Primary schools to get Tricolour for 1916 centenary

Fratton Fred · 16-09-2015 8:44pm

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Fratton Fred, sure the wee uns in the primary schools probably play gaelic football, at gaelic football grounds the tri colour is flown so they already stand under it.

As I said, I have no problem with people waving flags, it's soldiers coming in to schools to read the proclamation and teach about the flag I'm not comfortable with. It all seems a bit "dated".

Maybe it's because I watched the book thief the other night...

sdanseo · 16-09-2015 9:24pm

recipio wrote: »

Those who are happy with the Republic ( and partition ) will celebrate. Those who are not will regard 1916 as a monumental cock up.:rolleyes:

You're missing the point, though.

1916 was a total military failure. It was a stupid, senseless, unplanned, and misguided attempt to show force when no real force existed. It made a mockery of the volunteer movement.

However, two key things came from it:

1. It made a point. It was the spark that lit the fire of Irish independence and provoked many thousands more into rebellion.

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

riffmongous · 16-09-2015 9:27pm

recipio wrote: »

Those who are happy with the Republic ( and partition ) will celebrate.

How exactly did you arrive at this conclusion??

tomwaterford · 16-09-2015 9:38pm

sdanseo wrote: »

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

AFAIK they dug enough graves/big enough pit to execute around 80....but orders soon came from London to stop as public opinion had turned againest them

Though it's no harm for children to learn of there country's history

katydid · 16-09-2015 10:18pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I'd say the soldiers ordered out to do that mission are going to love it , every primary school ?

Sure what else they have to do. It's not like they fight wars or anything.

LordSutch · 16-09-2015 11:54pm

sdanseo wrote: »

You're missing the point, though.

1916 was a total military failure. It was a stupid, senseless, unplanned, and misguided attempt to show force when no real force existed. It made a mockery of the volunteer movement.

However, two key things came from it:

1. It made a point. It was the spark that lit the fire of Irish independence and provoked many thousands more into rebellion.

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

Yet on the other hand what were the authorities to do with the rebels after such a violent attack? (in the middle of the Great War). Rebels which openly supported Germany, while 250,000 Irish men were already fighting the Germans in the trenches & on Flanders fields.

What do you do with the rebels which caused so much death & destruction?

This was the question posed to the authorities. Was it 300 civilian deaths? + X amount of army personnel (both Irish & British) + I don't now how many policemen (Irish policemen).

I guess the authorities had to do something, and at that time (during WWI) corporal punishment was often the order of the day, such was the mindset during war.

I'm not saying it was right to execute the leaders, but what the hell was General Maxwell meant to do????

What should have been done with the rebels?

DanielODonnell · 17-09-2015 1:31am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I said, I have no problem with people waving flags, it's soldiers coming in to schools to read the proclamation and teach about the flag I'm not comfortable with. It all seems a bit "dated".

Maybe it's because I watched the book thief the other night...

I will agree with you on that as I am not too fond of that army as they remind me of the Pro-treaty sort of fellows at the time.

Nodin · 17-09-2015 5:20am

LordSutch wrote: »

Yet on the other hand what were the authorities to do with the rebels after such a violent attack?

I suppose giving them a nod and fucking off back to their own country was asking too much?

Nodin · 17-09-2015 5:23am

Bambi wrote: »

A bit of flag hanging now and then does no harm to remind some fordiners of what country it is they live in

Having the army wandering around schools is stupid though, but fine gael still have that blue shirt love affair with martial rule

If it was a true blue shirt affair it would be Gardaí( missing their numbers) hauling out certain kids and given them a hiding, culminating in arrests for the dissappearnce of Shergar, Lord Lucan and the sinking of the Lusitania.

Sunnyisland · 17-09-2015 7:47am

They hoped for success, but believed that even failure was preferable to inaction, as it would reassert, and possibly reinvigorate, the long tradition of violent opposition to British authority (adding another historic date to the unsuccessful risings of 1798, 1803, 1848 and 1867).

The decision to rise was also based on the traditional Fenian dictum that England's difficulty was Ireland's opportunity.

They did not, as is sometimes thought, willingly seek martyrdom or a mystical 'blood sacrifice'. Rather they felt that a heroic gesture was required to reawaken the spirit of militant Irish nationalism.

They believed that the British government's resolution of the land and Home Rule questions, and the decline of Irish cultural identity, had almost extinguished true Irish nationality, rendering the Irish, like the Welsh and Scots, acquiescent subjects of the United Kingdom.

We should be proud of them and IMO it's a great idea, least we forget.

website.http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/easter_rising_01.shtml

LordSutch · 17-09-2015 8:14am

Nodin wrote: »

I suppose giving them a nod and fucking off back to their own country was asking too much?

Ah, the old memory cells playing up again?

Remember. The 1916 rising was a very unpopular event within Dublin/Ireland itself.

...until/after the rebels were executed.

smurgen · 17-09-2015 8:18am

LordSutch wrote: »

Ah, the old memory cells playing up again?

Remember. The 1916 rising was a very unpopular event within Dublin/Ireland itself.

...until/after the rebels were executed.

But they were executed and their actions lead to our independence. We should all celebrate 1916.this is modern Ireland.the celebration isn't just for the republicans but it is for those of us proud of our modern Republic.

LordSutch · 17-09-2015 9:12am

smurgen wrote: »

But they were executed and their actions lead to our independence. We should all celebrate 1916.this is modern Ireland.the celebration isn't just for the republicans but it is for those of us proud of our modern Republic.

OK I hear you Smurgen, but can you please read #138 and #207 and tell me what you think.

Thanks.

Nodin · 17-09-2015 10:31am

LordSutch wrote: »

Ah, the old memory cells playing up again?

Remember. The 1916 rising was a very unpopular event within Dublin/Ireland itself.

...until/after the rebels were executed.

Now,now. You lost in the end. You're going to have to come to terms with that. When you next hold the drum you can tell the group what you miss most about the Empire.

seamus · 17-09-2015 10:46am

LordSutch wrote: »

I guess the authorities had to do something, and at that time (during WWI) corporal punishment was often the order of the day, such was the mindset during war.

I'm not saying it was right to execute the leaders, but what the hell was General Maxwell meant to do????

What should have been done with the rebels?

I guess you can look at it as a good example of how Imperialism had become anachronistic and was crumbling in the face of "newer" forms of governance that were taking hold. Or more specifically at the new-found power the proletariat had after the industrial revolution improved living conditions and education levels in Europe.

WWI was a war unlike anything the empire had ever encountered before. While fighting the largest single war in the history of humanity on one front, they didn't know how to deal with a small insurrection on the other, and they dealt with it swiftly and brutally. A method that would have been just fine back in the 1700s when you had a de facto dictatorship, but which was not tolerated in the 1900s.

We know now what they should have done was tried the leaders in civilian court and imprisoned them in London (or shipped them off to Oz). They would have been seen to be treated fairly, and would be too disconnected from Dublin to direct any further insurrection.
However when you have an Imperial mindset in the midst of war, such concepts don't even come onto your radar. An empire in wartime treats everyone as a potential combatant and as such rules with military law rather than civil law.

LordSutch · 17-09-2015 10:52am

Nodin wrote: »

Now,now. You lost in the end. You're going to have to come to terms with that. When you next hold the drum you can tell the group what you miss most about the Empire.

Drum? I am not from an Orange background, just two humble Dublin backgrounds (on both sides of the family) who would have stood firmly against the rebels destruction of our city. Redmond supporters to the core.

recipio · 17-09-2015 11:39am

sdanseo wrote: »

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

Attitudes among the War Cabinet had hardened by 1916 - they were shooting their own soldiers for desertion so its not too surprising that the 1916 leaders were executed for high treason.
Redmond make a crucial mistake in not joining the cabinet whereas Carson was happy to oblige and had direct influence on the British administration.

Nodin · 17-09-2015 11:40am

LordSutch wrote: »

Drum? I am not from an Orange background, just two humble Dublin backgrounds (on both sides of the family) who would have stood firmly against the rebels destruction of our city. Redmond supporters to the core.

Don't worry, I don't believe in the whole "sins of the father" thing.

LordSutch · 17-09-2015 11:46am

Lucky for me.

Madam · 17-09-2015 11:50am

RobertKK wrote: »

It is what I believed for years. It also led to lots of records relating to Irish people being destroyed.

Let's not forget most of the locals didn't support the 1916 rising until the British carried out those executions.
The people didn't care about the proclamation.
It would have been accepted as total failure if the British hadn't executed the men.

Who were these 'locals' you speak of?

Madam · 17-09-2015 11:53am

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not saying it was right to execute the leaders, but what the hell was General Maxwell meant to do????

What should have been done with the rebels?

Maybe not do it with such glee?

LordSutch · 17-09-2015 2:49pm

Madam wrote: »

Who were these 'locals' you speak of?

I presume he is talking about the citizens of Dublin.

whisky_galore · 17-09-2015 4:44pm

realies wrote: »

They did not, as is sometimes thought, willingly seek martyrdom or a mystical 'blood sacrifice'. Rather they felt that a heroic gesture was required to reawaken the spirit of militant Irish nationalism.

Maybe the majority didn't, but Pearse certainly had his eye on martyrdom.

riffmongous · 17-09-2015 4:46pm

seamus wrote: »

I guess you can look at it as a good example of how Imperialism had become anachronistic and was crumbling in the face of "newer" forms of governance that were taking hold. Or more specifically at the new-found power the proletariat had after the industrial revolution improved living conditions and education levels in Europe.

WWI was a war unlike anything the empire had ever encountered before. While fighting the largest single war in the history of humanity on one front, they didn't know how to deal with a small insurrection on the other, and they dealt with it swiftly and brutally. A method that would have been just fine back in the 1700s when you had a de facto dictatorship, but which was not tolerated in the 1900s.

We know now what they should have done was tried the leaders in civilian court and imprisoned them in London (or shipped them off to Oz). They would have been seen to be treated fairly, and would be too disconnected from Dublin to direct any further insurrection.
However when you have an Imperial mindset in the midst of war, such concepts don't even come onto your radar. An empire in wartime treats everyone as a potential combatant and as such rules with military law rather than civil law.

It was simply how the empire worked, their 1700s strategies were still being used in Iraq, India, Malaysia, Cyprus, Kenya and Yemen and in a less extreme form in Northern Ireland and you can bet if they could have kept America and their own public's eyes off Ireland in the early 20s they would have been used here too.

One thing to bear in mind regarding the executions though is the number of people who were executed by the Free State government during the Civil War dwarfs that of 1916

recipio · 17-09-2015 5:51pm

War throws up fanatics who smell change in the air.No government would get away with simply laying a wreath on Collin's grave, such is the entrenched republican agenda in the ROI. I say leave our children out of it.

tomwaterford · 17-09-2015 6:29pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Drum? I am not from an Orange background, just two humble Dublin backgrounds (on both sides of the family) who would have stood firmly against the rebels destruction of our city. Redmond supporters to the core.

They have a very unflattering phrase in relation to Redmond around here :pac:

Nodin · 17-09-2015 7:30pm

recipio wrote: »

War throws up fanatics who smell change in the air.No government would get away with simply laying a wreath on Collin's grave, such is the entrenched republican agenda in the ROI. I say leave our children out of it.

A Republican agenda??

Honouring Republicans??????

In the Irish State??????????

That happens to be a Republic??????????????

Founded by Republicans??????????????????????????????

What Madness Is This?!!!!???!"!!!!!!!!!

Paramite Pie · 17-09-2015 8:04pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Ah, the old memory cells playing up again?

Remember. The 1916 rising was a very unpopular event within Dublin/Ireland itself.

...until/after the rebels were executed.

Ireland was heavily rural and most rural people probably had never set foot in Dublin -- it's hard to say if they were really & genuinely horrified at Dublin's destruction. In their eyes it was a "jackeen" city -- it's Georgian opulence far removed from their meagre lives. **i'm not saying this was right but it's accurate of the sentiment towards Dublin of that era -- however unfair

It was an unexpected event -- with little time to gauge a nationwide reaction before the executions began. The rebels were certainly marched through areas that had strong Union support in the aftermath and a lot of the Media like the Irish Times were Unionist in nature. Censorship was heavy

Trinity has several letters online written during the Rising to inform overseas family. I've skimmed these the general tone at the start of the rising seemed to have been excitment and people gathering to see what was going on. Browse for yourself.

http://www.tcd.ie/Library/1916/

It's a lot more complex than the Dubliners hated then then instantly revered it. We only know that the newspapers condemned it.

kingchess · 17-09-2015 8:51pm

Some posters give the impression that the best thing to do is not to tell the kids that they live in a Republic-maybe we should go all the way and do not tell them that they live in Ireland?? that way we will not corrupt their innocent little minds.

John_Rambo · 17-09-2015 9:14pm

kneemos wrote: »

And so it begins.Lord have mercy on us.

There's nothing to be ashamed of regarding the Irish National Flag, there's nothing to fear about young people being proud of it either. Young Scouts have been handling it for years. They are taught how to respect it, treat it, handle it and the general protocol around it. Most Scouts grow up to be successful well balanced individuals.

It's a good thing for everyone young growing up in Ireland. For young people that have emigrated to Ireland or arrived on our shores as refugees it will instill some idea of where they are and our history.

Nodin · 17-09-2015 9:47pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

There's nothing to be ashamed of regarding the Irish National Flag, there's nothing to fear about young people being proud of it either. Young Scouts have been handling it for years. They are taught how to respect it, treat it, handle it and the general protocol around it. Most Scouts grow up to be successful well balanced individuals.

It's a good thing for everyone young growing up in Ireland. For young people that have emigrated to Ireland or arrived on our shores as refugees it will instill some idea of where they are and our history.

Good man.

Sunnyisland · 18-09-2015 9:12am

The State funeral of Thomas Kent, one of 16 men executed following the 1916 Rising, will take place later today in his home village of Castlelyons in Co Cork.

More than 5,000 people filed past his coffin which lay in state at Collins Barracks in Cork City last night.

At midday today, with full military honours, Kent's remains will be brought from the Garrison Chapel in Collins Barracks to Cork Prison.

Kent's coffin will then begin its journey home, past Kent Railway Station, which was named after him in 1966.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0918/728609-thomas-kent-state-funeral/

It's great to see more than 5000 people filed past his coffin to show some respect to the men who fought for our Freedom.

Here is some more information on Tomas ceannt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kent

Hotblack Desiato · 20-09-2015 12:28pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are we really paying soldiers to do this crap? Really? Nationalism should stay out of schools, it's not appropriate for the government to push any kind of ideology on children. Our schools should be a blank canvas.

96% of primary schools teach religion as fact during school hours, and you're objecting to half an hour with a flag??

Iwasfrozen · 22-09-2015 12:39am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

96% of primary schools teach religion as fact during school hours, and you're objecting to half an hour with a flag??

How is that relevant? Remove religion from schools but remove nationalism and militancy from schools as well.

ToddyDoody · 22-09-2015 3:48am

Abortions for some, miniature replica flags for others

Hotblack Desiato · 23-09-2015 9:14am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How is that relevant? Remove religion from schools but remove nationalism and militancy from schools as well.

It's relevant because it happens every week (or even every day) and most people just shrug, kids are excluded from class over it, or forced to spend time colouring when they could be learning. They are made feel different (that's if they can get into the local school at all) just because their parents aren't of the 'right' religion

Yet here you are giving out about a half hour event once a century

Iwasfrozen · 24-09-2015 11:01pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's relevant because it happens every week (or even every day) and most people just shrug, kids are excluded from class over it, or forced to spend time colouring when they could be learning. They are made feel different (that's if they can get into the local school at all) just because their parents aren't of the 'right' religion

Yet here you are giving out about a half hour event once a century

... What?

I agree with you, religion has no place in schools. Neither does militancy, flag worship or nationalism. I dont know what you're actually complaining about.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-09-2015 12:12am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

... What?

I agree with you, religion has no place in schools. Neither does militancy, flag worship or nationalism. I dont know what you're actually complaining about.

Ok. It was your comment "it's not appropriate for the government to push any kind of ideology on children. Our schools should be a blank canvas."

..when churches are freely pushing their ideology in 96% of primary schools, at taxpayer expense. You simply cannot compare teaching religion as fact, the 'othering' and exclusion that goes on, shame, guilt, homophobia, etc. that goes along with it, to what is being proposed here.

Not even remotely comparable. So it seems bizarre to object strongly to the mouse in the room while ignoring the elephant.

Iwasfrozen · 25-09-2015 12:56am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ok. It was your comment "it's not appropriate for the government to push any kind of ideology on children. Our schools should be a blank canvas."

..when churches are freely pushing their ideology in 96% of primary schools, at taxpayer expense. You simply cannot compare teaching religion as fact, the 'othering' and exclusion that goes on, shame, guilt, homophobia, etc. that goes along with it, to what is being proposed here.

Not even remotely comparable. So it seems bizarre to object strongly to the mouse in the room while ignoring the elephant.

It's not odd at all to ignore the elephant when the discussion is about the mouse.

For what it's worth I agree schools should be secular. But that's not relevant to the topic...

Nodin · 25-09-2015 6:24am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

... What?

I agree with you, religion has no place in schools. Neither does militancy, flag worship or nationalism. I dont know what you're actually complaining about.

If you put "irish" in front of those three things, I'd believe this was an honest post.

Primary schools to get Tricolour for 1916 centenary

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