Nationality/Ethnicity of the Black and Tans?

riffmongous · 25-04-2013 9:48pm #1

Something I have wondered a few times now is if there is any records on the exact.. I will say ethnicity, of the members of the Black and Tans? I usually see them described as 'British' first world war veterans, but it would be very interesting to see if any and then how many of them were actually Irish.

I just got the idea a few years ago when I found out how much of the RIC was Irish, I always had the idea that they were actually English, seems silly now but it was something I think I just picked up in school, that's how they were presented.

Fratton Fred · 26-04-2013 7:51am

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

gobnaitolunacy · 26-04-2013 8:03am

Is there a distinction being made here between the RIC proper, 'Temporary Constables' better known as the B n T's, Auxiliaries and or are we lumping them all into the cover-all term of 'Black & Tan'?

Jawgap · 26-04-2013 8:34am

There a decent enough article here - giving the data you're looking for.

Interestingly, it says there 28 different nationalities represented in the Black and Tans and the Auxies!

pedroeibar1 · 26-04-2013 11:55am

Interesting that the ratio of UK recruits was about 4 : 1 Permanent : Temporary whereas for Ireland it was about 50:50

ganger · 26-04-2013 1:47pm

Jawgap wrote: »

There a decent enough article here - giving the data you're looking for.

Interestingly, it says there 28 different nationalities represented in the Black and Tans and the Auxies!

Very interesting ,,i see 7 born in co.carlow !!!.How would i find out more about these particular guys ..ie service records.

rollcall · 26-04-2013 2:03pm

There is a very good article by a Canadian academic called David Leeson that was in an old issue of History Ireland magazine, he has since written a book on the subject. I hope that this link works;

http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

Jawgap · 26-04-2013 2:06pm

ganger wrote: »

Very interesting ,,i see 7 born in co.carlow !!!.How would i find out more about these particular guys ..ie service records.

Yep

riffmongous · 26-04-2013 5:38pm

Some fantastic links there guys, thanks a lot, exactly what I was looking for!

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Is there a distinction being made here between the RIC proper, 'Temporary Constables' better known as the B n T's, Auxiliaries and or are we lumping them all into the cover-all term of 'Black & Tan'?

The more detailed the information the better.

nuac · 26-04-2013 9:28pm

thanks for the links. Very interesting.

kabakuyu · 27-04-2013 12:30am

A more interesting statistic would be how many of the catholic members were pro union, we always assume every catholic was pro independence but this was not the case.A small minority of catholics had a stake in the union and there were also those who joined up out of economic necessity, either way statistics only tell us so much.

Sound of Silence · 27-04-2013 2:42am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

I realise that the above quote is essentially just conjecture, but I'll entertain it. The idea that the Tans consisted almost exclusively of English recruits would not have been a particularly controversial view to hold during the War of Independence. The English did represent the majority of the force's recruits, amounting to around 60% of its total number.

This view would likely have been perpetuated by the fact that little distinction would have been made of the numerous British accents possessed by 78% of the force. The rural population in Ireland during this period simply did not have access to wireless radios at that time, so the nuances of the many British accents - be they Scottish or Welsh - would more than likely have been lost on the local population, or simply ignored.

riffmongous · 27-04-2013 11:46am

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I realise that the above quote is essentially just conjecture, but I'll entertain it. The idea that the Tans consisted almost exclusively of English recruits would not have been a particularly controversial view to hold during the War of Independence. The English did represent the majority of the force's recruits, amounting to around 60% of its total number.

This view would likely have been perpetuated by the fact that little distinction would have been made of the numerous British accents possessed by 78% of the force. The rural population in Ireland during this period simply did not have access to wireless radios at that time, so the nuances of the many British accents - be they Scottish or Welsh - would more than likely have been lost on the local population, or simply ignored.

That sounds reasonable, but one important aspect of Fred's post is that this view was held for quite a long time and it seems there wasn't anything done to challenge it until recently. Does anyone have access to the current Irish junior cert history textbook? How does it describe the opposing forces?

Sound of Silence · 27-04-2013 1:20pm

riffmongous wrote: »

That sounds reasonable, but one important aspect of Fred's post is that this view was held for quite a long time and it seems there wasn't anything done to challenge it until recently. Does anyone have access to the current Irish junior cert history textbook? How does it describe the opposing forces?

I actually have a textbook somewhere in the house from my key stage 3 History Class, which is roughly equivalent to the Junior Cert. If I can find it anywhere I will make sure to have a look through it.

But I honestly can't recall any mention of their actual Nationality beyond the fact that many were former members of the British Military, and a pretty significant number may likely have been suffering from a form of PTSD. Ultimately it was their actions and behavior which took precident over their Nationality in the eyes of the Irish people.

The idea that varying perceptions of a conflict can exist is not exactly a strange idea, rather its an accepted reality. In the same way that not all members of the Tans were English, we could reiterate to some people that not all Irish Revolutionaries were Catholic, or even Irish for that matter.

For those who are not particularly interested in History it would be fair to say that these laws of absolutes are often a more comforting and easier to digest as an approach to the past - be it the idea of absolute good and absolute evil - because ultimately its an area which they have not invested their time in.

goose2005 · 27-04-2013 2:24pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

And often described as hand-picking the most brutal, shellshocked veterans to go to Ireland - as if those would be the first!

Sound of Silence wrote: »

But I honestly can't recall any mention of their actual Nationality beyond the fact that many were former members of the British Military, and a pretty significant number may likely have been suffering from a form of PTSD. Ultimately it was their actions and behavior which took precident over their Nationality in the eyes of the Irish people.

Also I think they were poorly organised and disciplined - it didn't help that even the British government had no real idea what they wanted to do with Ireland, so troops on the ground certainly had no real clue.

Coles · 28-04-2013 8:44am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

This is complete nonsense. Perhaps you could explain why you posted it?

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 10:55am

Jawgap wrote: »

There a decent enough article here - giving the data you're looking for.

That was excellent. Do we have the names and addresses of all the Irish-born recruits?

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 10:57am

Also, what precisely was the difference between the Auxies and the Black and Tans? (His article is not clear on this point).

And by, say, June 1921 what percentage of the mainstream RIC was Irish-born Catholic and what percentage of the same force's *management* was Irish-born Catholic? How does that compare with the figures in, say, January 1919?

robp · 28-04-2013 4:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

Less than 6% were Irish born but plenty were from the 6 counties so it might be even less.

tac foley · 28-04-2013 5:30pm

robp wrote: »

Less than 6% were Irish born but plenty were from the 6 counties so it might be even less.

That's a very strange delineation to try and describe with any degree of accuracy. At the time of the Troubles there was NO 'six-counties' seperatism - ALL 32 counties counted as Ireland. In that case EVERYBODY born on the island of Ireland was Irish by definition.

tac

Fratton Fred · 28-04-2013 6:30pm

Coles wrote: »

This is complete nonsense. Perhaps you could explain why you posted it?

I got my percentages a bit off, other than that, what is rubbish?

kabakuyu · 28-04-2013 6:42pm

tac foley wrote: »

That's a very strange delineation to try and describe with any degree of accuracy. At the time of the Troubles there was NO 'six-counties' seperatism - ALL 32 counties counted as Ireland. In that case EVERYBODY born on the island of Ireland was Irish by definition.

tac

Good point Tac but they did not the majority of the PUL community stress that they were not Irish but were in fact Ulster Scots and most definitely not Irish.

johnny_doyle · 28-04-2013 6:55pm

as well as listing Co Clare Republican's killed, civilians killed etc, Blood on the Banner by Padraig Og O Ruairc lists 15 Co Clare men who joined the Auxies (14 RC, 1 Protestant) and 46 Co Clare men who joined the B&T's (39 RC, 1 Presbyterian, 5 Protestant)

Coles · 28-04-2013 6:58pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I got my percentages a bit off, other than that, what is rubbish?

All of it. Sure your percentages were off (by a factor of 5?), but then you followed it up with a claim that you can provide no reference or link to support. So anyway, why did you post it?

belcampprisoner · 28-04-2013 7:06pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 7:20pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

as well as listing Co Clare Republican's killed, civilians killed etc, Blood on the Banner by Padraig Og O Ruairc lists 15 Co Clare men who joined the Auxies (14 RC, 1 Protestant) and 46 Co Clare men who joined the B&T's (39 RC, 1 Presbyterian, 5 Protestant)

Your figure for Clare jumped off the page. Was this a typo on your part, as the earlier mentioned website by Tom Toomey says there was only 6 people born in Clare in the Black and Tans?

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 7:29pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

robp wrote: »

Less than 6% were Irish born but plenty were from the 6 counties so it might be even less.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I got my percentages a bit off

hehe. We don't do understatements but if we did...

Over 400% off. Not for the first time, the supposed smasher of alleged Irish nationalist myths is in reality a contributor to the far greater store of British nationalist myths.

mathepac · 28-04-2013 8:01pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

... I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English....

6% Irish-born based on the article linked to and 13% Catholic, but undoubtedly 100% pro-British rule in Ireland.

Sound of Silence · 28-04-2013 8:09pm

tac foley wrote: »

That's a very strange delineation to try and describe with any degree of accuracy. At the time of the Troubles there was NO 'six-counties' seperatism - ALL 32 counties counted as Ireland. In that case EVERYBODY born on the island of Ireland was Irish by definition.

tac

The Tans operated in Ireland between 1920 and 1922, having arrived in March of that year.

Not to be a pedant, but I think you will find that the Tan's arrival also happened to coincide with the Government of Ireland Act 1920, which in all essence could be described as a move toward "Six-Counties Separatism" as you put it.

Fratton Fred · 28-04-2013 8:56pm

Coles wrote: »

All of it. Sure your percentages were off (by a factor of 5?), but then you followed it up with a claim that you can provide no reference or link to support. So anyway, why did you post it?

err, how about the IRA handbook that forbids attacks on fellow celtic countries, or the Irish national anthem that talks about crushing the Saxon Foe?

Seanchai wrote: »

hehe. We don't do understatements but if we did...

Over 400% off. Not for the first time, the supposed smasher of alleged Irish nationalist myths is in reality a contributor to the far greater store of British nationalist myths.

from the article (which is the one I recall reading) posted earlier

http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries were overwhelmingly British (78.6 per cent of the sample). Almost two thirds were English, fourteen per cent were Scottish, and fewer than five per cent came from Wales and outside the UK. An unexpected finding that is at odds with popular memory is that nearly nineteen per cent of the sampled recruits (514) were Irish-born, twenty per cent of Black-and-Tans and about ten per cent of Auxiliaries. Extrapolating from the sample, more than 2,300 of all Black-and-Tans and 225 of all Auxiliaries were Irish. Many Irishmen joined the RIC in a role assumed by folk memory to be the exclusive preserve of British mercenaries.

so instead of 25/25/50, it was actually 20/20/60.

oh sorry, it was actually only 6% irish, the rest were nasty old prods I suppose?

mathepac · 28-04-2013 9:11pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

...
oh sorry, it was actually only 6% irish, the rest were nasty old prods I suppose?

If you mean the percentage declared to be non-Catholic, that seems to be 87%

Fratton Fred · 28-04-2013 9:24pm

mathepac wrote: »

If you mean the percentage declared to be non-Catholic, that seems to be 87%

I was being sarcastic. the faith of the black and tans is completely irrelevant.

mathepac · 28-04-2013 9:38pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

... the faith of the black and tans is completely irrelevant.

I dunno, but faith, according this Google article, can play a part in ethnicity, which in turn is part of the thread title. "Ethnicity can, but does not have to, include common ancestry, appearance, cuisine, dressing style, heritage, history, language or dialect, religion, symbols, traditions, or other cultural factor" is for some people part of ethnicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group - a first for me, quoting Google.

robp · 28-04-2013 10:05pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

err, how about the IRA handbook that forbids attacks on fellow celtic countries, or the Irish national anthem that talks about crushing the Saxon Foe?

from the article (which is the one I recall reading) posted earlier

http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768
so instead of 25/25/50, it was actually 20/20/60.

oh sorry, it was actually only 6% irish, the rest were nasty old prods I suppose?

The 6% is not based on religion. In fairness who would do that without mentioning it. The reason I mentioned the 6 counties as a disclaimer is that folks from the north coast may not have self identified as Irish so its problematic including them. Anyway the 6% is derived from the figures given on Tom Toomey’s http://www.warofindependence.info/?page_id=505. So this contradicts History Ireland's figures. The only reason I can think of why this is happening is because History Ireland is including Auxiliaries while maybe Toomey’s does not. Toomey later mentions that many English born had Irish like surnames. I really don't know. Experts?

6% or 19% Irish regardless with a percent that low I think it is inevitable they would be seen as foreign.

Coles · 28-04-2013 11:01pm

Here's a good read...
The Black and Tans: British Police and Auxiliaries in the Irish War of Independence, By D. M. Leeson.

Page 68 onwards...

The book examines the RIC recruits of October 1920 and exmines their backgrounds, their nationality, religion, their employment, and their behaviour during the war.

Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 89% were English, 8% Scottish, 1% Welsh and 2% Empire etc.

Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 80% were Protestant, 8% Catholic, 6% Presbyterian, 6% Nonconformist.

Lots of other interesting stuff too.

johnny_doyle · 28-04-2013 11:41pm

Seanchai wrote: »

Your figure for Clare jumped off the page. Was this a typo on your part, as the earlier mentioned website by Tom Toomey says there was only 6 people born in Clare in the Black and Tans?

I have a copy of Tom's book. Very good read; very good researcher.

Not sure where Tom got his figure. Padraig's book lists the names and numbers and presumably comes from the RIC registers.

Fratton Fred · 29-04-2013 6:36am

Coles wrote: »

The book examines the RIC recruits of October 1920 and exmines their backgrounds, their nationality, religion, their employment, and their behaviour during the war.

Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 89% were English, 8% Scottish, 1% Welsh and 2% Empire etc.

Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 80% were Protestant, 8% Catholic, 6% Presbyterian, 6% Nonconformist.

Lots of other interesting stuff too.

The author seems to be a bit confused about what a "protestant" is.

Coles · 29-04-2013 6:59am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The author seems to be a bit confused about what a "protestant" is.

You didn't read the link, no?

Fratton Fred · 29-04-2013 7:33am

Coles wrote: »

You didn't read the link, no?

I see the reference now, it's you that is confused about what a protestant is.

That link refers only to the recruits enlisted in a solitary month, that is not a representative sample.

Also, considering the majority of voters in 1918 did not support independence, do you really believe there were no Irishmen in the B&Ts?

Coles · 29-04-2013 10:24am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I see the reference now, it's you that is confused about what a protestant is.

Explain yourself (without creating imaginary arguments).

That link refers only to the recruits enlisted in a solitary month, that is not a representative sample.

Oh? How is it not representative? 1157 is almost 20% of all 'Black and Tans'. And you are aware that you presented 'representative' figures where there is no explanation as to how they were selected?

Also, considering the majority of voters in 1918 did not support independence, do you really believe there were no Irishmen in the B&Ts?

I would argue that given that the vast majority of the recruitment occurred in English cities that the vast majority were English. And that is clearly shown in the figures.

I'm not sure why you are trying to infer anything about the Black and Tans from the 1918 election?

47% of the entire Island voted for SF, and a further 27% voted for the Home Rule party. Only 25% of the population of the entire 32 counties voted for Unionist parties. Of course there were some Irish people in the Black and Tans. Some Irish people wanted to maintain the Union. So what?

Fratton Fred · 29-04-2013 11:39am

Coles wrote: »

Explain yourself (without creating imaginary arguments).

Oh? How is it not representative? 1157 is almost 20% of all 'Black and Tans'. And you are aware that you presented 'representative' figures where there is no explanation as to how they were selected?

I would argue that given that the vast majority of the recruitment occurred in English cities that the vast majority were English. And that is clearly shown in the figures.

Have you read the article I linked to? It clearly states how the sample is taken.

Your data is flawed, it only shows one month's worth of recruits, if recruiting only took place in London in that month (which is likely) then it stands to reason 80% of the recruits would be English.

I used the 1918 election results to add strength to the case that your figures were flawed, because they show no Irish recruits, something which is highly unprobable.

Oh, Presbyterians and non conformists are protestants as well, your terminology was incorrect.

mathepac · 29-04-2013 2:55pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

... Oh, Presbyterians and non conformists are protestants as well, your terminology was incorrect.

They most certainly are not.

The following, originally English, Christian faiths are not Protestant :- Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Unitarians. As well as the break from Rome the Protestants made, they also wanted freedom from State interference in religion and/or had theological and/or doctrinal differences with the English established Church.

Wolfe Tone made a case for unity in Ireland between "Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" in order to challenge the ruling elite. His terminilogy and the meanings behind the words he used are still absolutely correct.

Fratton Fred · 29-04-2013 3:17pm

mathepac wrote: »

They most certainly are not.

The following, originally English, Christian faiths are not Protestant :- Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Unitarians. As well as the break from Rome the Protestants made, they also wanted freedom from State interference in religion and/or had theological and/or doctrinal differences with the English established Church.

Wolfe Tone made a case for unity in Ireland between "Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" in order to challenge the ruling elite. His terminilogy and the meanings behind the words he used is still absolutely correct.

Presbyterians are Calvinists. They are protestant. If anything Anglicans are not true protestants. Let's face it though, Protestantism is pretty much any denomination that reject papal supremacy.

jonniebgood1 · 29-04-2013 7:10pm

A more relevant divisional representation of the black and tans would be along pro-Union/ nationalist lines.

The division along home ruler/ separatist/ republican type line does not work as this was a moving ideal as was the anti- home rule/ pro union/ partitionist view.
Similarily divisions along religious lines cannot be assumed to be an accurate representation of ones political bias (although they can give an indication to a certain extent. Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Roger Casement, Bulmer Hobson, Robert Barton, Erskine Childers, etc, etc

riffmongous · 29-04-2013 8:49pm

See this is why I wasn't sure how to phrase the question properly in the first place

30-04-2013 10:26pm

This book may be of interest

"Running with Crows: The Life and Death of a Black and Tan"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Running-Crows-Life-Death-Black/dp/1782991867/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=QYPHVYDI89Z8&coliid=I7K5WG6T5TMN2

DJ Kelly's latest research-based novel reflects the true, yet hitherto untold, story of the only member of the British crown forces to be executed for murder during the Irish War of Independence.

The Black and Tan is question was from Dublin btw

Duckworth_Luas · 01-05-2013 9:42am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Also, considering the majority of voters in 1918 did not support independence

A red herring as 25 of the 105 seats were uncontested, ie no votes were cast in the election of many prominent Sinn Fein candidates.

zztop · 13-06-2013 2:34pm

Tom Barry reckoned the Auxs were worse than the B&Ts but
that some of them were ok including Willian Hill who went on
to give his name to the betting chain:o

Citycap · 13-06-2013 3:51pm

The majority of lower rank RIC Dublin Metropolitan Police were drawn from Irish Catholics. The higher up the ranks went the greater number of Protestants.

gobnaitolunacy · 13-06-2013 3:57pm

zztop wrote: »

some of them were ok including Willian Hill who went on
to give his name to the betting chain:o

Perhaps he devoted more time to the taking of bets rather than harrassing the local population.

mathepac · 14-06-2013 4:59am

There is a poignant story documented by Paddy Hackett in his book "In Bloody Protest - North Tipperary's IRA Roll of Honour 1916 - 1926".

At about mid-night 25th November, 1920, armed and masked men broke into the house of Messrs McCurtain, Castle St. Nenagh, demanding to know the whereabouts of Denis Carey, a shop assistant employed there. They roused Denis of Loughane, Templederry and Jim Moore, Mountrath from their beds and bundled them downstairs. Jim broke away and slammed the hall-door behind them. Stumbling over the hall-table, shots fired from outside through the letter-box sailed over Jim's head. He heard a fusillade from outside and thought Denis had been murdered.

As Denis lay mortally wounded in the street one of his abductors, a man living locally, raised his goggles and thrusting his face into Denis's demanded, "Do you know me now Dinny?".

Denis was taken to the Nenagh Infirmary where other Volunteers and his family pleaded to know the identity of the Tan who had raised his goggles and spoken to him. Denis refused to name the man saying "One death is enough". Denis died without ever naming the man.

From reports in the Nenagh News, the Tipperary Vindicator and interviews with Jim Moore and others conducted by Paddy Hackett, quoted in his book.

Nationality/Ethnicity of the Black and Tans?

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