Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

magicbastarder · 14-12-2020 6:49pm

Was just mentioned on drivetime on R1 that they'll be talking about why women don't cycle on the show this evening. Seems to be a focus on the abuse female cyclists get.

Seaswimmer · 14-12-2020 7:57pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Was just mentioned on drivetime on R1 that they'll be talking about why women don't cycle on the show this evening. Seems to be a focus on the abuse female cyclists get.

Girl or woman called Ellen Cullen I think. Vice chairperson of Dublin Cycling campaign. I thought she was excellent. Measured, humorous and no axe to grind. started about 18:48 I would say. And no one to interrupt her so she was given a good run to make her pitch. Still unsure why so few women cycle but infrastructure and perception of safety seem to be top of the list
Brilliant that it came close to the end of the programme as no time for comments on RLJs, road tax, helmets, hi-vis, ect ect ect

Seth Brundle · 14-12-2020 9:09pm

https://twitter.com/byjoeb/status/1338575142734196743
https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1338557369484185601
https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1338558667474481152

eeeee · 15-12-2020 12:06am

I get shouted at all the time on the bike during the summer. It was worse when I was younger and cycled in normal clothes more, it was daily. Now in Lycra it's weekly in 'season'.

Example. During the 5k lockdown, I was doing my 5k route, came up to the Goat pub. I pedalled out in front of traffic as usual. Lights go green, traffic behind me doesn't pass me. I don't use the cycle lane after it, I thought maybe they were hanging back, even though there's lots of room to drive beside me (as usually happens). Bit weird but I don't pass any heed.
Then a small pick up lorry rolls up beside me, 2 men in it. Lanscaping sign on it. They're filming me, guy out the passenger window, talking about my ass, what he wanted to do me, how he wanted to do it to me. He driving right beside me, then slightly in front, filming all the while, talking the same shyte at me.
I was gonna whip out my phone and start recording them, but then I was afraid if they decided to come after me they'd definitely get me and if I turn off the main road there will be less people around to help me.
Traffic is beeping behind them. There are another set of lights up ahead, the traffic behind them forces them to drive on. They do, still filming me, I hang back. Lights go red up ahead, I hang back and hide behind a car, swearing like a sailor. Lights go green, I cycle on, and it starts again, talking about my ass, the same craic, filming me, driving slowly beside/in front of me, telling me they're gonna put it up on the internet. I start telling them to fcuk off and more, hang back. Another set of lights ahead (there are 2 close to each other after the Goat). Red. Fcuk. They speed up and break the lights.

That's just one example. Cars and vans routinely shout about parts of my body, what they want to do to me, and how 'in season', more often when I'm in normal clothes. (I was in cycling gear and and a buff in the above example).
It's really, really fcuking shytty. And very threatening. I'm a very confident person, and an experienced cyclist, used to it. If you were just starting out it can be super threatening and off putting. I feel really sorry for schoolkids out and about, given what I got as a younger woman they must get awful shyte from the creepy bastards.
But according to some we don't need feminism anymore :rolleyes:

ETA: Don't get me started on the shoaling!

15-12-2020 12:12am

For ****s sake, my partner would have a story or 10 but nothing as bad that :mad:

hesker · 15-12-2020 9:55am

Wow. That is just absolutely incredible. I really feel for you and anyone who has to experience that.

Have you reported any of this abuse and if so what kind of response did you get.

Oymyakon · 15-12-2020 10:18am

Front page of last week's Fingal Independent: "Cycle lane row in River Valley", article goes on to highlight resident's disgust at the lack of public consultation about the construction of a segregated cycle track in the estate. Many people giving out that they can't make a turn without briefly crossing to the other side of the road, what does that say about their driving ability?

Wildly Boaring · 15-12-2020 10:23am

Oymyakon wrote: »

Front page of last week's Fingal Independent: "Cycle lane row in River Valley", article goes on to highlight resident's disgust at the lack of public consultation about the construction of a segregated cycle track in the estate. Many people giving out that they can't make a turn without briefly crossing to the other side of the road, what does that say about their driving ability?

They got cars or artics?

magicbastarder · 15-12-2020 10:25am

worth a chuckle. genuinely don't know if he's trolling or not.

Of course cycling is right-wing

Three cheers for Jeremy Vine. At last someone has pointed out that cycling in cities is inherently right-wing.
Full disclosure: I’m a cyclist. I may not own a square inch of fluorescent or Lycra apparel; I may not terrorise motorists with violently bright and flashing lights but I’ve been riding a bike around London since I was a child.
However, whereas Jeremy celebrates the right-wing triumphalism of cycling — asserting that he and other cyclists 'are acting out of primal selfishness' — I’m mortally embarrassed by it. Cycling is the exclusive preserve of the very few and the very able. As for cycle lanes, which pander to a tiny and privileged elite at the expense of the vast majority, they’re undemocratic and wrong.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/of-course-cycling-is-right-wing

Seth Brundle · 15-12-2020 11:02am

The Irish Times have yet another letter from Peter Carville, a concerned resident of Sandymount, predicting armageddon should the proposed cycle infrastructurego ahead.
I'm not going to bother quoting the letter but here is the url...
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/closure-of-strand-road-to-northbound-traffic-1.4436309

I also assume that it is the same Peter Carville who wrote to the Indo a few years ago about a "regime of abortion on demand, without reason, right up to birth" should the Eighth Amendment pass
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/fake-news-makes-writing-and-reasoning-more-vital-than-ever-36429352.html

I guess his ability to predict future outcomes isn't very good.

tomasrojo · 15-12-2020 11:03am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The Irish Times have yet another letter from Peter Carville, a concerned resident of Sandymount, predicting armageddon should the proposed cycle infrastructurego ahead.
I'm not going to bother quoting the letter but here is the url...
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/closure-of-strand-road-to-northbound-traffic-1.4436309

I also assume that it is the same Peter Carville who wrote to the Indo a few years ago about a "regime of abortion on demand, without reason, right up to birth" should the Eighth Amendment pass
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/fake-news-makes-writing-and-reasoning-more-vital-than-ever-36429352.html

I guess his ability to predict future outcomes isn't very good.

That's one long-ass letter about one very local issue.

Duckjob · 15-12-2020 11:17am

Oymyakon wrote: »

Front page of last week's Fingal Independent: "Cycle lane row in River Valley", article goes on to highlight resident's disgust at the lack of public consultation about the construction of a segregated cycle track in the estate. Many people giving out that they can't make a turn without briefly crossing to the other side of the road, what does that say about their driving ability?

Even as someone who is generally very supportive of segregated cycle lanes in as many places as possible, I think I would be a bit refreshing if people just started being honest for once:

"Nah, I don't want it because I don't like cyclists and I'm automatically against any change that might accommodate them".

I'm prettty sick of hearing all these cock-and-bull excuses.

As regards the above reason about "having to" cross to the other side of the road, I think probably the most accurate translation is:

"I'm used to hareing it around these corners at whatever speed I want, and I probably won't be able to sweep around them at the same speed now unless I drive even more carelessly. I'M BEING FORCED TO DRIVE MORE CARELESSLY !

Essentially, you're hearing tantrums from people who have been getting their way like spoiled babies, and are now, after way too long, being told they need to start behaving.

Type 17 · 15-12-2020 11:17am

magicbastarder wrote: »

worth a chuckle. genuinely don't know if he's trolling or not.

Of course cycling is right-wing

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/of-course-cycling-is-right-wing

Cycling isn't really political (unless people want to make it so), but it seems right-wing to some, because those who shout loudest about their rights/poor infrastructure, etc, are white males (and white males do a lot of right wing shouting in other arenas).

The fact is, in cities, white males outnumber other cyclists because they are the young/fit/brave ones, and everyone else is too scared to ride a bike.
In most other aspects of their lives, the white male is the default character that everyone else is supposed to aspire to be like, whereas when they get on a bike, they become a put-upon minority, and they shout loudly because they aren't used to their privilege being challenged. (PS: I'm a white male

)

Ultimately, if decent infrastructure is put in place, and motorists' attitudes change, cycling will appear to become more left wing, as more non-white, non-male riders appear on the streets, but those talking about cycling being right wing probably won't like that either because they just like making everything political (I'm not that political, I just want to travel safely by bike).

Type 17 · 15-12-2020 11:26am

Oymyakon wrote: »

...Many people giving out that they can't make a turn without briefly crossing to the other side of the road...

This is called Swan-Necking (think of the shape of a swan's neck), and is a sign of travelling too fast for the corner. If the bike lane has made the corner sharper, then physics says that you'll have to travel slower to get the front wheels turned further in time to make the turn, or you can 'straighten' the corner a bit by swan-necking because you're a lazy tool who wants to travel at your usual speed.

magicbastarder · 15-12-2020 11:32am

i think DCC (or maybe one of the other councils) have deliberately sharpened some corners anyway - regardless of whether it's anything to do with cycling - to force motorists to treat junctions as actual stops rather than yields.

tomasrojo · 15-12-2020 11:37am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think DCC (or maybe one of the other councils) have deliberately sharpened some corners anyway - regardless of whether it's anything to do with cycling - to force motorists to treat junctions as actual stops rather than yields.

Yeah, they've added wands on a lot of corners on the Goatstown/Clonkeagh route to make corners right angles. They never should have had such relaxed turning radii really. They're all side roads and having turning radii that allowed people in cars to corner hard they were making life more difficult for pedestrians, whatever about cyclists.

Good thing about pedestrians and turning radii here:

Like many street design variables, there’s an unavoidable trade-off between pedestrian safety and traffic speeds, and the turning radius forms the balance point between these priorities.

https://www.minnpost.com/cityscape/2015/10/intersection-design-or-how-turning-radius-shaping-your-life/

Paddigol · 15-12-2020 12:28pm

Duckjob wrote: »

As regards the above reason about "having to" cross to the other side of the road, I think probably the most accurate translation is:

"I'm used to hareing it around these corners at whatever speed I want, and I probably won't be able to sweep around them at the same speed now unless I drive even more carelessly. I'M BEING FORCED TO DRIVE MORE CARELESSLY !

Essentially, you're hearing tantrums from people who have been getting their way like spoiled babies, and are now, after way too long, being told they need to start behaving.

That occurred to me today as I walked across the road as a pedestrian on Baggot St. Why, when we are in pedestrian mode and not driver mode, do we feel the obligation to scurry like rats across roads while cars in the distance speed towards us. Why do we feel the obligation to get out of the way? Why do motorists not feel the need to adjust their speeds and give way to other human beings in the process of crossing the road from A to B? Why, when I start crossing a clear road, do I need to break into a trot because the driver that was in the distance when I stepped off the footpath decided that he/ she didn't need to adjust their speed to take account of the fact that there was now a person walking across the street. The expectation clearly was that they could bully the pedestrian into clearing the road quicker if they made no concession.

"Cross at the lights" you say? Perhaps so, and perhaps there's merit in that obligation, which is what makes my point relevant to the discussion - is now the time when giving priority to cars in all spaces should be rolled back?

Cross at lights only? Sure, now instead of making those lights token 'pedestrian lights' which are really only concerned with regulating road traffic, make them accommodate pedestrians rather that having them stand there for 5 minutes waiting for the Green Man. Why are people going places in cars (or bikes for that matter) more important that people going places on foot? Cross only at permitted spots? Sure, lets start building more pedestrian (zebra) crossings.

A lot of us cycle, drive, take public transport and walk - all on a regular basis. So it's not an anti-driving rant, it's simply about addressing how we want our towns and cities to function. I use all four modes of transport every day - about 1hr cycle commute, about 1hr train commute and about 40 minute car commute, while during the day I walk around the city. I can say with absolute certainty that I am more put out when cycling (crap cycle paths and dangerous drivers), walking (narrow footpaths, useless pedestrian lights and aggressive drivers) and using public transport (infrequent services, poor park and ride facilities and no meaningful facility where I live) than when driving.

At present, the whole system is highly dysfunctional, including the fact that people are discouraged from leaving the car at home by the fact that park and ride facilities and link-up between various public transport options is pretty poor.

IMHO, the era of the car dominating all around it needs to end and I think we're seeing the start of that in the past year or two. You can be sure that there will be a lot of venom spewed in the media by those who'll fight to the end to maintain what they perceive to be they're inalienable right to use the roads as they deem fit (including viewing speed limits as some nanny-state control that doesn't really apply to them).

buffalo · 15-12-2020 12:43pm

Paddigol wrote: »

I am more put out when cycling (crap cycle paths and dangerous drivers), walking (narrow footpaths, useless pedestrian lights and aggressive drivers) and using public transport (infrequent services, poor park and ride facilities and no meaningful facility where I live) than when driving.

The only thing that generally inconveniences me when I'm driving is other people driving in the same direction at the same time. They create all the traffic!

Macy0161 · 15-12-2020 1:10pm

buffalo wrote: »

The only thing that generally inconveniences me when I'm driving is other people driving in the same direction at the same time. They create all the traffic!

I've had this argument so many times around where I live. Stuck as part of a long line of traffic, but it was the two cyclists that it took 20 seconds to overtake that held you up, not the head of the line of cars you've been behind for 10km! :rolleyes:

Type 17 · 15-12-2020 1:28pm

Paddigol wrote: »

...the obligation to scurry like rats across roads...token 'pedestrian lights' which are really only concerned with regulating road traffic, make them accommodate pedestrians rather that having them stand there for 5 minutes waiting for the Green Man...

It's not for nothing that the pedestrian buttons on traffic lights are known as Begging Buttons :rolleyes:

Stark · 15-12-2020 2:21pm

All that discussion about having to cross to other side of road to make a turn reminded me of https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/04/25/hatchback-driver-swings-car-right-before-turning-left-for-some-reason/

An expert in driving behaviour investigating the incident, believes the motorist in question may have been experiencing something known as ‘bus delusions’, a relatively unheard of driving phenomenon which forces motorists into thinking that they’re driving a large bus or truck.

breezy1985 · 15-12-2020 2:24pm

Stark wrote: »

All that discussion about having to cross to other side of road to make a turn reminded me of https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/04/25/hatchback-driver-swings-car-right-before-turning-left-for-some-reason/

Every day I come across cars half in a cycle lane because they are afraid of the lane next to them as if a tank is on its way down the street

eeeee · 15-12-2020 4:51pm

hesker wrote: »

Wow. That is just absolutely incredible. I really feel for you and anyone who has to experience that.

Have you reported any of this abuse and if so what kind of response did you get.

I didn't. I was going to, but without a camera there's little they can do, a your word against theirs. There were loads of other cars and people on the footpath that witnessed it, but I just kept going with my spin and didn't stop anyone. I was a bit shook after tbh, I just pedalled on till I was ok again. It happens so often you become immune to it to an extent. It's only the exceptionally bad ones that are remarkable.

I do think I should have reported that one though, it was a bad one, not for myself but other women on the road. I let it go, but I regret that now. Maybe I still can. I remember the sign on the pick up really clearly and could pick the person out if I had to.
It sadly part and parcel of being a female cyclist out on the road. It doesn't happen when I'm in a group naturally enough. It appears when you're out with a bunch all of a sudden stop being an object :rolleyes:

work · 16-12-2020 12:58am

eeeee wrote: »

I get shouted at all the time on the bike during the summer. It was worse when I was younger and cycled in normal clothes more, it was daily. Now in Lycra it's weekly in 'season'.

Example. During the 5k lockdown, I was doing my 5k route, came up to the Goat pub. I pedalled out in front of traffic as usual. Lights go green, traffic behind me doesn't pass me. I don't use the cycle lane after it, I thought maybe they were hanging back, even though there's lots of room to drive beside me (as usually happens). Bit weird but I don't pass any heed.
Then a small pick up lorry rolls up beside me, 2 men in it. Lanscaping sign on it. They're filming me, guy out the passenger window, talking about my ass, what he wanted to do me, how he wanted to do it to me. He driving right beside me, then slightly in front, filming all the while, talking the same shyte at me.
I was gonna whip out my phone and start recording them, but then I was afraid if they decided to come after me they'd definitely get me and if I turn off the main road there will be less people around to help me.
Traffic is beeping behind them. There are another set of lights up ahead, the traffic behind them forces them to drive on. They do, still filming me, I hang back. Lights go red up ahead, I hang back and hide behind a car, swearing like a sailor. Lights go green, I cycle on, and it starts again, talking about my ass, the same craic, filming me, driving slowly beside/in front of me, telling me they're gonna put it up on the internet. I start telling them to fcuk off and more, hang back. Another set of lights ahead (there are 2 close to each other after the Goat). Red. Fcuk. They speed up and break the lights.

That's just one example. Cars and vans routinely shout about parts of my body, what they want to do to me, and how 'in season', more often when I'm in normal clothes. (I was in cycling gear and and a buff in the above example).
It's really, really fcuking shytty. And very threatening. I'm a very confident person, and an experienced cyclist, used to it. If you were just starting out it can be super threatening and off putting. I feel really sorry for schoolkids out and about, given what I got as a younger woman they must get awful shyte from the creepy bastards.
But according to some we don't need feminism anymore :rolleyes:

ETA: Don't get me started on the shoaling!

Firstly thank you for sharing that story and keep on cycling never let the bastards stop you. This is something I really was unaware of a few years ago and used to think, for the first while the women were bull****ting until my wife pointed out to me that just because I do not do it doesn't mean others do not do it. She really got me thinking.
I have never witnessed any disrespect to a female cyclist personally but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen but it did reinforce my bias.

Can we please call out any guys that do this. I suggest a camera with decent sound. Surely if a few of these were filmed and shamed surely they would stop, we see lots of videos in the Near passes section on boards but never abuse, lets get some evidence out there. Would a company be within its rights to fire a person for such behavior. I certainly would fire any staff doing that (after legal council).

This may seem like a tiny gripe (and in no way belittles your issue which is infinitely more significant) on my behalf but as a white male it is frustrating to hear so many reports about how males abuse women and stop then exercising, abuse them cycling etc etc like as though we are one homogeneous group. I just wish when journalists make these type of statement about men they would use the term "Some" men.

The vast majority of men would abhor such behavior. Times have changed though and we definitely needed some education as males, men who have not yet taken on board what is abusive really need some serious chastisement like loss of job and public shaming.

Anyway sorry for going on and I am very sad to hear your were abused like that. DO NOT let them away with it.

eeeee · 16-12-2020 2:08am

Thanks for that work, I think you're spot on with everything tbh. The knowledge not to do it is out there, but it's not enough sadly, change has to come from within (from men themselves calling each other out.)

It's the entitlement that gets me too.
Also during that first lockdown, I trained outside on rollers because I can't train inside my flat cos of neighbours.
So I rolled in the public park beside my flat. When I'm rolling I'm roughly the colour purple, breathing out my arse, tasting blood, big headphones on, seeing only the tiny bit of tarmac in front of me and very clearly busy.
I still got several men come up to me to ask me out (mid interval :rolleyes:), actually come up and tap me on the shoulder cos I wasn't paying any attention to their advances. Fcuk the fcuk off!!!! And those taking pics and videos (I only see them in between intervals).
The vast and overwhelming majority were perfectly fine, but those that aren't really aren't. They'd never interrupt a man exercising in a park in the same way.

On a lighter note after one particularly hideous session I just crawled off the bike onto the ground, seeing stars after the last interval, swallowing sick, dying. Headphones in, eyes closed. After a min or two I opened my eyes and there was an older woman stood over me asking if I was alright. I nearly died. I think I hit my max heart rate again :pac: :pac:

magicbastarder · 16-12-2020 3:34am

Random aside, what do you have playing through the headphones?

eeeee · 16-12-2020 9:23am

magicbastarder wrote: »

Random aside, what do you have playing through the headphones?

If I told you I'd have to kill you!
Now I'm warning us for going off topic

magicbastarder · 16-12-2020 9:52am

i occasionally come across music and think, 'you know, if i exercised to music that'd be great' not knowing if the music would be any good for that.

Wildly Boaring · 16-12-2020 10:13am

eeeee wrote: »

The vast and overwhelming majority were perfectly fine, but those that aren't really aren't. They'd never interrupt a man exercising in a park in the same way.

Yep they do. Pretty often
Had numerous occasions in the boat...
Earphones in flat out sprinting a kayak up the thames in rural oxford.
Couple on the bank flag me down.
I stop and float over. Assuming they've a problem

"Excuse me, what type of boat is that" AHHHHHH!!!

I've had people shout to me in the middle of rapids, wondering is it not dangerous.

During lockdown I stuck the turbo at the side of the house due to the sun. Neighbours were stopping for a chat!!
I couldn't speak.

Must add that I'm appalled but not surprised at the behaviour of the men accosting you on the road.
Is the rollers more awe?

Tombo2001 · 16-12-2020 10:17am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/16/women-behind-huge-increase-in-running-and-cycling-in-2020

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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