Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

tomasrojo · 20-05-2021 1:05pm

Fair bit of detail in this on the UK press guidelines for reporting on road collisions and incidents:
https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/road-collision-reporting-guidelines-finalised/

I guess this is the very short version:

Ten road collision reporting guidelines for journalists:
Be accurate and make sure what is known and what is not known about an incident

Avoid using the word “accident” until the facts are known, especially when a driver has been charged

Refer to drivers, not their vehicles

Consider the impact on the bereaved before publishing details of injuries in particular

Be wary of publishing photos or footage that show number plates or could identify a victim to their relatives. Also be wary of using user-generated footage that could have been taken from behind the wheel

When reporting on traffic delays, be mindful not to undermine any loss of life or serious injury

Consider whether any language used negatively generalises a person or their behaviour as part of a “group”, such as cyclists. Language insinuating a “war” or “battle” can inflame tensions between road users

Coverage of perceived risks on the roads should be based in fact and in context, bearing in mind that larger, faster vehicles have more potential to cause harm than those on foot, bike or horseback

Avoid portraying law-breaking or highway code contravention as acceptable, or perpetrators as victims – for example speeding drivers being “targeted” by speed cameras

Speak to road safety professionals (list of contacts in full guidelines below) for context, expertise and broader advice

ngunners · 20-05-2021 6:05pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/teen-given-two-years-detention-for-killing-deliveroo-cyclist-in-collision-1.4570561?fbclid=IwAR3v_1sU4YcyStC2NQQ8ohuWP_UsrThk5CSnEYOHwZwnpZAeaQmCWDUEWrQ&mode=amp

Disgracefully low sentence.

breezy1985 · 20-05-2021 7:36pm

ngunners wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/teen-given-two-years-detention-for-killing-deliveroo-cyclist-in-collision-1.4570561?fbclid=IwAR3v_1sU4YcyStC2NQQ8ohuWP_UsrThk5CSnEYOHwZwnpZAeaQmCWDUEWrQ&mode=amp

Disgracefully low sentence.

Push a lady on the DART and its national cry for blood and a demand for a complete change to society.

In a car though ah well sad accident

AndrewJRenko · 20-05-2021 9:35pm

Hurrache wrote: »

He's the embodiement of Victor Meldew, but without the humour. I heard a small bit of him this morning and I was thinking that he looks for, and runs with, the downside and whinginess in every single topic he discusses.

It was on homeworking at the time and he looked for the downside in it and said he thinks it's going the Ryanair route of employment in that you supply all your own equipment, use your own broadband (as if it's bloody metred) and your employer saves all the money.

Loath as I am to say it, he has a point on that topic. It's a landgrab, with employers taking space in people's homes for their own purposes, saving substantial commercial rental costs, and keeping all the savings to themselves.

Tell me how · 20-05-2021 9:39pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I grabbed a outdoor beer in Dalkey with a friend for his birthday at the weekend.

Kenny was doing laps in his car just to look appalled at people enjoying themselves.

If NT are doubling down by keeping him on a couple of extra years, they are certainly falling further away from Radio 1. His day is long past.

You might disagree with him on some topics, he's still miles ahead as the premier broadcaster on the radio in the country.

20-05-2021 9:41pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Loath as I am to say it, he has a point on that topic. It's a landgrab, with employers taking space in people's homes for their own purposes, saving substantial commercial rental costs, and keeping all the savings to themselves.

Ah we've missed your "logic" in the WFH thread.

AndrewJRenko · 20-05-2021 9:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah we've missed your "logic" in the WFH thread.

No logic - just the facts. Employers are now using space in employee homes for free.

a_squirrelman · 20-05-2021 10:25pm

Please.

Not here.

magicbastarder · 20-05-2021 10:31pm

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Please.

Not here.

i'll raise your please and make that a don't - mod

Steoller · 21-05-2021 9:22am

ngunners wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/teen-given-two-years-detention-for-killing-deliveroo-cyclist-in-collision-1.4570561?fbclid=IwAR3v_1sU4YcyStC2NQQ8ohuWP_UsrThk5CSnEYOHwZwnpZAeaQmCWDUEWrQ&mode=amp

Disgracefully low sentence.

Martin. Nolan.

Tombo2001 · 21-05-2021 10:29am

Its so depressing.

Why would you be arsed to bring it to court.

If you want to get away with killing someone in this country, do it by car.

Hurrache · 24-05-2021 11:12am

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this, theft and assault, or a form of aggravated burglary. The only thing a lock would have aided with in such a situation is a few smacks around the scumbags head.
https://twitter.com/VirginMediaNews/status/1396770390014406659

tomasrojo · 24-05-2021 5:04pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Looks as if that bike storage shed in the UK might be able to stay:

https://road.cc/content/news/leicester-mayor-planning-officers-got-it-wrong-shed-283293

The bike shed in the UK got planning permission in the end:
https://road.cc/content/news/shedgate-bike-shed-application-approved-283565

Lumen · 25-05-2021 7:40am

Is this the right thread? Don't know. It's about e-scooters and proposals for compulsory "protective equipment". Should this be in the e-scooter legislation thread? Don't know.

More than half injured on e-scooters were not wearing helmet
https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2021/0524/1223683-escooter-injuries/

Consultant orthopaedic surgeon Dr Ciara Fox said the injuries were "quite extensive, complex injuries and even after surgical reconstruction patients had a high risk of post-traumatic arthritis".
...

The analysis shows that 68% of those treated at the hospital sustained fractures in the accidents.
...
Dr Fox said almost half of the patients had some form of head injury and one in ten required a CT brain scan to assess for intracerebral bleeds.

She said 60% of patients had not been wearing The analysis shows that 68% of those treated at the hospital sustained fractures in the accidents.a helmet at the time of the accident.

"It is quite serious and something as simple as a helmet and the education for people to be aware that a helmet can be life-saving," she said
...
The report authors believe now is the time for action to ensure the safety of e-scooter users, calling for the enforcement of protective gear, including helmets along with the introduction of speed limits

Wait, what? Arthritis? In your head?

<searches article for reference to gloves>...<not found>

Right, so let's reduce this to some obvious assumptions.

Scooterists crash when their tiny front wheel hits something. They put their hands out to protect their face, suffer serious hand injuries and broken collarbones.

So why isn't this article titled "More than X injured on e-scooters were not wearing gloves"?

Because the glove wearing was not studied. Or was it?

The research, entitled An Analysis of E-Scooter Related Trauma, looked at 22 patients treated at Connolly Hospital after being involved in an e-scooter accident between October 2019 and November 2020.

Thanks RTE for including a hyperlink to that research. Oh, you didn't? Do I need to explain hyperlinks to you in 2021, or is that included in my €160 a year compulsory license? Did you think to ask where it was published?

Let me Google that for myself.

"An Analysis of E-Scooter Related Trauma"

...finds a lengthy webinar and not much else. So it is published or not?

It's a slippery slope I tell ye! SLIPPERY SLOPE.

Ciara Fox needs to get back in her box.

buffalo · 25-05-2021 7:42am

^^ Scooterists are having accidents: enforce "helmets along with the introduction of speed limits"!

Drivers are having accidents because of "high volumes of vehicles travelling at speed": lower speed limits make the road bigger!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/traffic-accidents-four-times-more-likely-to-be-fatal-on-n20-cork-limerick-road-1.4573929

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 9:17am

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Yeah I think you're right in relation to banning them outright but I would feel very strongly about banning them from cycle lanes. I was talking to the person who wrote it so don't have all the facts to hand but some things they mentioned

1. apparently the speed restrictor was "cut" in a lot of cases

2. Nearly all lone riders who would never have been on a bicycle (nearly exclusively in the 30-50 age bracket)

3. The type of injuries sustained were far more complicated than typical injuries i.e. wrists and ankles were absolutely smashed compared to simple breaks

4. despite only a smaller % of the population using them they account for a 4 fold increase in attendance to ED compared to cyclist and motorbikes combined!!

i'd have a few comments about it, but i'm conscious that some of my comments may be based on the reporting rather than on the paper itself. the first comment would obviously be that it's a small cohort - 22 people, and by the very fact they were admitted to hospital, of course it makes the figures look bad. it's hard to draw any conclusions from the report without it (seemingly) not having compared against other modes of transport.

also, 'one in ten' people needed a CT scan - i.e. two. if it had been one by sheer fluke, it'd have been one in twenty.

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 9:26am

Lumen wrote: »

Is this the right thread? Don't know. It's about e-scooters and proposals for compulsory "protective equipment". Should this be in the e-scooter legislation thread? Don't know.

i moved it to this thread because the report had been mentioned and some preliminary conclusions discussed a bit here a few weeks ago.

Type 17 · 25-05-2021 9:27am

The report authors believe now is the time for action to ensure the safety of e-scooter users, calling for the enforcement of protective gear, including helmets along with the introduction of speed limits.

They said e-scooters make very little noise so users should be encouraged to make themselves as visible as possible with reflective clothing and lighting.

(Assuming that these statements are actually in the report,) the report authors appear to have a medical background, and may not have the relevant experience to make statements such as these. :rolleyes:

While wearing a helmet will undoubtedly help with a lot of the reported head injuries, they won't do much to prevent the ankle/wrist injuries - I wonder how many of these accidents are the result of the scooters' small front wheel getting stuck in poor road surfaces and flipping the rider over the bars? - my bikes have 700mm wheels and I've come close a few times...

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 9:34am

the main issue with a paper like this is that of *course* the report is going to look bad. they're not looking at the issue from end to end, they're looking at it in a context where of course the outcomes will be bad. i've yet to find if there's a comparison with any other modes of transport - e.g. '12% of cyclists admitted to hospital presented with broken wrists, vs. 43% with scooterists' for example.
and no 'per capita' research mentioned in the RTE report unfortunately.

Grassey · 25-05-2021 9:40am

God I hate it when reports mix percentages, total numbers, and X in Y to detract and sensationalise the story.

How hard is it to say:
There was a sample size of 22 admitted.
13 of the 22 (60%) were not reported as wearing a helmet
15 of the 22 (68%) sustained fractures
2 of the 22 (10%) required a precautionary CT scan to assess for internal bleeds.

There - factual, non-emotive, not misleading, can have a balanced discussion about it.

Hurrache · 25-05-2021 9:52am

Lumen wrote: »

Wait, what? Arthritis? In your head?

First thing that struck me alright when I heard the report on RTE this morning. Loads of talk about injuries requiring surgery but no mention of head injuries (unlike in their web version) and yet they jump to the recommendations of speed limits and mandatory helmets.

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 9:56am

Injuries to arms is exactly what I'd have expected, just based on the high centre of gravity and small wheels and the head protection reflex of raising your arms when you fall.

This seems like quite a slender reed on which to start making things compulsory. The speed limitation already applies anyway, doesn't it?

I'm intrigued by the framing that your comeuppance for not creating noise pollution is to be forced to dress like a binman.

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 9:58am

Type 17 wrote: »

While wearing a helmet will undoubtedly help with a lot of the reported head injuries

Haven't read the study, but were there any head injuries among the 22?

Hurrache · 25-05-2021 10:00am

Yeah, arms, fingers, collar bones, knees. Anyone who has messed about on a kids scooter will know how easy it is to come flying off at the sight of a pebble and you go rolling Colt Seavers style. Only the lack of any real momentum that you'd have on an electric one saves anything being damaged other than pride in front of your kids.

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 10:03am

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1397111339466768387

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 10:04am

tomasrojo wrote: »

The speed limitation already applies anyway, doesn't it?

don't think so - they're not accounted for in legislation which is the issue, so there's no legislation to stipulate speed.

i think the one thing we can all agree on from this report, that is unequivocal: 100% of scooterists admitted to hospital with injuries, were injured.

it's a report, it's not research.

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 10:06am

magicbastarder wrote: »

don't think so - they're not accounted for in legislation which is the issue, so there's no legislation to stipulate speed.

Ah right. I thought they were set up for the motor to cut out at 20km/h or something like that.

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 10:21am

Interesting that NZ, if this is to be believed doesn't have a mandatory helmet law for e-scooters, but, famously, is one of the few (used to be only; not sure it still is) place in the world with a universal, no-exceptions helmet law for cyclists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorized_scooter

Seth Brundle · 25-05-2021 10:21am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Haven't read the study, but were there any head injuries among the 22?

Apparently not - just BS reporting by RTE...

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1397115694597255169

Edit: reading the article on rte.ie, it says:

Dr Fox said almost half of the patients had some form of head injury and one in ten required a CT brain scan to assess for intracerebral bleeds.

She said 60% of patients had not been wearing a helmet at the time of the accident.

"It is quite serious and something as simple as a helmet and the education for people to be aware that a helmet can be life-saving," she said.

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2021/0524/1223683-escooter-injuries/

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 10:26am

As already said, one in ten is ... two. It's really quite a small study. "Some form of head injury" could include cuts and bruises. I'd be surprised if it didn't, in fact, as they're the most common head injuries that people seek treatment for.

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 10:38am

My eyes are starting to glaze over now:
https://twitter.com/CoryHendersonG/status/1397122038368776199

JimmiesRustled · 25-05-2021 11:27am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Interesting that NZ, if this is to be believed doesn't have a mandatory helmet law for e-scooters, but, famously, is one of the few (used to be only; not sure it still is) place in the world with a universal, no-exceptions helmet law for cyclists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorized_scooter

New Zealand is a bit of a strange one to be fair. Car insurance is optional. Some of the rules of the road are also a bit strange. Only recently have they passed a "give way rule" which makes cars turning right give way to those turning left. You'll still find a few that don't or at least I did when on the bike over there.

buffalo · 25-05-2021 11:48am

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

New Zealand is a bit of a strange one to be fair. Car insurance is optional. Some of the rules of the road are also a bit strange. Only recently have they passed a "give way rule" which makes cars turning right give way to those turning left. You'll still find a few that don't or at least I did when on the bike over there.

I think this is misleading. NZ has a general accident insurance scheme covering all vehicles for injuries, so the optional part is for individual insurance for things like third party property damage.

This scheme is managed by the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC), and is partially funded by a levy paid as part of your motor vehicle registration fee and also by some of the tax you pay each time you fill your car with petrol. The scheme provides 'no-fault cover', meaning that any person injured as a result of an accident is covered.

https://www.aa.co.nz/insurance/car-and-vehicle-insurance/third-party-car-insurance/third-party-insurance/

edit: I like aspects of it, because it increases the cost of your insurance with the amount of mileage you do. I wonder what they'll do when EVs become the majority though.

JimmiesRustled · 25-05-2021 11:58am

buffalo wrote: »

I think this is misleading. NZ has a general accident insurance scheme covering all vehicles for injuries, so the optional part is for individual insurance for things like third party property damage.

https://www.aa.co.nz/insurance/car-and-vehicle-insurance/third-party-car-insurance/third-party-insurance/

edit: I like aspects of it, because it increases the cost of your insurance with the amount of mileage you do. I wonder what they'll do when EVs become the majority though.

To be honest, I wasn't trying to be misleading just more pointing out that they do things a good bit differently in New Zealand to most places so a mandatory helmet law wouldn't be the strangest thing you'd find.

The Whanguanui river for example has the same rights as a human but I digress.

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 12:00pm

sure in the states, don't corporations have the same rights as a human?

edit: not completely:
https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution?t=1621940484977

tomasrojo · 25-05-2021 12:04pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure in the states, don't corporations have the same rights as a human?

edit: not completely:
https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution?t=1621940484977

Yeah, the 14th amendment, which began as an attempt to protect civil rights for freed slaves, now applies to "corporate personhood".

I keep meaning to read up about it. I guess I'm hoping someone on one of my feeds will do a podcast about it.

Thelonious Monk · 25-05-2021 1:22pm

buffalo wrote: »

I think this is misleading. NZ has a general accident insurance scheme covering all vehicles for injuries, so the optional part is for individual insurance for things like third party property damage.

https://www.aa.co.nz/insurance/car-and-vehicle-insurance/third-party-car-insurance/third-party-insurance/

edit: I like aspects of it, because it increases the cost of your insurance with the amount of mileage you do. I wonder what they'll do when EVs become the majority though.

Yes I worked for ACC in Wellington for a while. Even if you're a blow in tourist and you fall and slip you're entitled to accident insurance, same in cars.
They are ridiculous about bike helmets though. I got ticketed twice but as I was only there for a year I usually didn't bother wearing one, but people look at you like you're going around waving a machine gun or something, the horror of no helmet. A couple of times I got concerned people coming up to me at work saying they drove past me and I wasn't wearing a helmet and that I need to be very careful.
Whatever brainwashing they did down there they did it well.

Lumen · 25-05-2021 7:19pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

My eyes are starting to glaze over now:
https://twitter.com/CoryHendersonG/status/1397122038368776199

What kind of world do we live in that we have to watch a multi hour webinar to consume the results of a study.

Research PAPER. The clue is in the title.

I feel old.

Mundo7976 · 25-05-2021 8:31pm

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-farm-group-reminds-cyclists-of-their-responsibilities-to-tractors-large-vehicles/

CramCycle · 25-05-2021 8:42pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-farm-group-reminds-cyclists-of-their-responsibilities-to-tractors-large-vehicles/

It may not be practical but legally it is the farmers responsibility, same as it is for builders, council workers etc. I say this as someone who grew up on a farm and whose father made him sweep the road on occasion. At the very least it should be done on the last occasion you leave the field for the day,

Tell me how · 25-05-2021 8:44pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-farm-group-reminds-cyclists-of-their-responsibilities-to-tractors-large-vehicles/

If that had been framed as a joint initiative with farmers similarly being advised about certain things such as leaving enough room when overtaking, not pulling out on road too quickly, considering the swing radius of equipment which sticks out behind tractors etc it would haven't been a bad thing.

But it obviously comes across as shifting responsibility. I hope cycling Ireland made this point.

Large bottle small glass · 25-05-2021 9:14pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-farm-group-reminds-cyclists-of-their-responsibilities-to-tractors-large-vehicles/

It would be more in their line to focus on
*The extraordinarily long working hours of their employees, especially at this time of year
*Your average modern contractors tractor and trailer units probably have doubled in weight over the last 20 odd years along with an significant increase in top speed. That's a huge increase in momentum and potential damage. 16yr olds car drive them without any training.
*Tractors are involved in a disproportionate number of fatal and serious accidents both on road and in private land
*Section 76 of the roads Act isn't optional.

In saying that your average urban cyclist would be pretty clueless around tractors and should be mindful and give them a wide berth.

I don't know how contractors make a living though. I recently spoke to a plant contract who's new tractor at a discount was €170k ex VAT. Millions tied up in machinery flying around the countryside for a couple of months every year must be a tight margin game.

Then try and collect off farmers!

magicbastarder · 25-05-2021 10:12pm

there's a field about 50m from the parents in law, leased out to someone so they don't know who's actually farming it, but whoever it was taking the piss; the road was regularly covered in large lumps of muck and stones, to the point where you'd be weaving at times to avoid them, even in the car.
but they dropped some boxes of veg around to the ten people or so who live on the road after someone complained, which was seen as a nice gesture.
bollocks to that. the veg probably cost them literally a few euro.

Seth Brundle · 25-05-2021 10:43pm

Ongoing case so I'll just point towards the details in the Irish Times and refrain from making any personal comments on it...

Cyclists recount vehicle speeding on wrong side of road before fatal collision
Vehicle speed seemed ‘excessive’, appeared to accelerate as it came around bend, court hears

Members of a Dublin cycling club have described how a car came around a bend towards them partly on their side of the road seconds before a collision which killed one of their group four years ago.

A sitting of Naas Circuit Criminal Court heard evidence from several members of Orwell Wheelers Cycling Club in Dundrum who recalled being startled at how the vehicle had crossed over a continuous white line at speed.

Kevin Hutchinson (29) of Roberstown West, Robertstown, Co Kildare has pleaded not guilty to a charge of dangerous driving causing the death of Tonya McEvoy on February 12th, 2019 at Rathcoffey, Co Kildare.
...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/cyclists-recount-vehicle-speeding-on-wrong-side-of-road-before-fatal-collision-1.4575187?mode=amp

buffalo · 26-05-2021 8:03am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ongoing case so I'll just point towards the details in the Irish Times and refrain from making any personal comments on it...

I'm not sure how they got the year wrong - it was 2017, not 2019. 4+ years to reach court.

magicbastarder · 26-05-2021 8:57am

weird, i had in my head that that had already been done and dusted legally.

buffalo · 26-05-2021 9:52am

magicbastarder wrote: »

weird, i had in my head that that had already been done and dusted legally.

I figured that the DPP had decided there wasn't enough to bring a case because nothing had happened.

The Indo article has detail from other witnesses, paints a more complete picture than the Times' filler piece.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/car-came-around-bend-dangerously-fastbefore-death-of-cyclist-tonya-mcevoy-drivers-trial-hears-40469497.html

magicbastarder · 26-05-2021 10:06am

i know a chap in orwell who mentioned one or two details he'd heard at the time which seemed to suggest the gardai were handling the case well.

GabbaTheHutt · 26-05-2021 2:10pm

Can we ask that we don’t discuss this case at the moment please? As it is currently before the courts it’s really important that nothing is seen to bias any decision .

It has been scheduled and postponed several times since the incident - covid and other reasons, so hopefully have some conclusion for the family and all involved soon.

Duckjob · 26-05-2021 9:07pm

https://www.newstalk.com/news/suvs-are-anti-social-monstrosities-that-should-be-banned-form-irish-cities-paul-murphy-1201127

Can be heard on todays listen back.

I don't agree with Paul Murphy on a great many things, but I'm glad he spoke out on "CarTalk" about this.

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

Comments