Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 11:33am

Stander, Henderson, Sexton, Earls, POM, Furlong, Healy

In reality out of that crop only Furlong and Hendo could get contracts. Stander is nailed on started now but he will be 33? by the time of next WC so no spring chicken plus we have a flood of options in his position.

Second row we are light and Hendo is young
Furlong is one of the few World Class players we have and a scrum with him and Porter would be immense

With the financial restrictions they might have to let the rest go to pastures new

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 11:36am

are people at all surprised that in the season after a RWC we have older players coming out of central contracts who most likely wont be offered new ones??

thats exactly how the system does and should work.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:38am

No thats not how it works at all. There's plenty of examples in the past where they were renewed. We have a host of top players not performing and if Covid wasn't a factor they would all be in line for new central deals. SOB is possibly the only elite guy who the IRFU called the bluff. The one guy who we could probably do with at the moment.

The system is in line for an overhaul. The idea that contract systems can only be one way is nonsense. Liverpool are an example of this in sport. they completely overhauled their contract system. SOB is an example of the IRFU applying harsher methods in the injury stakes. He was simply injured too much to be paid 500k a year. So perhaps its a ripe time to move to a new path. Cause its not working. In the pyramid structure the provinces are top.

theVersatile · 01-12-2020 11:38am

Burns out, Harry Byrne in; per Murray Kinsella

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333721055056310274?s=19

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 11:42am

sydthebeat wrote: »

are people at all surprised that in the season after a RWC we have older players coming out of central contracts who most likely wont be offered new ones??

thats exactly how the system does and should work.

Not surprised at all. I think some people are trying to say less central contracts will be offered but if I look at the players who's contracts are finished the only other person who I would offer is Stander.

Sexton, Earls, POM, Healy should not be offered a contract even if covid never happened.

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 11:43am

Niallof9 wrote: »

No thats not how it works at all. There's plenty of examples in the past where they were renewed. We have a host of top players not performing and if Covid wasn't a factor they would all be in line for new central deals. SOB is possibly the only elite guy who the IRFU called the bluff. The one guy who we could probably do with at the moment.

The system is in line for an overhaul. The idea that contract systems can only be one way is nonsense. Liverpool are an example of this in sport. they completely overhauled their contract system. SOB is an example of the IRFU applying harsher methods in the injury stakes. He was simply injured too much to be paid 500k a year. So perhaps its a ripe time to move to a new path. Cause its not working. In the pyramid structure the provinces are top.

Please provide some examples because I can't think of any.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:43am

Solutionking wrote: »

Not surprised at all. I think some people are trying to say less central contracts will be offered but if I look at the players who's contracts are finished the only other person who I would offer is Stander.

Sexton, Earls, POM, Healy should not be offered a contract even if covid never happened.

But A) there's no guarantee they won't be and

the problem is then you have about 6 guys on central deals. How in Gods name is that good in a 35 man squad? and then like i said we head into this realm where suddenly people like Keenan and Connors become central deals by default.

People like me aren't surprised by anything. You have to ask yourself about the model we have. where does surprise come into that. And in the past we had plenty of lads offered deals beyond their sell by date or left on deals we couldn't shift. this is the issue. It can also directly explain whats happening. there has to be some unease at the moment.

aloooof · 01-12-2020 11:45am

Solutionking wrote: »

Please provide some examples because I can't think of any.

I can think of examples of the opposite; I'm pretty certain D'arcy is on record as saying his contract offers from the IRFU dramatically dropped once he reached 30.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:46am

Solutionking wrote: »

Please provide some examples because I can't think of any.

Tommy Bowe is one off the top of my head.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:48am

aloooof wrote: »

I can think of examples of the opposite; I'm pretty certain D'arcy is on record as saying his contract offers from the IRFU dramatically dropped once he reached 30.

of course you can. what you seem unable to do is stick to the point. did i say anything about the value of the deal. Of course they will be reduced. The point is the contract on offer will be a central deal, because the IRFU has deemed that as the standard bearer. the "star" player gets the central deal, and on the vicious circle continues. Would be understandable if we could get past a WC qf. But we can't because i argue that the very nature of the central deal makes it a disincentive for performance and hinders proper pecking orders based on performance.

UAEguy2020 · 01-12-2020 11:48am

Solutionking wrote: »

I think the biggest shock will be when people figure out how great a coach Schmidt was. The treatment that man got when he left was a disgrace.

Schmidt was and still is a great coach, that doesn’t excuse what happened in his final year, he deserves credit and respect for what he did but the reality is it was all about the World Cup and unlike previous coaches Schmidt had 2 bites of the cherry and in 2019 things were literally no different to 2015 only that it took a little longer for our opposition to go 20 points up.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:51am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Schmidt was and still is a great coach, that doesn’t excuse what happened in his final year, he deserves credit and respect for what he did but the reality is it was all about the World Cup and unlike previous coaches Schmidt had 2 bites of the cherry and in 2019 things were literally no different to 2015 only that it took a little longer for our opposition to go 20 points up.

Yeah i hold my hand up in this regard. I've been proven wrong. The positives totally outweighed the negatives. I just thought the players were better than they were. His failure to adapt also was frustrating. But it was all in the detail.

aloooof · 01-12-2020 11:51am

theVersatile wrote: »

Burns out, Harry Byrne in; per Murray Kinsella

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333721055056310274?s=19

That's disappointing, was hoping Burns could start (if possibly unlikely).

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 11:51am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Tommy Bowe is one off the top of my head.

Bowe was in cracking form when he signed his contract, then injuries hit.

You are saying players got contracts when out of form and over 30, so please provide examples. You said plenty and came up with one which is not correct

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:55am

Solutionking wrote: »

Bowe was in cracking form when he signed his contract, then injuries hit.

You are saying players got contracts when out of form and over 30, so please provide examples. You said plenty and came up with one which is not correct

But i also argued that's the issue with the central deals. And Tommy Bowe was 30 when he signed meaning he was 33 when it was ending (injuries obviously did it in the end) Stupid stuff really. John Hayes got a deal at 35. Best was on one. Shall i go on. There's probably tonnes more. I'm hardly going to go through every deal. There's a very good chance KE, JS, POM, CM get one.

Can people not argue why they think central deals are mostly positive instead of nitpicking.

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 11:55am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Schmidt was and still is a great coach, that doesn’t excuse what happened in his final year, he deserves credit and respect for what he did but the reality is it was all about the World Cup and unlike previous coaches Schmidt had 2 bites of the cherry and in 2019 things were literally no different to 2015 only that it took a little longer for our opposition to go 20 points up.

Incorrect. 2015 we had a completely different game plan and a small squad of circa 20 players. After that it was light. Hence why picking up those injuries including one of the best players in the World meant we didn't really have a replacement. Sexton would have been a huge loss to any team as he was in his peak. His loss with POC etc we just couldn't take. Remember in 2015 we won the 6 nations and went in full of confidence. The group stage we walked it.

If Madigan had knocked over that kick I think we would have won that game.

2019 the team was completely shot of confidence going into the competition and never really played well. Maybe it was Schmidt announcing he was leaving, who knows.

Two completely different situations.

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 11:57am

Niallof9 wrote: »

But i also argued that's the issue with the central deals. And Tommy Bowe was 30 when he signed meaning he was 33 when it was ending. Stupid stuff really.

Still waiting for all those examples.

01-12-2020 11:58am

Niallof9 wrote: »

when will you get into your head that its a highly likely scenario. McGrath had Healy coming back and was waning himself, and Toner was in freefall. The latter is a real example of how central deals don't work. Even if its not a selection thing I have no evidence, and your rebuttal probably using these two is flimsy at best , how is that good for anybody? The player himself, the squad, the finances, the competing player. Its not and we've been living off the idea that we're the smartest guys in the room when it comes to this stuff. We ain't and Nuciforas comments highlight it. Even without Covid this would still be the scenario. Earls, Sexton, POM,MUrray would all still face huge cuts like SOB. An unhappy squad group, a pecking order being reshuffled. Central deals whatever the selection issue, should be retired. And when i say selection i'm talking about the squad selections. And if player A in squad on 2 year central deal gets dropped but is on 400k and is just holding bags, but player B is on 200k and now starting but has to wait another 2 years, to me this is a daft system. There's a tonne of other stuff probably involved with rights and sponsorship and exposure and match bonuses. we have no idea.

You've been led to water so many times on this regarding guaranteed selection. Everyone is wrong and you are right. There's no point with you.

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 11:59am

tommy bowes contract was renewed in 2014... a year BEFORE the 2015 RWC

so the point still stands

that in the season after a RWC we have older players coming out of central contracts who most likely wont be offered new ones

unless you can find an actual example

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 11:59am

Solutionking wrote: »

Still waiting for all those examples.

Still waiting for people like you to argue the opposite viewpoint. Why are central deals not a negative thing? How does having 11-13 guys on star deals suit a 35 man quad game where form and injury are wildly oscillating. As i said Hayes was offered one. Best (you could argue he was done after the NZ game). Toner got one when clearly waning.

Furlong, Henderson, Stander, Ringrose, Stockdale, James Ryan are now on them. Lets say they cut the others how is that an ideal situation going forward? who gets the stamp of approval for the star deals?

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 12:01pm

by the way, Conor Murray is contracted till June 2022... so not sure why hes been added to the list of players whos contracts are up.

aloooof · 01-12-2020 12:01pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

of course you can. what you seem unable to do is stick to the point. did i say anything about the value of the deal.

You did actually, yes:

Niallof9 wrote: »

Even if its not a selection thing I have no evidence, and your rebuttal probably using these two is flimsy at best , how is that good for anybody? The player himself, the squad, the finances, the competing player.

Anyways, your larger point seems to be about the concept of centrally contracted players, so fair enough. (And am really gonna leave it there this time...)

ionadnapokot · 01-12-2020 12:04pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Burns out, Harry Byrne in; per Murray Kinsella

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333721055056310274?s=19

I would like Ross to start and Harry to come off the bench.

Of course it will be Sexton starting and Ross on the bench. Yawn

Eric O'Sullivan might even make the bench this wk though!

Predicted team
Stockdale; Keenan, Henshaw, Aki, Earls; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Herring, Porter; Henderson, Ryan; CJ, Connors, Dorris.
Reps: Kelleher, Beahlam, Ryan, Roux, PO'M, JGP, RByrne, Daly

Viable alternative team that could have been selected or even for Georgia
(small bit of foresight required at the start by Farrell)
Daly; Conway, Henshaw, Frawley, Stockdale; RByrne, JGP; O'Sullivan, Kelleher, Porter; Henderson, Ryan; PO'M, Connors, Dorris
Reps: Heffernan, Buckley, Beahlam, Baird, Wycherley, Casey, HByrne, Lowry.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 12:05pm

aloooof wrote: »

You did actually, yes:

Anyways, your larger point seems to be about the concept of centrally contracted players, so fair enough. (And am really gonna leave it there this time...)

yeah agreed. I'm done as some of you are incapable of not being anal about it and just offering a counterpoint that isn't one of a pedant. all hail the central deal, the leaders know best. 2023 here we come. the period between 2018-2023 shall never be spoken about and didn't happen.

the reality seems this could be the shift that i'm talking about if the deals aren't replaced.

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 12:07pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah agreed. I'm done as some of you are incapable of not being anal about it and just offering a counterpoint that isn't one of a pedant. all hail the central deal, the leaders know best. 2023 here we come. the period between 2018-2023 shall never be spoken about and didn't happen.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

such a child

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:07pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I would like Ross to start and Harry to come off the bench.

Of course it will be Sexton starting and Ross on the bench. Yawn

Eric O'Sullivan might even make the bench this wk though!

Predicted team
Stockdale; Keenan, Henshaw, Aki, Earls; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Herring, Porter; Henderson, Ryan; CJ, Connors, Dorris.
Reps: Kelleher, Beahlam, Ryan, Roux, PO'M, JGP, RByrne, Daly

Viable alternative team that could have been selected or even for Georgia
(small bit of foresight required at the start by Farrell)
Daly; Conway, Henshaw, Frawley, Stockdale; RByrne, JGP; O'Sullivan, Kelleher, Porter; Henderson, Ryan; PO'M, Connors, Dorris
Reps: Heffernan, Buckley, Beahlam, Baird, Wycherley, Casey, HByrne, Lowry.

If we start Ross and bring Harry off the bench, we lose.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 12:08pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

such a child

saids the lad calling people schizophrenics.

theVersatile · 01-12-2020 12:09pm

Not fond of Ross starting... But this is a nothing game at the same time so I'd rather this be his last chance saloon than an important 6N match

ionadnapokot · 01-12-2020 12:10pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If we start Ross and bring Harry off the bench, we lose.

Maybe!
But so what really?

We could well loose with Sexton starting.

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 12:10pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

saids the pleb calling people schizophrenics.

well you argue one way... and then post this crap:

all hail the central deal, the leaders know best

what else would you call it....

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:10pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Not fond of Ross starting... But this is a nothing game at the same time so I'd rather this be his last chance saloon than an important 6N match

A last opportunity for him to impress before we move on would be fair enough, I suppose.

Connors is out.

aloooof · 01-12-2020 12:11pm

I wonder could we see Sexton start with Harry Byrne on the bench? Seems unlikely tho.

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 12:11pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Not fond of Ross starting... But this is a nothing game at the same time so I'd rather this be his last chance saloon than an important 6N match

if sexton is 90%, he starts

at this stage i think Burns has passed out Ross as sextons back up

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:13pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Maybe!
But so what really?

We could well loose with Sexton starting.

While I get what you're saying - and I don't disagree about Sexton - if we lose this, I'd say confidence will be very, very low going into the Six Nations. And we will get zero benefit from starting Ross because we can already see that he isn't the answer.

Former Former Former · 01-12-2020 12:15pm

I assume Sexton will be back, but if not I'd start Harry before I'd start Ross tbh. At this point, giving starts to Ross is a waste of game time.

And for jaysis' sake give a start to someone other than Porter. And give EOS a run too.

Edit: the release says H Byrne and EOS will 'train with' the squad this week. That probably means they're not in line for selection.
https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/12/01/ireland-squad-update-burns-ruled-out-of-scotland-fixture/

shootermacg · 01-12-2020 12:23pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

A last opportunity for him to impress before we move on would be fair enough, I suppose.

Connors is out.

Injury?

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:33pm

Aye - head injury.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-injury-update-scotland-5284700-Dec2020/

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:34pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

I assume Sexton will be back, but if not I'd start Harry before I'd start Ross tbh. At this point, giving starts to Ross is a waste of game time.

And for jaysis' sake give a start to someone other than Porter. And give EOS a run too.

Edit: the release says H Byrne and EOS will 'train with' the squad this week. That probably means they're not in line for selection.
https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/12/01/ireland-squad-update-burns-ruled-out-of-scotland-fixture/

Aye, that's the phrase they used about EOS last week as well. They're taking a look at them.

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 12:35pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Still waiting for people like you to argue the opposite viewpoint. Why are central deals not a negative thing? How does having 11-13 guys on star deals suit a 35 man quad game where form and injury are wildly oscillating. As i said Hayes was offered one. Best (you could argue he was done after the NZ game). Toner got one when clearly waning.

Furlong, Henderson, Stander, Ringrose, Stockdale, James Ryan are now on them. Lets say they cut the others how is that an ideal situation going forward? who gets the stamp of approval for the star deals?

You said you had loads of examples, please provide. If you can't then admit you are talking poo and move on.

UAEguy2020 · 01-12-2020 12:40pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah i hold my hand up in this regard. I've been proven wrong. The positives totally outweighed the negatives. I just thought the players were better than they were. His failure to adapt also was frustrating. But it was all in the detail.

The players he had got Ireland to first in the world, I think asking them to beat Japan isn’t asking that much of them or at least showing some pride against NZL instead of just rolling over and having their tummy tickled.

It wasn’t the lack of ability that was disheartening it was the lack of heart shown or desire, it was the equivalent of having a plan until you are punched in the face, all you had to do was smash a player and the entire team would roll over.

Yeah_Right · 01-12-2020 12:44pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Still waiting for people like you to argue the opposite viewpoint. Why are central deals not a negative thing? How does having 11-13 guys on star deals suit a 35 man quad game where form and injury are wildly oscillating. As i said Hayes was offered one. Best (you could argue he was done after the NZ game). Toner got one when clearly waning.

Furlong, Henderson, Stander, Ringrose, Stockdale, James Ryan are now on them. Lets say they cut the others how is that an ideal situation going forward? who gets the stamp of approval for the star deals?

Lets tease out your theory that doing away with central contracts is the best idea. Bear with me because I have no idea what money these guys get paid so I will be using figures just as an example to make my point.

Say the guys in bold were all offered provincial deals for 3 or 4 years of €200k pa. that would be topped up by performance bonuses and appearances for Ireland. That takes them to €500k pa. Now obviously loss of form or injury hits them in the pocket. Along comes a club from France, UK or Japan and says here is a contract for €500k pa guaranteed for 3 years. What would you do?

I don't know the marital/family status of any of the guys in bold but if they have a wife/partner and kids.... Their career is 10 to 15 years at best and it could end in a split second.

Zzippy · 01-12-2020 12:50pm

One poster has been given a holiday from the forum. Folks please read the charter and remember that we welcome constructive debate and discussion, but posts that are antagonistic, condescending, dismissive or insulting are not welcome. Attack the post, not the poster. Thanks.

ionadnapokot · 01-12-2020 12:51pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

While I get what you're saying - and I don't disagree about Sexton - if we lose this, I'd say confidence will be very, very low going into the Six Nations. And we will get zero benefit from starting Ross because we can already see that he isn't the answer.

Rome wasnt built in a day!
Sticking with Sexton has made it all the more difficult on Ireland to start the rebuild.
But we already new Ross was never THE answer.

We should have already blooded Harry this autumn.
If Sexton gets injured who starts at 10 in 6N? It's either Burns or RByrne. So they should start Byrne v Scotland.

Confidence is very low.
Sexton, Healy & Earls should not have been playing in this Autumn thing at all. But here we are looking for a confidence kick instead of real rebuilding.

UAEguy2020 · 01-12-2020 12:57pm

Solutionking wrote: »

Incorrect. 2015 we had a completely different game plan and a small squad of circa 20 players. After that it was light. Hence why picking up those injuries including one of the best players in the World meant we didn't really have a replacement. Sexton would have been a huge loss to any team as he was in his peak. His loss with POC etc we just couldn't take. Remember in 2015 we won the 6 nations and went in full of confidence. The group stage we walked it.

If Madigan had knocked over that kick I think we would have won that game.

2019 the team was completely shot of confidence going into the competition and never really played well. Maybe it was Schmidt announcing he was leaving, who knows.

Two completely different situations.

It wasn’t because I said in 2015 that the loss was deeper than just the players we lost but of course the blame was put all on the injuries and the real problem was never fixed, hence why when all those players were back fit for 2019 the same issues cropped up.

In 2015 we actually had some guts, in 2019 that was one of the most gutless Irish teams in history, no heart, no passion, no desire they had nothing inside them, they gave up the NZL game before a ball was kicked, you could see it in their body language.

I do believe Schmidt announcing he was leaving had an impact because we have seen it before have really bad effects on teams, Tony Mcgahan with Munster, topped the Heineken cup standings, announced he was leaving, ducked up our greatest chance in years to win a European cup, got smashed by 30+ points in the magners league SF. Someone like Harry redknapp at Spurs announced he was leaving, was 9 points clear in 3rd in the premier league and by the end of the season they failed to even make the top 4 and missed out on the champions league.

It can’t be a coincidence because the Irish performances were extremely sloppy and average in no time at all and the common denominator was that incident.

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 2:29pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

It wasn’t because I said in 2015 that the loss was deeper than just the players we lost but of course the blame was put all on the injuries and the real problem was never fixed, hence why when all those players were back fit for 2019 the same issues cropped up.

In 2015 we actually had some guts, in 2019 that was one of the most gutless Irish teams in history, no heart, no passion, no desire they had nothing inside them, they gave up the NZL game before a ball was kicked, you could see it in their body language.

I do believe Schmidt announcing he was leaving had an impact because we have seen it before have really bad effects on teams, Tony Mcgahan with Munster, topped the Heineken cup standings, announced he was leaving, ducked up our greatest chance in years to win a European cup, got smashed by 30+ points in the magners league SF. Someone like Harry redknapp at Spurs announced he was leaving, was 9 points clear in 3rd in the premier league and by the end of the season they failed to even make the top 4 and missed out on the champions league.

It can’t be a coincidence because the Irish performances were extremely sloppy and average in no time at all and the common denominator was that incident.

Ireland changed the style of play from 2015 to 2019. It was a complete change. Yes we had a large number of the same players but why wouldn't we? bar 1-2 most of them where still young enough to play in a WC, yes out of form.

Im not getting into a back/forward but Joe changed a huge amount between 2015 to 2019 to try win but we just peaked a year early and everyone had picked apart our game style. In reality if Joe was still in charge he would need to revert back to Ireland 2015 now to win. That is the style England are using now. It is funny to listen to the English press which ridiculed Ireland and Joe for that style and now talking about the greta kicking game and how May is so good in the air etc. Exact same thing as Ireland did in 2014/15

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 2:36pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Rome wasnt built in a day!
Sticking with Sexton has made it all the more difficult on Ireland to start the rebuild.
But we already new Ross was never THE answer.

We should have already blooded Harry this autumn.
If Sexton gets injured who starts at 10 in 6N? It's either Burns or RByrne. So they should start Byrne v Scotland.

Confidence is very low.
Sexton, Healy & Earls should not have been playing in this Autumn thing at all. But here we are looking for a confidence kick instead of real rebuilding.

Harry Byrne has how many starts to his name? we rushed PJ into a big game and it set him back a few seasons.

Burns has done well so far when he has been on the pitch and looks a good option. At this stage R Byrne and Carty should be catapulted from the squad, we are just wasting valuable time and caps. Maybe bring in Healy from Munster as well.

Sexton will be finished at the end of season so we still need him around the squad to get his experience into the players.

UAEguy2020 · 01-12-2020 2:50pm

Solutionking wrote: »

Ireland changed the style of play from 2015 to 2019. It was a complete change. Yes we had a large number of the same players but why wouldn't we? bar 1-2 most of them where still young enough to play in a WC, yes out of form.

Im not getting into a back/forward but Joe changed a huge amount between 2015 to 2019 to try win but we just peaked a year early and everyone had picked apart our game style. In reality if Joe was still in charge he would need to revert back to Ireland 2015 now to win. That is the style England are using now. It is funny to listen to the English press which ridiculed Ireland and Joe for that style and now talking about the greta kicking game and how May is so good in the air etc. Exact same thing as Ireland did in 2014/15

He did change alot and was on course to achieving our best ever place at a RWC, but every top coach knows you can never rest on your laurels you have to always keep improving but instead of improving Ireland stayed exactly where they were and that was the problem. What wasnt fixed was the performance anxiety, in 2019 the way we shat the bed was a carbon copy of 2015 the only difference was the 2015 team had enough guts to stage a comeback. With England it looks great now but I guarentee you if they dont add something different to their game they will get found out soon enough, happened in 2018 and will happen again if they arent careful. England like France are the bright shiny object right now so every lauds them, that will change once results go the other way.

AbusesToilets · 01-12-2020 2:53pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Lets tease out your theory that doing away with central contracts is the best idea. Bear with me because I have no idea what money these guys get paid so I will be using figures just as an example to make my point.

Say the guys in bold were all offered provincial deals for 3 or 4 years of €200k pa. that would be topped up by performance bonuses and appearances for Ireland. That takes them to €500k pa. Now obviously loss of form or injury hits them in the pocket. Along comes a club from France, UK or Japan and says here is a contract for €500k pa guaranteed for 3 years. What would you do?

I don't know the marital/family status of any of the guys in bold but if they have a wife/partner and kids.... Their career is 10 to 15 years at best and it could end in a split second.

Surely that theoretical French team could make that offer regardless. Even if the Irish player was receiving the full value of central money in your scenario, he'd be weighing a guaranteed salary vs a variable one.

I think the IRFU should trust that players will want to stay at successful clubs and compete for an Irish jersey. If players choose to go overseas knowing the current selection restrictions, good luck to them.

01-12-2020 3:03pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Rome wasnt built in a day!
Sticking with Sexton has made it all the more difficult on Ireland to start the rebuild.
But we already new Ross was never THE answer.

We should have already blooded Harry this autumn.
If Sexton gets injured who starts at 10 in 6N? It's either Burns or RByrne. So they should start Byrne v Scotland.

Confidence is very low.
Sexton, Healy & Earls should not have been playing in this Autumn thing at all. But here we are looking for a confidence kick instead of real rebuilding.

Having only 4 teams AND in a currently weak league really does delay or even damage the development of players in key positions like 10 where it's key to get proper game-running experience of games with proper intensity (not what the pro 14 offers right now).

The French have 3 international out-halves in their squad, the same age as Harry Byrne thereabouts, (N'tamack is younger) having gotten consistent proper tough experience in Top 14 to see if they have "it" or not

Of course the provinces don't really want to hand the big European games (few enough anyway) to provide experience to young 10's unless forced by injury so what is the solution when the "bore 14" games don't provide enough of a step up?

so what's the solution to get 10's the proper experience quicker to be trusted to step up to international level then?

Ross Byrne should be demoted below his brother at Leinster if international 10 is a concern - will he be?

Solutionking · 01-12-2020 3:09pm

glasso wrote: »

Having only 4 teams in a currently weak league really does delay or even damage the development of players in key positions like 10 where it's key to get proper game-running experience of games with proper intensity (not what the pro 14 offers right now).

The French have 3 international out-halves in their squad, the same age as Harry Byrne thereabouts, (N'tamack is younger) having gotten consistent proper tough experience in Top 14 to see if they have "it" or not

Of course the provinces don't really want to hand the big European games to provide experience to young 10's unless forced by injury so what is the solution when the "bore 14" games don't provide enough of a step up?

so what's the solution to get 10's the proper experience quicker to be trusted to step up to international level then?

Ross Byrne should be demoted below his brother at Leinster if international 10 is a concern - will he be?

The introduction of the SA teams hopefully will make the league stronger.

Why would you throw out Ross Byrne at club level? his two real chances have come against England in twickers. He could be a quality 10 for Leinster in Pro14 and HC for years.

We can't compare ourselves to the French or English. They have a huge amount of players to pick from which we don't have, plus a more competitive league. We have benefits and they have benefits. At the moment we just need some more competitive games in Pro14

With the amount of players we have available we should not be throwing good club players away at the drop of a hat

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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