political interference - regulations objections high taxation rental controls and requirements to provide "social" housing is the the root of and perpetuates the problem.

18-01-2021 6:28pm

screamer wrote: »

With the problems we have with anti social behaviour in Ireland and little if anything that can be done about it, combined with the requirement for developers to include a certain percentage of their properties as affordable or social housing, I don’t think I’d take a present of an apartment in such a complex.

This is the biggest issue imo, you can quote about how they live in Scandinavia until the cows come home but creating high density housing in former industrial estates in Dublin where councilors for political reasons will want to increase the social and 'affordable' levels to near 50% is a recipe for disaster.

Not to mention the housing associations that will purchase up even more of them.

Fuascailteoir · 18-01-2021 6:37pm

random_banter wrote: »

To make apartment living as successful as in other countries, our planning criteria would have to change. It works well in other places, I'm not convinced it would work here.

We're in a 2 bed around the docks - no green spaces given or planned for with all the development around here. F*ck all storage space, vs. in the US or in Europe where you get storage units at basement level. Balconies the size of an ironing board which is still better than some places you see in town, with no balcony at all. Lack of natural light, adequate space and green spaces for people to really build a life and grow families is the reason high rise will never work here. And I have zero faith that they will change the planning regulations to cater for really "living" in these places.

We couldn't afford a 3 bed semi D for our first home and needed somewhere to live - but you can be damn sure that we're focused on that now - room to grow and expand as a family and even a small garden with some green space are priority no. 1 (along with many many many others who've realised this during the pandemic).

One of the main problems is noise and lack of proper planning on relation to noise transfer between units. Could never return to living with hearing the person above, below and to the sides having a game of bowling at night

FishOnABike · 18-01-2021 6:40pm

Given our recent history of building substandard apartment complexes which have landed owners with expensive unexpected bills for remediation of defects I can understand people's lack of enthusiasm for apartment living.

We need proper, independently inspected and certified building standards which fully indemnify owners from defects and non compliance to building and fire safety standards. People have seen the joke that is self certification. Nobody wants to be the butt of that joke.

Add to this inadequate sound insulation between units, management fees, underfunded sinking funds causing problems for resale etc. I can understand why apartments might not be people's first choice.

MrMusician18 · 18-01-2021 6:40pm

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Interesting article in the IT this morning where the Dublin City Planner says that the days of 2 story houses are no more and it's all high density housing from now on that people want. It's behind a paywall.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/days-of-three-bed-semis-in-dublin-are-over-as-high-density-housing-plans-take-hold-1.4460746

Is it just me but given the shift to working from home at least some of the time that a lot of people will doing is this not an opinion that is a bit outdated now and they are creating another mess of tiny one bedroom apartments with no space that anyone with families won't want? Or will everyone with family's move out of the city and leave it to all the single people out there?

Great stuff from the very same council that's given us 2 storey council housing right in the city centre.

Right beside Tara st station to add insult to injury.

Larbre34 · 18-01-2021 6:46pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Great stuff from the very same council that's given us 2 storey council housing right in the city centre.

I've always been quite bewildered by that.

There should be no new residential buildings inside the canals of less than 8 storeys, or more ideally, 10.

As others have mentioned, the continental model of 3 and 4 bed multi level apartments within larger buildings, is perfectly comfortable and appropriate accommodation for life long family dwelling, owned or rented.

If this Council wants to preach about the end of old style housing, it would want to get serious and innovative about the quality and design of what will replace it, instead of the developer led model, which despite all protestations we haven't moved away from one bit.

Pixel Eater · 18-01-2021 8:13pm

Should also build apartments in or near existing suburban estates instead of more houses. They don't need to be huge blocks of 6/8 stories, just 3 or 4 stories that don't dominate the area. Just use the space that would be given to a front lawn and back garden; the residents could use the existing communal green areas of the estate.

Larbre34 · 18-01-2021 8:26pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Should also build apartments in or near existing suburban estates instead of more houses. They don't need to be huge blocks of 6/8 stories, just 3 or 4 stories that don't dominate the area. Just use the space that would be given to a front lawn and back garden; the residents could use the existing communal green areas of the estate.

This is already a pretty common model. I'm thinking of the redevelopment of the Dun Laoghaire Golf Course site that has delivered 1,100 homes in this sort of mix.

jrosen · 18-01-2021 8:53pm

No one is making land so we need to use what we have in the best way possible. We need to retain a level of green space, outside space and if that means building up then so be it.

But I do think we need to look at other countries. I raised my family for a number of years in a 2 bed apt abroad. We had washer dryer in unit, open plan office space on one whole floor for anyone who was working from home, roof terrace with BBQ, play room, gym, recreational room, cinema room, basement storage also for bikes etc. Parks and playgrounds were plentiful on our doorstep. I never felt confined. Yet here most apts have nothing other than the apt itself.

bennyineire · 18-01-2021 8:57pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Built in the early 80's, it's near Lewisham I think...

His done work over the years on it, I think his house footprint is 20% smaller than my house, yet has 30-35% More sq footage within the house

I'm struggling to see you point then TBH. This thread is about future planning in Dublin so I've no idea why you said "my uncle has a house in London"

Have you any idea how many houses were built in Dublin since the 80's?

Eric Cartman · 18-01-2021 9:03pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Great stuff from the very same council that's given us 2 storey council housing right in the city centre.

Right beside Tara st station to add insult to injury.

Council tenants are expected to live how the middle classes used to. Young middle class couples are expected to shove themselves in apartments or go to Ashbourne, but its gardens and stables and parking spaces for those who have no need to be in the city.

18-01-2021 9:11pm

LOL at Tara street. Anyone been to Dunshaughlin lately, the place is exploding.

Also the N3 Virginia bypass is also at design stage I think. I think this will also make it practical to commute from Enniskillen daily.

Dublin city has enough low rise as it is. There's too many people and too little space, it needs to go higher density. I lived in an apartment near the pheonix park for a few years. Thought it was a great location and the apartment was pretty good, better than some of the old semi-ds I shared.

Not everything we build has to be for families. There's a huge amount of singles, older people and couples with no kids needing accomodation too.

18-01-2021 9:16pm

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Get rid of those requirements then. Simple as that. What builders and developers build should be there own business. Planners and objectors are holding things up and it's time that ended.
There's a demand for affordable housing.
High rise high density apartments make best use of expensive land and would supply the rental and buyers market faster.
Planning - political interference - regulations objections high taxation rental controls and requirements to provide "social" housing is the the root of and perpetuates the problem.

You might want to get your head out of Ayn Rand's arse and investigate the Celtic tiger era, a time of free market profiteering, self certification, and little planning or government intervention.

Spoilers: It didn't end well.

Samsonsmasher · 18-01-2021 9:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You might want to get your head out of Ayn Rand's arse and investigate the Celtic tiger era, a time of free market profiteering, self certification, and little planning or government intervention.

Spoilers: It didn't end well.

Planning objections and regulation led to the building of overpriced two story houses making the most inefficient use possible of expensive land fueling the bubble making land more expensive which was carried over into ever higher house prices and political demands for banks to lend more money causing overheating and a crash.
If high rise high density apartment blocks had been built this could have been avoided.
Without incentives to build affordable accomodation it won't happen.
Remove the barriers and increase the incentives and allow the market to work.

blackbox · 18-01-2021 10:14pm

jrosen wrote: »

But I do think we need to look at other countries. I raised my family for a number of years in a 2 bed apt abroad. We had washer dryer in unit, open plan office space on one whole floor for anyone who was working from home, roof terrace with BBQ, play room, gym, recreational room, cinema room, basement storage also for bikes etc. Parks and playgrounds were plentiful on our doorstep. I never felt confined. Yet here most apts have nothing other than the apt itself.

I think this is a great idea, but many would complain that people shouldn't have to use shared facilities. They complain that it shouldn't even be allowed for students.

timmyntc · 19-01-2021 10:04am

blackbox wrote: »

I think this is a great idea, but many would complain that people shouldn't have to use shared facilities. They complain that it shouldn't even be allowed for students.

Co-living is a totally different story.
Having to share bathrooms and kitchens with other people, and only having your room to yourself, is a totally different situation.

Days of three-bed semis in Dublin "are over"

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