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M50 Congestion

24567…22

Comments

  • #32
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Pete_Cavan wrote:
    Just because the car is the best mode for certain individuals given their particular circumstances, that doesn't change the fact that public transport is a far more efficient way of moving large number of people. Every time this fact is stated on here, we have people falling over themselves to tell us why they need their car despite it having no relevance to anything. We need more public transport, even if it is not usable for some people they will still benefit from it through less other drivers.

    That only applies if public transport is available for the route in question, or is available within a realistic timeframe.

    I started this thread describing a journey from Dalkey to near Blessington at about 5pm on a working day.

    You are welcome to tell me the alternative route and mode of transport I could/should have used.


  • #33
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,033 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    First Up wrote: »
    That only applies if public transport is available for the route in question, or is available within a realistic timeframe.

    I started this thread describing a journey from Dalkey to near Blessington at about 5pm on a working day.

    You are welcome to tell me the alternative route and mode of transport I could/should have used.
    I did not mention anything about an alternative route or taking public transport instead. I fully accept that some journeys and commutes are, and will always be, better done by car. That doesn't change the fact that public transport is more efficient at moving people or that we need to focus investment on pt.

    My point is that as soon as public transport is mentioned, we have people immediately justifying their car journey, even when their need for the journey by car was not questioned and it not being threatened by promoting public transport. A small number of people say they genuinely need their car, lots more row in behind despite not absolutely needing to commute by car, the argument becomes car v pt (even if car space is not being effected by said pt proposal) and this is used to ignore public transport investment. The defensive nature of your post highlights my point perfectly.


  • #34
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I did not mention anything about an alternative route or taking public transport instead. I fully accept that some journeys and commutes are, and will always be, better done by car. That doesn't change the fact that public transport is more efficient at moving people or that we need to focus investment on pt.

    My point is that as soon as public transport is mentioned, we have people immediately justifying their car journey, even when their need for the journey by car was not questioned and it not being threatened by promoting public transport. A small number of people say they genuinely need their car, lots more row in behind despite not absolutely needing to commute by car, the argument becomes car v pt (even if car space is not being effected by said pt proposal) and this is used to ignore public transport investment. The defensive nature of your post highlights my point perfectly.

    Maybe we're all just sick of being beaten with public transport on every single thread. Whether it's an answer or not (not the auto cure to all that you all think it is), the bores do more to put people off it than anything.

    Single occupancy cars, orbital this and that, etc - blah blah ****ing blah on every. bloody. thread.


  • #35
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,152 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I can get my kid to creche and me to work in 35 minutes, or I can do it in 3 hours. I spent a month doing the 3 hours in and 3 hours out. So I'm not plucking something from the air there. Tell me which is inefficient?

    It's not fair to look at 1 snapshot in isolation to the entire commute someone may be doing, and then pointing out the snapshot is a problem to be addressed.
    i don't think your example contradicts mine.
    the private car is highly flexible but inefficient.
    the luas is highly efficient but inflexible.


  • #36
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Single occupancy cars, orbital this and that, etc - blah blah ****ing blah on every. bloody. thread.

    That's the problem with reality, no matter which way you turn there it is.

    The M50 isn't clogged with trees or grass or something that can just be cleared out. It's clogged with cars because there are too many people using cars.

    The only way the M50 will become less clogged is if less people use cars.

    Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there is no other solution to this problem. Further expanding the M50 would be a massive effort and just pushed the problem further out so by the time that work would be done we'd be in the same place we are today.


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  • #37
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Pete_Cavan wrote:
    I did not mention anything about an alternative route or taking public transport instead. I fully accept that some journeys and commutes are, and will always be, better done by car. That doesn't change the fact that public transport is more efficient at moving people or that we need to focus investment on pt.


    Good point; wrong thread.


  • #38
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    sharper wrote: »
    That's the problem with reality, no matter which way you turn there it is.

    The M50 isn't clogged with trees or grass or something that can just be cleared out. It's clogged with cars because there are too many people using cars.

    The only way the M50 will become less clogged is if less people use cars.

    Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there is no other solution to this problem. Further expanding the M50 would be a massive effort and just pushed the problem further out so by the time that work would be done we'd be in the same place we are today.
    So how can one get fewer people to use cars via the M50 and other routes given the generally poor alternatives?


  • #39
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,033 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Maybe we're all just sick of being beaten with public transport on every single thread. Whether it's an answer or not (not the auto cure to all that you all think it is), the bores do more to put people off it than anything.

    Single occupancy cars, orbital this and that, etc - blah blah ****ing blah on every. bloody. thread.
    How is anyone beating you? A comparison was made (with figures) between the people carrying capacity of Luas v M50 and commuters piled in to day why their individual circumstances require them to travel by car. Again, nobody questions that, regardless of the availability of pt, commutes by car will still be required, that is the case in many cities and here would be no different. I'd say its the drivers doing the beating with their retaliate first attitude (even to things which won't limit their ability to drive but would benefit them if it reduces congestion on roads).


  • #40
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    is_that_so wrote: »
    So how can one get fewer people to use cars via te M50 and other routes given the generally poor alternatives?

    Create better alternatives. Bus Connects planned to greatly increase orbital connections but a lot of people with a large front garden and two cars parked in it suddenly became very worried about trees. I'm not even sure how the Metro went wrong, it seems to be possible to derail infrastructure projects just by throwing things at a wall and seeing what sticks.

    It's obvious that the status quo isn't ok, or at least it's obvious to those that commute anywhere near the M50 on a daily basis. Unfortunately the average journalist and politician does not so the national infrastructure conversation is dominated by the impact on leafy suburbs.


  • #41
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    sharper wrote:
    The only way the M50 will become less clogged is if less people use cars.

    Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there is no other solution to this problem.

    That isn't a solution; its a wish. How do you propose to make it happen?

    Meanwhile the M50 could be a bit less clogged if people used it properly.


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  • #42
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    First Up wrote: »
    That isn't a solution; its a wish. How do you propose to make it happen?

    Meanwhile the M50 could be a bit less clogged if people used it properly.

    The context here is public transport so that's the solution, no wishing involved. This problem has been solved elsewhere.

    The M50 is well beyond its design capacity. Using it properly might help a bit but the fundamental problem is the number of people using it.


  • #43
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    How is anyone beating you? A comparison was made (with figures) between the people carrying capacity of Luas v M50 and commuters piled in to day why their individual circumstances require them to travel by car. Again, nobody questions that, regardless of the availability of pt, commutes by car will still be required, that is the case in many cities and here would be no different. I'd say its the drivers doing the beating with their retaliate first attitude (even to things which won't limit their ability to drive but would benefit them if it reduces congestion on roads).

    This wasn't a PT thread.


  • #44
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    sharper wrote: »
    The context here is public transport so that's the solution, no wishing involved. This problem has been solved elsewhere.

    The M50 is well beyond its design capacity. Using it properly might help a bit but the fundamental problem is the number of people using it.

    People misusing it is a far bigger problem than it's given credit for, but that doesn't help push the PT agenda.


  • #45
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    amcalester wrote: »
    And piss poor driving.

    I hear this a lot but tbh it's complete and utter tripe. Irish drivers are some of the best in the world. Iv'e driven coach's and HGV's all around Europe and beyond as well as riding my motorbike in South America, Africa, Russia, Asia and the US and it's terrifying to see how bad driving is in some of these places. Yeah there are some dickwads on the roads here but the vast majority are competent.


  • #46
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    First Up wrote: »
    That only applies if public transport is available for the route in question, or is available within a realistic timeframe.

    I started this thread describing a journey from Dalkey to near Blessington at about 5pm on a working day.

    You are welcome to tell me the alternative route and mode of transport I could/should have used.

    Buy a motorbike/scooter


  • #47
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    I hear this a lot but tbh it's complete and utter tripe. Irish drivers are some of the best in the world. Iv'e driven coach's and HGV's all around Europe and beyond as well as riding my motorbike in South America, Africa, Russia, Asia and the US and it's terrifying to see how bad driving is in some of these places. Yeah there are some dickwads on the roads here but the vast majority are competent.

    In general we are not bad at all but something primal happens on the M50 and very heavy traffic does bring out the worst in people.


  • #48
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    is_that_so wrote: »
    In general we are not bad at all but something primal happens on the M50 and very heavy traffic does bring out the worst in people.

    It's the same everywhere tbh. Try Naples A56 if you want to see bad driving as one example. Makes the m50 drivers look like driving miss Daisy.
    I just get the feeling people who moan constantly about the M50 just don't seem to realise it's way past capacity and that's the issue here. If you don't want to be stuck in traffic find another way to travel besides a car. It's simple logic.


  • #49
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    It's the same everywhere tbh. Try Naples A56 if you want to see bad driving as one example. Makes the m50 drivers look like driving miss Daisy.
    I just get the feeling people who moan constantly about the M50 just don't seem to realise it's way past capacity and that's the issue here. If you don't want to be stuck in traffic find another way to travel besides a car. It's simple logic.
    If there is an actual option. More often than not there isn't. Capacity is not the only issue and many motorists just live in their own bubble and don't care how their behaviour might affect others nor how that influence overall traffic flow.


  • #50
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i don't think your example contradicts mine.
    the private car is highly flexible but inefficient.
    the luas is highly efficient but inflexible.

    You are looking at the wrong thing when trying to identify an efficient commute. It should not be measured on load. Time is the parameter that leads to waste.


  • #51
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    is_that_so wrote: »
    If there is an actual option. More often than not there isn't. Capacity is not the only issue and many motorists just live in their own bubble and don't care how their behaviour might affect others nor how that influence overall traffic flow.

    I agree some motorists are like that the same as anywhere else.


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  • #52
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    I hear this a lot but tbh it's complete and utter tripe. Irish drivers are some of the best in the world. Iv'e driven coach's and HGV's all around Europe and beyond as well as riding my motorbike in South America, Africa, Russia, Asia and the US and it's terrifying to see how bad driving is in some of these places. Yeah there are some dickwads on the roads here but the vast majority are competent.

    Just because others are worse, it doesn’t automatically follow that we are good.

    It only takes 1 dickhead changing lanes dangerously to cause a braking concertina effect that affects 100’s of motorists.


  • #53
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,152 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the M50 is way over capacity, and as such becomes extremely sensitive to shocks.
    yes, bad driving is an issue, but it's the overload which amplifies that effect.


  • #54
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    It's the same everywhere tbh. Try Naples A56 if you want to see bad driving as one example. Makes the m50 drivers look like driving miss Daisy.
    I just get the feeling people who moan constantly about the M50 just don't seem to realise it's way past capacity and that's the issue here. If you don't want to be stuck in traffic find another way to travel besides a car. It's simple logic.

    Plenty of the issues persist when the traffic isnt overly heavy. Passing junctions and the whole lot drops to 60kmh then back up after . This is purely down to bad driving.

    Leaving the m50 southboumd at the red cow , as you pass over the nangor road in the slip , every single time, the traffic brakes. ****ing idiots.


  • #55
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the M50 is way over capacity, and as such becomes extremely sensitive to shocks.
    yes, bad driving is an issue, but it's the overload which amplifies that effect.
    Not along its full length. There are a huge number of rat runners on it too - people who just go 1-2 junctions and then block up those junctions exiting. Traffic management plan coming which should help a little bit.

    https://extra.ie/2018/10/17/news/irish-news/m50-traffic-congestion-plan


  • #56
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,341 ✭✭✭markpb


    is_that_so wrote: »
    So how can one get fewer people to use cars via the M50 and other routes given the generally poor alternatives?

    Between 2008 and 2012, we spent a billion euro removing the toll booths and adding an extra lane to the M50. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that this would improve matters, no one has ever solved congestion on an urban motorway by adding more capacity. If we had spent that money on public transport instead, people would have far more options.


  • #57
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    markpb wrote:
    Between 2008 and 2012, we spent a billion euro removing the toll booths and adding an extra lane to the M50. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that this would improve matters, no one has ever solved congestion on an urban motorway by adding more capacity. If we had spent that money on public transport instead, people would have far more options.

    I think the problem is that most of us use the M50 as part of a journey to somewhere else and those "somewhere elses" are very scattered. Public transport on the M50 wouldn't solve anything; you would have to provide "door to door" public transport solutions covering a very wide area.


  • #58
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,341 ✭✭✭markpb


    First Up wrote: »
    I think the problem is that most of us use the M50 as part of a journey to somewhere else and those "somewhere elses" are very scattered. Public transport on the M50 wouldn't solve anything; you would have to provide "door to door" public transport solutions covering a very wide area.

    I've a feeling the bulk of the trips on the M50 are actually from suburban residential estates to suburban business parks. The next group are probably from towns near Dublin (Newbridge, Balbriggan, Drogheda) to suburban business parks. Both those groups could easily be served by feeder buses and enhanced rail lines which would leave the M50 for people who can't feasibility be served by public transport. This is how normal cities deal with transport, Dublin is no different.


  • #59
    rabbidpeach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭rabbidpeach


    markpb wrote: »
    I've a feeling the bulk of the trips on the M50 are actually from suburban residential estates to suburban business parks. The next group are probably from towns near Dublin (Newbridge, Balbriggan, Drogheda) to suburban business parks. Both those groups could easily be served by feeder buses and enhanced rail lines which would leave the M50 for people who can't feasibility be served by public transport. This is how normal cities deal with transport, Dublin is no different.
    As someone who lives in Drogheda, I'd agree with you there. What would work for me would be a more frequent (and reliable) bus service from Drogheda to Dublin Airport and a bus service from the airport down the Ballymun Road. I don't know how plausible it would be to extend the 4 to the airport but that would work. MetroLink would have been ideal for the local connection in Dublin but I can't wait that long!

    I'm sure you could say "well the bus network isn't designed to suit you" but I can't be the only person looking for an airport link to/from Ballymun.


  • #60
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    markpb wrote: »
    Between 2008 and 2012, we spent a billion euro removing the toll booths and adding an extra lane to the M50. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that this would improve matters, no one has ever solved congestion on an urban motorway by adding more capacity. If we had spent that money on public transport instead, people would have far more options.
    It might have helped a bit but as always the answers are more complicated. Planning or lack thereof has turned Dublin into a huge sprawl with a fairly low overall population, which public transport will always struggle to cover.

    Even the M50 itself was a very solid idea, i.e linking all the major roads to Dublin to a single conduit, except it became a prime spot to build any amount of industrial or business space and shopping outlets.

    What we needed and still need is a true regionalisation approach, not the McCreevy political cut and paste nonsense but one that can have good strong hubs to attract both companies and potential employees to view other past of the country as a good option.


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  • #61
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    There's two issues here; (1) why does someone take their car instead of public transport and (2) if they take their car, why do they use the M50.

    The answer to (1) is obviously that public transport doesn't meet their needs. The answer to (2) is less obvious but taking an hour to travel two junctions would greatly increase my disposition towards alternatives.


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