Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

03-08-2020 10:06pm

Overheal wrote: »

No. It would be a human rights violation.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/Nationality.aspx

edit: damn boards time machine

Then, it's obvious that we don't make new migrants citizens until they have passed a probationary period, which we deem to be appropriate. Since the State cannot revoke nationality, then, there should be more stringent tests involved before citizenship is awarded, which is within the rights of the State to do. A longer probationary period (10-15 years), during which the migrant, moves through a variety of conditions before finally reaching the actual citizenship processing. After which, they become a citizen, and have full rights as Irish, and can't be revoked.

Ireland is under no obligation to award migrants with citizenship. Many countries operate with much harder measures to achieve citizenship, with variety number of lesser conditions (through visas/permits) to allow migrants to stay within the country. Those visas/permits could be revoked dependent on the behavior of the migrant. Simple.

Gatling · 03-08-2020 11:50pm

Here's a case from may .

Albanian claimed Asylum ,then received citizenship masquerading as Kosovo war refugee jailed .
Just took 19 years for officials to realise he made bogus claim for asylum and citizenship

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/man-jailed-over-false-application-for-irish-citizenship-1.4260421%3fmode=amp

Overheal · 03-08-2020 11:51pm

Gatling wrote: »

Here's a case from may .

Albanian claimed Asylum ,then received citizenship masquerading as Kosovo war refugee jailed .

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/man-jailed-over-false-application-for-irish-citizenship-1.4260421%3fmode=amp

The system worked: he submitted a falsified application. You don't need a change in the law to prevent them from getting citizenship or having it later revoked.

Gatling · 04-08-2020 12:17am

Overheal wrote: »

The system worked: he submitted a falsified application. You don't need a change in the law to prevent them from getting citizenship or having it later revoked.

If the system worked it wouldn't have took 19 years ,

Hopefully we will see this Albanian striped of his citizenship and returned to Albania ,
Wonder if they will review the tens of thousands of others who got citizenship after masquerading as asylum seekers .

Never understand the mindset of people decrying deportation especially considering we've only managed something like 1400 over 20 years

Yurt2 · 04-08-2020 7:01am

Gatling wrote: »

Never understand the mindset of people decrying deportation especially considering we've only managed something like 1400 over 20 years

I did some quick google-fu to see how Ireland compared in 2019 for the number of deportations excecuted by similar sized developed countries:

Ireland: 292 (which thejournal.ie reports is about twice as many as '18 & '17)

Finland: 1,963

New Zealand: 453 (down from 642 in '18. Note: the NZ figures are deportations only executed by accompanying immigration officials. The figures for what they term as 'managed departures' where NZ manages and records the voluntary departure of people under deportation orders are much higher)

Norway: Couldn't find annual figures on a quick search, but a news article reveals they deported 453 individuals in September 2019 alone.

Belgium: 2,200

Denmark:: 1,970

I think the figures speak for themselves. Ireland appears to deport at a far lower rate than peer countries.

Edit: Having perused Eurostat, the Belgian figures were incorrect. Figures corrected and Denmark figures added.

hognef · 04-08-2020 9:40pm

Yurt! wrote: »

I did some quick google-fu to see how Ireland compared in 2019 for the number of deportations excecuted by similar sized developed countries:

Ireland: 292 (which thejournal.ie reports is about twice as many as '18 & '17)

Finland: 1,963

New Zealand: 453 (down from 642 in '18. Note: the NZ figures are deportations only executed by accompanying immigration officials. The figures for what they term as 'managed departures' where NZ manages and records the voluntary departure of people under deportation orders are much higher)

Norway: Couldn't find annual figures on a quick search, but a news article reveals they deported 453 individuals in September 2019 alone.

Belgium: 2,200

Denmark:: 1,970

I think the figures speak for themselves. Ireland appears to deport at a far lower rate than peer countries.

Edit: Having perused Eurostat, the Belgian figures were incorrect. Figures corrected and Denmark figures added.

In order to extract any meaningful information from those numbers, you'll need to also show how many were allowed into each of those countries.

Yurt2 · 05-08-2020 5:00pm

hognef wrote: »

In order to extract any meaningful information from those numbers, you'll need to also show how many were allowed into each of those countries.

I'll allow you do that.

I'm satisfied that we enforce deportations far less than similar sized countries and far less than we're led to believe by people who wish to undermine sensible immigration policy for whatever ideological reason.

Gatling · 05-08-2020 5:07pm

hognef wrote: »

In order to extract any meaningful information from those numbers, you'll need to also show how many were allowed into each of those countries.

Well we've had 60,000 + through direct provision here we've a 75% asylum refusal rate and only have deported 1300 over and 10 + year period ,
That also doesn't account for the 700,000+ immigrants who have come here to work and settle ( figures open to correction)

hognef · 05-08-2020 9:08pm

Yurt! wrote: »

I'll allow you do that.

I'm satisfied that we enforce deportations far less than similar sized countries and far less than we're led to believe by people who wish to undermine sensible immigration policy for whatever ideological reason.

2017:
Belgium - 12895 granted asylum, 1310 quota refugees accepted - total 14205.
Ireland - 840 granted asylum - total 840.

Combining the above with the deportation numbers:
Ireland deport 23 for every 100 that are allowed in, Belgium 15.

Granted, ins and outs will vary each year, but, based on the above, you definitely can't argue that Ireland deport far less than Belgium. Not saying you can't still be right overall, but your numbers by themselves prove absolutely nothing.

Edit:
Incidentally, my numbers also show that Ireland import far fewer than Belgium of people that "need" it (refugees, asylum seekers), in both absolute numbers and per capita (Belgium's population is roughly 2.5 times that of Ireland).

We probably do still import far more of people that just "want" it (EU citizens, for example).

Yurt2 · 05-08-2020 9:38pm

hognef wrote: »

2017:
Belgium - 12895 granted asylum, 1310 quota refugees accepted - total 14205.
Ireland - 840 granted asylum - total 840.

Combining the above with the deportation numbers:
Ireland deport 23 for every 100 that are allowed in, Belgium 15.

Granted, ins and outs will vary each year, but, based on the above, you definitely can't argue that Ireland deport far less than Belgium. Not saying you can't still be right overall, but your numbers by themselves prove absolutely nothing.

Edit:
Incidentally, my numbers also show that Ireland import far fewer than Belgium of people that "need" it (refugees, asylum seekers), in both absolute numbers and per capita (Belgium's population is roughly 2.5 times that of Ireland).

We probably do still import far more of people that just "want" it (EU citizens, for example).

Why are you conflating people granted asylum with deportations? I, or anyone else really, aren't interested in deporting genuine asylum claims. Rather in seeing deportation orders acted upon and immigration policy enforced.

Asylum claims will consist of a small sliver of non EEA entries into a state and will consist of a minority of immigration violations and overstays etc.

You can absolutely say that Ireland deports people at a far lower rate than similarly sized developed country. Our deportation figures only say nothing if you actively want them to say nothing. In absolute and relative terms, Ireland is not a deportation happy country. If you invite yourself in, the likelihood of you being given the road is very low indeed.

hognef · 05-08-2020 10:01pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Why are you conflating people granted asylum with deportations? I, or anyone else really, aren't interested in deporting genuine asylum claims. Rather in seeing deportation orders acted upon and immigration policy enforced.

Asylum claims will consist of a small sliver of non EEA entries into a state and will consist of a minority of immigration violations and overstays etc.

You can absolutely say that Ireland deports people at a far lower rate than similarly sized developed country. Our deportation figures only say nothing if you actively want them to say nothing. In absolute and relative terms, Ireland is not a deportation happy country. If you invite yourself in, the likelihood of you being given the road is very low indeed.

It's possible my numbers weren't the best choice, but it was an attempt to make your numbers relative to something. The absolute number of deported people means f*** all by itself, and don't provide any grounds to arrive at your conclusion.

I imagine Belgium accept far more non-EEA citizens than Ireland (refugees or asylum seekers or otherwise), and your numbers would need to be seen in that context.

Yurt2 · 05-08-2020 10:23pm

hognef wrote: »

It's possible my numbers weren't the best choice, but it was an attempt to make your numbers relative to something. The absolute number of deported people means f*** all by itself, and don't provide any grounds to arrive at your conclusion.

I imagine Belgium accept far more non-EEA citizens than Ireland (refugees or asylum seekers or otherwise), and your numbers would need to be seen in that context.

Here's some context for you. From 2014 to 2018, only (approx) 1 in 5 deportation orders were enforced. The minister for justice and INIS can't tell us about the other 4 out of 5. They don't know if they're in the state or not and don't appear to want to know or track if these people are exiting the state as other states do.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-09/280/

I suspect you'll make the case that this is a satisfactory state of affairs.

hognef · 05-08-2020 10:40pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Here's some context for you. From 2014 to 2018, only (approx) 1 in 5 deportation orders were enforced. The minister for justice and INIS can't tell us about the other 4 out of 5. They don't know if they're in the state or not and don't appear to want to know or track if these people are exiting the state as other states do.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-09/280/

I suspect you'll make the case that this is a satisfactory state of affairs.

Not at all. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that your numbers didn't go any way towards proving that you're right.

How does the 1 in 5 compare to other similarly-populated countries?

Yurt2 · 05-08-2020 11:42pm

hognef wrote: »

Not at all. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that your numbers didn't go any way towards proving that you're right.

How does the 1 in 5 compare to other similarly-populated countries?

When a country like Norway (roughly the same size population Ireland) are effecting more deportations in one month than Ireland does in a year, I think we don't need a hell of a lot of data to draw some obvious conclusions.

hognef · 06-08-2020 12:14am

Yurt! wrote: »

When a country like Norway (roughly the same size population Ireland) are effecting more deportations in one month than Ireland does in a year, I think we don't need a hell of a lot of data to draw some obvious conclusions.

If you say so.

06-08-2020 12:22am

hognef wrote: »

Not at all. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that your numbers didn't go any way towards proving that you're right.

How does the 1 in 5 compare to other similarly-populated countries?

Hold on a second. You're only arguing over the numbers, rather than his statement? (since you're not arguing that he's wrong). Um, seriously?

hognef · 06-08-2020 12:39am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hold on a second. You're only arguing over the numbers, rather than his statement? (since you're not arguing that he's wrong). Um, seriously?

Seriously.

06-08-2020 12:45am

ok

Yurt2 · 06-08-2020 12:56am

hognef wrote: »

If you say so.

I guess you're not interested in the fact that the minister of justice and INIS can't tell the Oireachtas where 4 out of 5 people that have been issued with deportation orders are.

The subtext on this is, I'd argue, is you're trying to soft-peddle the fact that Ireland doesn't do a particularly good job at tracking illegal migration and even when it does, enforces it lightly. Meanwhile, those of a particular bent try to characterise the system as one where deportation orders are issued arbitrarily. The exact opposite is true. If you want to go under the radar as an irregular migrant, Ireland is one of the best places to invite yourself to.

ELM327 · 06-08-2020 10:28am

Yes, would vote in favor, cant see it losing tbh.
Great idea for a referendum.

weldoninhio · 06-08-2020 10:45am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

what happens if someone is here years, gets married, has kids and then commits a crime?

Do you just strip them of citizenship and deport them?

They wouldn't have citizenship, thats the point.

ELM327 · 06-08-2020 11:04am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

what happens if someone is here years, gets married, has kids and then commits a crime?

Do you just strip them of citizenship and deport them?

Yup

hognef · 06-08-2020 1:15pm

Yurt! wrote: »

I guess you're not interested in the fact that the minister of justice and INIS can't tell the Oireachtas where 4 out of 5 people that have been issued with deportation orders are.

The subtext on this is, I'd argue, is you're trying to soft-peddle the fact that Ireland doesn't do a particularly good job at tracking illegal migration and even when it does, enforces it lightly. Meanwhile, those of a particular bent try to characterise the system as one where deportation orders are issued arbitrarily. The exact opposite is true. If you want to go under the radar as an irregular migrant, Ireland is one of the best places to invite yourself to.

Never said I wasn't interested or that that fact wasn't interesting, but you're the one who were using incomplete facts to prove that Ireland does a worse job than other countries. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you keep stating Ireland is different, without backing it up with anything useful.

In fact, you're probably right that what Ireland is doing is not good enough (after all, Ireland isn't exactly good at tracking its own citizens either - there's no national registry of people, we still rely on regular censuses, for example, while some countries know who are present to such an extent that they've done away with censuses), but, from what you've shown, you can't conclusively say that what Ireland is doing is significantly worse than other countries.

Yurt2 · 06-08-2020 9:43pm

hognef wrote: »

Never said I wasn't interested or that that fact wasn't interesting, but you're the one who were using incomplete facts to prove that Ireland does a worse job than other countries. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you keep stating Ireland is different, without backing it up with anything useful.

In fact, you're probably right that what Ireland is doing is not good enough (after all, Ireland isn't exactly good at tracking its own citizens either - there's no national registry of people, we still rely on regular censuses, for example, while some countries know who are present to such an extent that they've done away with censuses), but, from what you've shown, you can't conclusively say that what Ireland is doing is significantly worse than other countries.

Again, that's a soft-peddle. The rate of enforced deportations relative to deportation orders issues has been presented to you (as well as Charlie Flanagan admitting in the Dáil he doesn't know where most of the people who are subject to orders are), and the number of deportations by similar countries. We deport an unusually low amount of people given the influx of non EEA citizens to Ireland, which is no different from the influx Denmark / Finland / Norway have experienced.

'Conclusive' is a foggy a value judgement, I don't need to reach that standard to know there's a problem here. I suspect you know there is as well, but for whatever reason, you don't want to say it.

hognef · 06-08-2020 10:38pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Again, that's a soft-peddle. The rate of enforced deportations relative to deportation orders issues has been presented to you (as well as Charlie Flanagan admitting in the Dáil he doesn't know where most of the people who are subject to orders are), and the number of deportations by similar countries. We deport an unusually low amount of people given the influx of non EEA citizens to Ireland, which is no different from the influx Denmark / Finland / Norway have experienced.

'Conclusive' is a foggy a value judgement, I don't need to reach that standard to know there's a problem here. I suspect you know there is as well, but for whatever reason, you don't want to say it.

I've agreed that there's probably an issue here, but you're the one who is repeatedly "comparing" with other countries. You're doing it again here. By what metric are our deportation numbers "unusually low"? How many should we deport to be on a par with other countries? Do you know for sure that our "influx of non-EEA citizens" is no different from those other countries? For how long has this been true? Do you know for sure that those countries don't in fact have 10 times as many people "eligible" for deportation? Do you know for sure that Ireland receives as many people (per capita) from the countries most prone to deportation as the other countries?

Yurt2 · 06-08-2020 11:12pm

hognef wrote: »

I've agreed that there's probably an issue here, but you're the one who is repeatedly "comparing" with other countries. You're doing it again here. By what metric are our deportation numbers "unusually low"? How many should we deport to be on a par with other countries? Do you know for sure that our "influx of non-EEA citizens" is no different from those other countries? For how long has this been true? Do you know for sure that those countries don't in fact have 10 times as many people "eligible" for deportation? Do you know for sure that Ireland receives as many people (per capita) from the countries most prone to deportation as the other countries?

Take a look yourself...

https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=migr_eipre&lang=en

None of the countries I've referenced detect x10 the amount of illegals. In fact we're in line with all of them. And all of them deport at significantly higher rates than Ireland.

If you don't think we have a definitive enforcement problem after going through the above stats, well... I don't know what to say to you

hognef · 07-08-2020 1:14am

Yurt! wrote: »

Take a look yourself...

https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=migr_eipre&lang=en

None of the countries I've referenced detect x10 the amount of illegals. In fact we're in line with all of them. And all of them deport at significantly higher rates than Ireland.

If you don't think we have a definitive enforcement problem after going through the above stats, well... I don't know what to say to you

You're getting placed now. But...

Belgium 2200 deported you said.
Ireland 292 deported you said.

Your link shows, for 2019:
Belgium 17585 illegals detected
Ireland 1955 illegals detected

That's not far off a 10:1 ratio now, is it?

Again, combining the numbers, it would appear that Belgium deported 1 of 8 illegals, while Ireland deported 1 of 7.

Are you still convinced Belgium is doing significantly better than Ireland?

Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, just that your initial numbers did nothing to support your claim. The latest link appears to have relevant numbers and could probably help your case. Will done.

McGiver · 08-08-2020 9:19am

Yurt! wrote: »

When a country like Norway (roughly the same size population Ireland) are effecting more deportations in one month than Ireland does in a year, I think we don't need a hell of a lot of data to draw some obvious conclusions.

That's because they allow 10 times more in. Not a rocket science. You are using the numbers out of context. Either willingly to manipulate or unwillingly due to ignorance.

To achieve similar absolute numbers as Norway, Ireland would have to deport basically everyone. And that would be then relatively several times more than Norway do.

McGiver · 08-08-2020 9:22am

weldoninhio wrote: »

They wouldn't have citizenship, thats the point.

That is not OP's suggestion. Different topic altogether (and generally supported idea I'd say).

Removing acquired citizenship and creating stateless persons is a nonsense.

DelaneyIn · 16-08-2020 5:42pm

A naturalised citizen who went off to join ISIS has had his citizenship revoked. A very welcome development.

A man who left Ireland to fight for Isis in Syria in 2013 has had his citizenship revoked by Helen McEntee, the justice minister.

Alexandr Bekmirzaev, who obtained Irish citizenship in 2010, 11 years after immigrating from Belarus, is the first person to be affected since the Department of Justice put in place a mechanism to strip people of their status last year.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-fighter-alexandr-bekmirzaev-is-stripped-of-irish-citizenship-wr6c73f50

Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

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