BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Qrt · 11-12-2019 8:54pm

My submission was mostly “please increase the proposed frequency” and asking for the proposed 240 to be...reproposed.

I live beside the red line so the buses to town don’t really bother me too much.!

Spanish Eyes · 11-12-2019 9:01pm

Buses at your doorstep is or should be a long gone concept now.

Walk five minutes and get there far quicker in the long run.

Should be on big spines with priority and QUICK. That is what everyone commuting wants surely?

And I do realise that is the thinking behind this.

AlekSmart · 11-12-2019 9:07pm

Qrt wrote: »

My submission was mostly “please increase the proposed frequency” and asking for the proposed 240 to be...reproposed.

I live beside the red line so the buses to town don’t really bother me too much.!

As do I,however I notice a worrying increase of Luas downtime,due to "technical issues"
The new Maintenance Contract may have something to do with it,but it sure needs to be watched ?

Qrt · 11-12-2019 9:35pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

As do I,however I notice a worrying increase of Luas downtime,due to "technical issues"
The new Maintenance Contract may have something to do with it,but it sure needs to be watched ?

Yeah definitely, needs an eye.

thomasj · 12-12-2019 1:07am

Its baffling that they still think peak hours is 7-8 and 4-5.

Daith · 12-12-2019 10:09am

thomasj wrote: »

Its baffling that they still think peak hours is 7-8 and 4-5.

What really?

thomasj · 12-12-2019 12:22pm

Daith wrote: »

What really?

Well if you look at the peak services document , the majority of services will run 7-8 and 4-5 some 4-6

salmocab · 12-12-2019 7:47pm

thomasj wrote: »

Well if you look at the peak services document , the majority of services will run 7-8 and 4-5 some 4-6

Is that because from 7 they have all their busses on the road but by 8 they’ve slowed down due to traffic so deliver less runs?

Victor · 12-12-2019 8:11pm

thomasj wrote: »

Its baffling that they still think peak hours is 7-8 and 4-5.

That's when they leave their terminus. Many of those buses will still be en-route at 8:45.

TheChrisD wrote: »

There is zero chance you would fit buses in through Ongar village.

I don't mean the frozen food aisle in Dunnes, there is a big roundabout outside they could use.

Last Stop · 13-12-2019 5:43pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

You can see how knowledgeable JW is on public transport issues on Twitter.

But you can't beat know-nothing councillors chasing the votes of a couple of coffin dodgers.

He is also (naturally) very bias to the success stories and tries to distance himself from projects when they don’t go to plan like in Wellington.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/lessons-from-down-under-how-not-to-do-busconnects-1.3661640

From his tweet after the last iteration it appears he has done the same in Dublin.

A lot of the proposals for Dublin make sense but it falls away on the details.
- It’s clear that he lacks the local knowledge of infrastructural deficiencies etc. and to be fair, he should have had better back up from the local consultants in both the NTA and Aecom
- He is also too rigid in his use of the spine and local route model. There are several instances where it would make far more sense to combine local routes run them to the city centre instead of getting people to interchange. I think this is because he is so used to working on cities which are laid out in a grid system where it probably does make sense. In a more complex city like Dublin this type of model needs more adaptation which I don’t think he has managed to do.

If you look at what he did for the first consultation, it was clear that it was too engineering focused and not easily understandable. Unfortunately, the second consultation has gone the opposite way and offers far less detail and comparing the two is extremely difficult. Again it’s probably an NTA problem but they really should have hired both a comms team and a good graphic designer from they very start. Kevin Carter did good work after the horse had bolted.

To be fair though, for the price he cost it was great value for money even just as a base which can be tweaked and adapted

MJohnston · 13-12-2019 5:56pm

"People are blaming Jarrett Walker, but it’s not his design that was actually implemented"

Same problem in Dublin - spineless local and national authorities that won't put in the necessary funding for infrastructure leading to massive compromises.

Good to know that Auckland benefitted from a properly implemented Walker-designed plan though.

MJohnston · 13-12-2019 5:58pm

Also lol at the idea that NTA just needed to spend a wee bit more money to convince the public about changes...that's....naive, to put it mildly.

Last Stop · 13-12-2019 6:13pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Also lol at the idea that NTA just needed to spend a wee bit more money to convince the public about changes...that's....naive, to put it mildly.

It was always going to be a difficult sell but they made it even more difficult for themselves by presenting it as they did. It was an engineering design which the ordinary person couldn’t follow. This led to significant amounts of misinformation being thrown about. I recall some giving out that the A route and the A1 route were different and they would have to change buses to get into town.
A little extra investment would have solved a lot of these sort of comments allowing focus on the real concerns and would have been money extremely well spent.

cgcsb · 13-12-2019 9:51pm

Last Stop wrote: »

It was always going to be a difficult sell but they made it even more difficult for themselves by presenting it as they did. It was an engineering design which the ordinary person couldn’t follow. This led to significant amounts of misinformation being thrown about. I recall some giving out that the A route and the A1 route were different and they would have to change buses to get into town.
A little extra investment would have solved a lot of these sort of comments allowing focus on the real concerns and would have been money extremely well spent.

That was just crass stupidity, lack of reading ability and being unable to read a map.

Qrt · 13-12-2019 10:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That was just crass stupidity, lack of reading ability and being unable to read a map.

Yeah, there’s a lot to be said for BusConnects’ opposition coming entirely from people’s complete lack of reading ability.

Zebra3 · 14-12-2019 12:09am

cgcsb wrote: »

That was just crass stupidity, lack of reading ability and being unable to read a map.

A lot of it was just pure gombeenism.

"Save the 53A". :rolleyes:

Last Stop · 14-12-2019 12:22am

The above is 100% correct and that’s the point. Some people cannot read maps like others can. The information has to be laid out in as clear a format as possible.
The vast majority of people who read this thread probably had no problem reading it but the fact they are reading this thread suggests they have an interest in transport and are more likely to understand maps etc.

The funny thing is that the NTA have already done the hard work with the new rout maps at bus stops, they just didn’t transfer it over to the public consultation.

There is an lot of information to take in. I know they have done the route mapper this time round but again this is quite one dimensional. What would have been extremely handy is if they had an interactive map of all the routes where you could click on a specific route and see it from start to finish. That way you could understand it more.

Again I’ll reiterate the point about a comms team. While I have no doubt that Jarrett Walker and the NTA have put in a huge amount of work, they are too close to the project to be able to explain it to the public. What they needed to do was to hand over all the information to a comms team who specialise in this kind of thing and say “explain that in plain english”. You can have the reports there as well but the main part should be clear to a child essentially.

cgcsb · 14-12-2019 10:04am

You don't need an engineering degree to read and understand a map or the paragraph of text explaining the spine system. There was literally nothing the NTA could do to stop the functionally illiterate with big mouths mouthing off. The same people can't use the mapper function or won't try.

sharper · 14-12-2019 10:25am

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't need an engineering degree to read and understand a map or the paragraph of text explaining the spine system. There was literally nothing the NTA could do to stop the functionally illiterate with big mouths mouthing off. The same people can't use the mapper function or won't try.

I don't think the problem is so much stupid people but opportunistic politicians.

Yes people should go and read the maps so they understand everything but why do that when someone you trust (your local TD "that gets things done") is telling you it's bad? What about they tell you you're losing your bus and a simple glance at the plan shows this is true, there's no sign of your bus on it?

Then you get a critical mass of people that repeat what the politician said and now "everyone is saying this is worse".

Also consider a particular councillor that's now running as a TD only claims to want event better transport like a metro, wants to protect communities and is like, totally, against pollution and stuff. A lot of people have taken her at her word and if you follow read what they say on twitter then in any other context they're pro public transport but have been convinced bus connects is bad.

Last Stop · 14-12-2019 10:29am

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't need an engineering degree to read and understand a map or the paragraph of text explaining the spine system. There was literally nothing the NTA could do to stop the functionally illiterate with big mouths mouthing off.

I’ve just told you there is something they could have done. While your above point is valid, the first public consultation wasn’t clear, they changed it this time around but there are many elements which could have been clearer.

cgcsb · 14-12-2019 11:14am

Last Stop wrote: »

I’ve just told you there is something they could have done. While your above point is valid, the first public consultation wasn’t clear, they changed it this time around but there are many elements which could have been clearer.

And im telling you it wouldn't have mattered a jot.
Not that it matters now, we'll be getting a fudged bus connects that won't improve journey times because we have no way of enforcing bus priority unless we get a new transport minister.

MJohnston · 14-12-2019 12:17pm

sharper wrote: »

I don't think the problem is so much stupid people but opportunistic politicians.

Yes people should go and read the maps so they understand everything but why do that when someone you trust (your local TD "that gets things done") is telling you it's bad? What about they tell you you're losing your bus and a simple glance at the plan shows this is true, there's no sign of your bus on it?

Then you get a critical mass of people that repeat what the politician said and now "everyone is saying this is worse".

Also consider a particular councillor that's now running as a TD only claims to want event better transport like a metro, wants to protect communities and is like, totally, against pollution and stuff. A lot of people have taken her at her word and if you follow read what they say on twitter then in any other context they're pro public transport but have been convinced bus connects is bad.

The media are also fairly complicit in this. Arguably it’s their job to synthesise complex plans into news for the public, and use expert opinion to provide flavour and direction. Instead, we mostly get a series of click bait voxpops from concerned commuters and opportunistic politicians. Very little from those with positive opinions (doesn’t provide the same dramatic headlines) and very little from an objective perspective.

lawred2 · 14-12-2019 12:19pm

Got a surprise opening this thread to see that it was started 3 years ago. Remember the day it was created. Nothing ever gets done here.

sharper · 14-12-2019 12:25pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The media are also fairly complicit in this. Arguably it’s their job to synthesise complex plans into news for the public, and use expert opinion to provide flavour and direction. Instead, we mostly get a series of click bait voxpops from concerned commuters and opportunistic politicians. Very little from those with positive opinions (doesn’t provide the same dramatic headlines) and very little from an objective perspective.

Almost everything in the Irish Times is written from the perspective of car commuters in nice quiet areas close to the city so the status quo is pretty much perfect for them.

They did manage to publish something recently highlighting the plight of the average commuter. This segment of the population is enormous yet the conversation is always dominated by small special interests https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/commuter-hell-my-daily-commute-is-affecting-my-mental-health-1.4109774

sharper · 14-12-2019 12:28pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Got a surprise opening this thread to see that it was started 3 years ago. Remember the day it was created. Nothing ever gets done here.

Still 3 years away from the redesign being fully implemented and 7 years away from the infrastructure upgrades being complete.

Someone that just graduated college when the plan was announced will be in their early/mid 30s by its completion and have advanced to being reasonably senior in their career.

thomasj · 14-12-2019 4:38pm

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

MJohnston · 14-12-2019 5:54pm

thomasj wrote: »

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

Why was there a 39a right behind yours? Was it schedule bunching?

thomasj · 14-12-2019 6:23pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Why was there a 39a right behind yours? Was it schedule bunching?

Yeah it was schedule bunching. Traffic in the area is a problem at this time usually. Could be waiting 20 minutes on a bus and then 2 or 3 show up

cgcsb · 14-12-2019 8:46pm

thomasj wrote: »

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

Why would it be any different under bus connects? Because the bunching issue won't be solved outside of the core bus corridors

starbaby2003 · 16-12-2019 10:32am

thomasj wrote: »

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

On our bus route you are not allowed use the disability space for a buggy. I have seen people being refused if they don’t fold up their buggy and there is already a buggy in the buggy space. There definitely shouldn’t be three buggies on a bus either way.

Victor · 16-12-2019 1:30pm

thomasj wrote: »

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It would depend on where in Huntstown. https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5375481#map=14/53.4035/-6.4130

The B2 and 264 are each every 15 minutes and there will be 4 route 360 departures between 7 and 8am. People will also be able to go the 'wrong way' to Clonsilla station. https://busconnects.ie/media/1624/blanchardstown-accordian-leaflet-260919-fa-web.pdf

trellheim · 16-12-2019 2:28pm

As a 39a regular you very rarely see buggy users being asked or told to fold.

Bunching is *extremely* common due to the high usage and limited places to overtake.

This leads me to a question : Do Dublin bus track their buses with gPS ? I presume so - if so do they provide the data in an open form ? you could analyze it to try and find mitigators for the worst bunch points

punisher5112 · 16-12-2019 3:28pm

starbaby2003 wrote: »

On our bus route you are not allowed use the disability space for a buggy. I have seen people being refused if they don’t fold up their buggy and there is already a buggy in the buggy space. There definitely shouldn’t be three buggies on a bus either way.

Where is this?

db rules on this are one buggy on any bus from 2013 onwards and a wheelchair or 2 buggies but the one on last has to be told they may need to fold and are to be asked to do so.....

I've yet to have one that will actually fold and I've sadly had to leave many wheelchair users behind.

Another thing is them 4 wheel mobility scooters as they can use the space too.... They must acquire a licence from db head office to do so though.

Had one got on before it took her 15 minutes to actually get it in and on and she only went 3 stops.... I was very late on that run...

punisher5112 · 16-12-2019 3:30pm

trellheim wrote: »

As a 39a regular you very rarely see buggy users being asked or told to fold.

Bunching is *extremely* common due to the high usage and limited places to overtake.

This leads me to a question : Do Dublin bus track their buses with gPS ? I presume so - if so do they provide the data in an open form ? you could analyze it to try and find mitigators for the worst bunch points

GPS linked but not available to anyone outside of the NTA or db.
Any reason for buses catching others such as traffic, amount of lights caught at, passenger loading, incidents on route such as passenger issues or collision etc, the bus behind may get a clear run so catches up.

starbaby2003 · 17-12-2019 7:11pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Where is this?

db rules on this are one buggy on any bus from 2013 onwards and a wheelchair or 2 buggies but the one on last has to be told they may need to fold and are to be asked to do so.....

I've yet to have one that will actually fold and I've sadly had to leave many wheelchair users behind.

Another thing is them 4 wheel mobility scooters as they can use the space too.... They must acquire a licence from db head office to do so though.

Had one got on before it took her 15 minutes to actually get it in and on and she only went 3 stops.... I was very late on that run...

4 - monkstown towards town

AlekSmart · 17-12-2019 7:34pm

starbaby2003 wrote: »

4 - monkstown towards town

The Busdriver does not have discretion in this matter..on any BAC route.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Accessibility/Passengers-with-buggies/

Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.

Low-floor buses are designed so that buggies can remain unfolded in the wheelchair space if it is free. Please make sure the buggy is safely positioned and the brake is on, unfolded buggies cannot travel in the gangway. You should be able to board any low-floor bus with a buggy. If the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to board safely, he may refuse you boarding. The driver will not ask anybody already travelling to get off the bus to make room.

If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board when there is an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space, the driver will ask you to fold the buggy and either put it in the luggage space or keep it by your side.

On all new buses there is both a wheelchair space and a buggy space, buggy owners may use both spaces but the buggy owner in the wheelchair space must move out of this space if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus.

In the event of a Wheelchair user presenting for travel and the Wheelchair Space being occupied by an occupied buggy,the Busdriver MUST request the Buggy owner to fold & stow the buggy and vacate the Wheelchair space,however should the Buggy owner refuse this request,the Busdriver has NO power to force them to comply,and the Wheelchair user must be declined access.

Current Equality legislation does not allow for positive action to enforce Disabled Access.

devnull · 18-12-2019 8:09pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Is the blue being taken out of the livery altogether or is it being kept with a new colour variation?

Yellow and Green are to be the new colours unless there is a late change.

This will also be the case at bus stops and for branding, literature etc.

p_haugh · 18-12-2019 9:13pm

devnull wrote: »

Yellow and Green are to be the new colours unless there is a late change.

This will also be the case at bus stops and for branding, literature etc.

Could be doing something along the lines of the DB hybrid livery then?

Joker2019 · 18-12-2019 10:19pm

devnull wrote: »

Yellow and Green are to be the new colours unless there is a late change.

This will also be the case at bus stops and for branding, literature etc.

Will such a livery be just for Dublin or will it be used across the country I wonder.

Breezer · 19-12-2019 8:35pm

An interesting article in The Irish Times today:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/self-driving-vehicles-will-render-transport-landscape-obsolete-1.4119602

Self-driving vehicles will render transport landscape obsolete
Do we really need four new lanes blasting through quiet villages or city centres?

It’s paywalled, but the gist is that there is a new law allowing for the testing of driverless cars on Irish roads. In the future, when we have less private cars and more driverless cars, we won’t need as much road space. Therefore, do we really need to widen roads for BusConnects?

While the cynic in me feels this is yet another BusConnects smear article, the journalist makes a good point. I’ve always felt that a problem with BusConnects is that it still ensures plenty of road space for cars. Do we really need this? Absolutely put the bus and cycle lanes in, but do we need to keep providing for cars? Could we, in a lot of cases, use the existing road space, reassigned to buses and cycling?

Of course, no Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael politician is going to sign off on that, so I’ll take the current BusConnects over nothing.

MJohnston · 19-12-2019 8:56pm

That idea is, to put it mildly, absolute horseshït. Self driving cars are still single occupancy vehicles, they will solve nothing. There's already a form of multi-occupancy vehicle that you can use in this city where you don't have to drive it.

Also the idea that four lane roads are being created for buses...feck the Irish Times. A complete disaster of a national newspaper.

lawred2 · 19-12-2019 8:59pm

MJohnston wrote: »

That idea is, to put it mildly, absolute horseshït. Self driving cars are still single occupancy vehicles, they will solve nothing. There's already a form of multi-occupancy vehicle that you can use in this city where you don't have to drive it.

Also the idea that four lane roads are being created for buses...feck the Irish Times. A complete disaster of a national newspaper.

Who decreed that they can only be single occupancy vehicles?

Qrt · 19-12-2019 9:02pm

I did a whole module in college on self driving cars and the result was that air pollution would be the same, traffic would likely get worse because it would cannibalise PT numbers, but reduce the amount of parking needed.

strandroad · 19-12-2019 9:11pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Who decreed that they can only be single occupancy vehicles?

Self driving car is no better a regular car in terms of occupancy. And there will be more cars on the road when even non-drivers can travel by car on their own.

lawred2 · 19-12-2019 9:23pm

strandroad wrote: »

Self driving car is no better a regular car in terms of occupancy. And there will be more cars on the road when even non-drivers can travel by car on their own.

No doubt

But can there not be a self driving bus?

devnull · 19-12-2019 9:23pm

Joker2019 wrote: »

Will such a livery be just for Dublin or will it be used across the country I wonder.

First glimpses of the new branding can be found on the pole here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/49243590698/

MJohnston · 19-12-2019 9:56pm

lawred2 wrote: »

No doubt

But can there not be a self driving bus?

There can, but what's the benefit?

I mean specifically in traffic terms, obviously having unlimited, dynamic driver capacity would be useful.

thomasj · 19-12-2019 9:58pm

devnull wrote: »

First glimpses of the new branding can be found on the pole here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/49243590698/

Looks very similar to the bus stop at broombridge luas bar the colours.

Slutmonkey57b · 19-12-2019 10:10pm

MJohnston wrote: »

That idea is, to put it mildly, absolute horseshït. Self driving cars are still single occupancy vehicles, they will solve nothing. There's already a form of multi-occupancy vehicle that you can use in this city where you don't have to drive it.

Also the idea that four lane roads are being created for buses...feck the Irish Times. A complete disaster of a national newspaper.

Middle class Irish times journalists living in Rathgar naturally see a Tesla as the solution to the transport crisis. It's expensive, flashy, smug and fundamentally no real improvement over the status quo. Most importantly, you don't have to mix with the proles.

p_haugh · 19-12-2019 10:20pm

devnull wrote: »

First glimpses of the new branding can be found on the pole here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/49243590698/

That looks a lot better! Weird to see a non Dublin reg TFI bus.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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