Nationality/Ethnicity of the Black and Tans?

riffmongous · 25-04-2013 9:48pm #1

Something I have wondered a few times now is if there is any records on the exact.. I will say ethnicity, of the members of the Black and Tans? I usually see them described as 'British' first world war veterans, but it would be very interesting to see if any and then how many of them were actually Irish.

I just got the idea a few years ago when I found out how much of the RIC was Irish, I always had the idea that they were actually English, seems silly now but it was something I think I just picked up in school, that's how they were presented.

Fratton Fred · 26-04-2013 7:51am

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

gobnaitolunacy · 26-04-2013 8:03am

Is there a distinction being made here between the RIC proper, 'Temporary Constables' better known as the B n T's, Auxiliaries and or are we lumping them all into the cover-all term of 'Black & Tan'?

Jawgap · 26-04-2013 8:34am

There a decent enough article here - giving the data you're looking for.

Interestingly, it says there 28 different nationalities represented in the Black and Tans and the Auxies!

pedroeibar1 · 26-04-2013 11:55am

Interesting that the ratio of UK recruits was about 4 : 1 Permanent : Temporary whereas for Ireland it was about 50:50

ganger · 26-04-2013 1:47pm

Jawgap wrote: »

There a decent enough article here - giving the data you're looking for.

Interestingly, it says there 28 different nationalities represented in the Black and Tans and the Auxies!

Very interesting ,,i see 7 born in co.carlow !!!.How would i find out more about these particular guys ..ie service records.

rollcall · 26-04-2013 2:03pm

There is a very good article by a Canadian academic called David Leeson that was in an old issue of History Ireland magazine, he has since written a book on the subject. I hope that this link works;

http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

Jawgap · 26-04-2013 2:06pm

ganger wrote: »

Very interesting ,,i see 7 born in co.carlow !!!.How would i find out more about these particular guys ..ie service records.

Yep

riffmongous · 26-04-2013 5:38pm

Some fantastic links there guys, thanks a lot, exactly what I was looking for!

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Is there a distinction being made here between the RIC proper, 'Temporary Constables' better known as the B n T's, Auxiliaries and or are we lumping them all into the cover-all term of 'Black & Tan'?

The more detailed the information the better.

nuac · 26-04-2013 9:28pm

thanks for the links. Very interesting.

kabakuyu · 27-04-2013 12:30am

A more interesting statistic would be how many of the catholic members were pro union, we always assume every catholic was pro independence but this was not the case.A small minority of catholics had a stake in the union and there were also those who joined up out of economic necessity, either way statistics only tell us so much.

Sound of Silence · 27-04-2013 2:42am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

I realise that the above quote is essentially just conjecture, but I'll entertain it. The idea that the Tans consisted almost exclusively of English recruits would not have been a particularly controversial view to hold during the War of Independence. The English did represent the majority of the force's recruits, amounting to around 60% of its total number.

This view would likely have been perpetuated by the fact that little distinction would have been made of the numerous British accents possessed by 78% of the force. The rural population in Ireland during this period simply did not have access to wireless radios at that time, so the nuances of the many British accents - be they Scottish or Welsh - would more than likely have been lost on the local population, or simply ignored.

riffmongous · 27-04-2013 11:46am

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I realise that the above quote is essentially just conjecture, but I'll entertain it. The idea that the Tans consisted almost exclusively of English recruits would not have been a particularly controversial view to hold during the War of Independence. The English did represent the majority of the force's recruits, amounting to around 60% of its total number.

This view would likely have been perpetuated by the fact that little distinction would have been made of the numerous British accents possessed by 78% of the force. The rural population in Ireland during this period simply did not have access to wireless radios at that time, so the nuances of the many British accents - be they Scottish or Welsh - would more than likely have been lost on the local population, or simply ignored.

That sounds reasonable, but one important aspect of Fred's post is that this view was held for quite a long time and it seems there wasn't anything done to challenge it until recently. Does anyone have access to the current Irish junior cert history textbook? How does it describe the opposing forces?

Sound of Silence · 27-04-2013 1:20pm

riffmongous wrote: »

That sounds reasonable, but one important aspect of Fred's post is that this view was held for quite a long time and it seems there wasn't anything done to challenge it until recently. Does anyone have access to the current Irish junior cert history textbook? How does it describe the opposing forces?

I actually have a textbook somewhere in the house from my key stage 3 History Class, which is roughly equivalent to the Junior Cert. If I can find it anywhere I will make sure to have a look through it.

But I honestly can't recall any mention of their actual Nationality beyond the fact that many were former members of the British Military, and a pretty significant number may likely have been suffering from a form of PTSD. Ultimately it was their actions and behavior which took precident over their Nationality in the eyes of the Irish people.

The idea that varying perceptions of a conflict can exist is not exactly a strange idea, rather its an accepted reality. In the same way that not all members of the Tans were English, we could reiterate to some people that not all Irish Revolutionaries were Catholic, or even Irish for that matter.

For those who are not particularly interested in History it would be fair to say that these laws of absolutes are often a more comforting and easier to digest as an approach to the past - be it the idea of absolute good and absolute evil - because ultimately its an area which they have not invested their time in.

goose2005 · 27-04-2013 2:24pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

And often described as hand-picking the most brutal, shellshocked veterans to go to Ireland - as if those would be the first!

Sound of Silence wrote: »

But I honestly can't recall any mention of their actual Nationality beyond the fact that many were former members of the British Military, and a pretty significant number may likely have been suffering from a form of PTSD. Ultimately it was their actions and behavior which took precident over their Nationality in the eyes of the Irish people.

Also I think they were poorly organised and disciplined - it didn't help that even the British government had no real idea what they wanted to do with Ireland, so troops on the ground certainly had no real clue.

Coles · 28-04-2013 8:44am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

This is complete nonsense. Perhaps you could explain why you posted it?

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 10:55am

Jawgap wrote: »

There a decent enough article here - giving the data you're looking for.

That was excellent. Do we have the names and addresses of all the Irish-born recruits?

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 10:57am

Also, what precisely was the difference between the Auxies and the Black and Tans? (His article is not clear on this point).

And by, say, June 1921 what percentage of the mainstream RIC was Irish-born Catholic and what percentage of the same force's *management* was Irish-born Catholic? How does that compare with the figures in, say, January 1919?

robp · 28-04-2013 4:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

Less than 6% were Irish born but plenty were from the 6 counties so it might be even less.

tac foley · 28-04-2013 5:30pm

robp wrote: »

Less than 6% were Irish born but plenty were from the 6 counties so it might be even less.

That's a very strange delineation to try and describe with any degree of accuracy. At the time of the Troubles there was NO 'six-counties' seperatism - ALL 32 counties counted as Ireland. In that case EVERYBODY born on the island of Ireland was Irish by definition.

tac

Fratton Fred · 28-04-2013 6:30pm

Coles wrote: »

This is complete nonsense. Perhaps you could explain why you posted it?

I got my percentages a bit off, other than that, what is rubbish?

kabakuyu · 28-04-2013 6:42pm

tac foley wrote: »

That's a very strange delineation to try and describe with any degree of accuracy. At the time of the Troubles there was NO 'six-counties' seperatism - ALL 32 counties counted as Ireland. In that case EVERYBODY born on the island of Ireland was Irish by definition.

tac

Good point Tac but they did not the majority of the PUL community stress that they were not Irish but were in fact Ulster Scots and most definitely not Irish.

johnny_doyle · 28-04-2013 6:55pm

as well as listing Co Clare Republican's killed, civilians killed etc, Blood on the Banner by Padraig Og O Ruairc lists 15 Co Clare men who joined the Auxies (14 RC, 1 Protestant) and 46 Co Clare men who joined the B&T's (39 RC, 1 Presbyterian, 5 Protestant)

Coles · 28-04-2013 6:58pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I got my percentages a bit off, other than that, what is rubbish?

All of it. Sure your percentages were off (by a factor of 5?), but then you followed it up with a claim that you can provide no reference or link to support. So anyway, why did you post it?

belcampprisoner · 28-04-2013 7:06pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 7:20pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

as well as listing Co Clare Republican's killed, civilians killed etc, Blood on the Banner by Padraig Og O Ruairc lists 15 Co Clare men who joined the Auxies (14 RC, 1 Protestant) and 46 Co Clare men who joined the B&T's (39 RC, 1 Presbyterian, 5 Protestant)

Your figure for Clare jumped off the page. Was this a typo on your part, as the earlier mentioned website by Tom Toomey says there was only 6 people born in Clare in the Black and Tans?

Seanchai · 28-04-2013 7:29pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I will try and find the article, but off the top of my head, I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English.

They are of course depicted as being English to fit in with the Celtic nations good/Saxon foe bad policy of Irish nationalism.

robp wrote: »

Less than 6% were Irish born but plenty were from the 6 counties so it might be even less.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I got my percentages a bit off

hehe. We don't do understatements but if we did...

Over 400% off. Not for the first time, the supposed smasher of alleged Irish nationalist myths is in reality a contributor to the far greater store of British nationalist myths.

mathepac · 28-04-2013 8:01pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

... I think about 25% were Irish, 25% we're Scottish and Welsh and the remainder English....

6% Irish-born based on the article linked to and 13% Catholic, but undoubtedly 100% pro-British rule in Ireland.

Sound of Silence · 28-04-2013 8:09pm

tac foley wrote: »

That's a very strange delineation to try and describe with any degree of accuracy. At the time of the Troubles there was NO 'six-counties' seperatism - ALL 32 counties counted as Ireland. In that case EVERYBODY born on the island of Ireland was Irish by definition.

tac

The Tans operated in Ireland between 1920 and 1922, having arrived in March of that year.

Not to be a pedant, but I think you will find that the Tan's arrival also happened to coincide with the Government of Ireland Act 1920, which in all essence could be described as a move toward "Six-Counties Separatism" as you put it.

Fratton Fred · 28-04-2013 8:56pm

Coles wrote: »

All of it. Sure your percentages were off (by a factor of 5?), but then you followed it up with a claim that you can provide no reference or link to support. So anyway, why did you post it?

err, how about the IRA handbook that forbids attacks on fellow celtic countries, or the Irish national anthem that talks about crushing the Saxon Foe?

Seanchai wrote: »

hehe. We don't do understatements but if we did...

Over 400% off. Not for the first time, the supposed smasher of alleged Irish nationalist myths is in reality a contributor to the far greater store of British nationalist myths.

from the article (which is the one I recall reading) posted earlier

http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries were overwhelmingly British (78.6 per cent of the sample). Almost two thirds were English, fourteen per cent were Scottish, and fewer than five per cent came from Wales and outside the UK. An unexpected finding that is at odds with popular memory is that nearly nineteen per cent of the sampled recruits (514) were Irish-born, twenty per cent of Black-and-Tans and about ten per cent of Auxiliaries. Extrapolating from the sample, more than 2,300 of all Black-and-Tans and 225 of all Auxiliaries were Irish. Many Irishmen joined the RIC in a role assumed by folk memory to be the exclusive preserve of British mercenaries.

so instead of 25/25/50, it was actually 20/20/60.

oh sorry, it was actually only 6% irish, the rest were nasty old prods I suppose?

mathepac · 28-04-2013 9:11pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

...
oh sorry, it was actually only 6% irish, the rest were nasty old prods I suppose?

If you mean the percentage declared to be non-Catholic, that seems to be 87%

Nationality/Ethnicity of the Black and Tans?

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