Leinster v Saracens

salmocab · 19-09-2020 6:34pm

Disappointing, think the Leinster team that was playing before Covid break would have won that game but it’s not quite clicked since the return. Second half was a good performance but had given up far too much in the first. Sarries has too much about them early on and the scrum was the catalyst for a lot of what they did.

Redgirl82 · 19-09-2020 6:37pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Would depend on how many apartments the IRFU could co-sign with him.

McCall would not be able to sign him way out of trouble like Sarries

Plus the amount of complaints because of Joe style of rugby, imagine watching Ireland playing like Sarries week in week out....you wonder why they have very few supporters, it’s awful stuff

Redgirl82 · 19-09-2020 6:39pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Yeah, he was offside, he jogged to catch it. You wouldn’t expect BT to cover it and BOD certainly isn’t going to go against the paymasters.

BOD said before when he started with BT he was told to be unbiased

It seems the communication wasn’t sent to his counterpart

I think the worst part was the welcome to Irish viewers before the game??? Do BT realise they always show the games in Ireland

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 6:43pm

salmocab wrote: »

Disappointing, think the Leinster team that was playing before Covid break would have won that game but it’s not quite clicked since the return. Second half was a good performance but had given up far too much in the first. Sarries has too much about them early on and the scrum was the catalyst for a lot of what they did.

It was so easy for them too. Turnover a maul, win a scrum penalty. Box kick, win a ruck penalty. Rinse, repeat.

dh1985 · 19-09-2020 6:46pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Having Ross Bryne on the bench was a big weakness. Hope his brother can push on this season. Nothing against him, but he offers nongame breaking ability. What I wouldn't give for Carberry

What's the fascination with carbery. He has done nothing at 10. The losing of today's game is deeper than the back up 10. I think ross Byrne does the simples things very well which is what saracens have based there whole game plan on. If irish packs dont have the answer to itoje and vunipolas the back up 10 wont change a game

salmocab · 19-09-2020 6:48pm

dh1985 wrote: »

What's the fascination with carbery. He has done nothing at 10. The losing of today's game is deeper than the back up 10. I think ross Byrne does the simples things very well which is what saracens have based there whole game plan on. If irish packs dont have the answer to itoje and vunipolas the back up 10 wont change a game

Actually think the Leinster pack did have an answer to Billy V today. He wasn’t half as effective as normal. I’m sure someone will come along with stats to dispute it but from viewing he didn’t seem to be too effective. Now they had plenty of other stuff go right so it didn’t matter.

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 6:49pm

dh1985 wrote: »

What's the fascination with carbery. He has done nothing at 10. The losing of today's game is deeper than the back up 10. I think ross Byrne does the simples things very well which is what saracens have based there whole game plan on. If irish packs dont have the answer to itoje and vunipolas the back up 10 wont change a game

He is dual threat outhalf, in a way Ross isnt

AdamD · 19-09-2020 6:58pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He is dual threat outhalf, in a way Ross isnt

Ross Byrne was not one of the reasons we lost today. Such a bizarre comment. We conceded 7 scrum penalties for **** sake. Our starting scrum half was pretty diabolical too, a larger issue for Leinster (and Ireland at this point, they're all out of form)

mfceiling · 19-09-2020 7:05pm

From my viewing it seems Leinster were put under savage pressure. Box kicks and 2 players either competing against the Leinster player, or 1 competing and 1 or 2 swarming the Leinster player getting the ball thus stopping him passing the ball or making so much as a metre.
They completely suffocated Leinster. One passage of play Leinster went through about 10 phases and just crabbed back and forward across the halfway line.
When Sarries got the ball they made yards.... basically did to Leinster what they did to Ulster last week.

Somebody on twitter making a good point (I felt anyway) that every forward should make a nuisance against Itoje. He should be held in every ruck, have his jersey pulled and generally should be targeted by every member of the pack at every breakdown or ruck. I know some will say you're wasting energy by focusing on him but all 8 should be niggling him constantly for 80 minutes.

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 7:07pm

AdamD wrote: »

Ross Byrne was not one of the reasons we lost today. Such a bizarre comment. We conceded 7 scrum penalties for **** sake. Our starting scrum half was pretty diabolical too, a larger issue for Leinster (and Ireland at this point, they're all out of form)

Never said he was. My point was that he's not one to come on a turn a match around.

ironingbored · 19-09-2020 7:08pm

Difficult loss to take given how poorly we played in the first half.

At 17-22 we had a lineout maul 10mts out.
Wray and Rhodes both came in at the side and drove the maul to the sideline. Sarries were awarded a penalty.
The ref can be bad for both sides but there are times when a poor call at a pivotal moment can strongly influence a result.

Romaine Poite carded a Clermont player 21 mins in for cynically killing the ball in the 22. Wasn't an accumulation, multiple infringements.

Sarries gave away 3 penalties in their own 22 in the first half and nothing given.

Not saying Leinster even deserved to win but saying the ref wasn't at least a factor in the loss is naive.

p.s. stonewall penalty not given against Leinster when Wray poached late on.

p.p.s really stings that in 2 of the last 3 years, Leinster's reward for finishing top seed is a QF against Sarries - a team who arguably risked being stripped of titles for cheating.

Bazzo · 19-09-2020 7:08pm

AdamD wrote: »

Ross Byrne was not one of the reasons we lost today. Such a bizarre comment. We conceded 7 scrum penalties for **** sake. Our starting scrum half was pretty diabolical too, a larger issue for Leinster (and Ireland at this point, they're all out of form)

Not really the place for it in the Leinster thread but Gibson-Park, Marmion, Casey, Blade... definitely not out of form.

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 7:09pm

mfceiling wrote: »

From my viewing it seems Leinster were put under savage pressure. Box kicks and 2 players either competing against the Leinster player, or 1 competing and 1 or 2 swarming the Leinster player getting the ball thus stopping him passing the ball or making so much as a metre.
They completely suffocated Leinster. One passage of play Leinster went through about 10 phases and just crabbed back and forward across the halfway line.
When Sarries got the ball they made yards.... basically did to Leinster what they did to Ulster last week.

Somebody on twitter making a good point (I felt anyway) that every forward should make a nuisance against Itoje. He should be held in every ruck, have his jersey pulled and generally should be targeted by every member of the pack at every breakdown or ruck. I know some will say you're wasting energy by focusing on him but all 8 should be niggling him constantly for 80 minutes.

Leinster were crying out for some tip on passes before contact. Every runner was getting double tackled.

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 7:09pm

ironingbored wrote: »

Difficult loss to take given how poorly we played in the first half.

At 17-22 we had a lineout maul 10mts out.
Wray and Rhodes both came in at the side and drove the maul to the sideline. Sarries were awarded a penalty.
The ref can be bad for both sides but there are times when a poor call at a pivotal moment can strongly influence a result.

Romaine Poite carded a Clermont player 21 mins in for cynically killing the ball in the 22. Wasn't an accumulation, multiple infringements.

Sarries gave away 3 penalties in their own 22 in the first half and nothing given.

Not saying Leinster even deserved to win but saying the ref wasn't at least a factor in the loss is naive.

p.s. stonewall penalty not given against Leinster when Wray poached late on.

Couldn't believe they got the call on that one, blatantly in from the side

bilston · 19-09-2020 7:20pm

You can't ignore the fact that Saracens had a huge incentive. They won't be back into the knockout stages of Europe until the Spring of 2023 at the earliest. Leinster will be back in 6 months time. That fear will have inspired Saracens today.

foxyladyxx · 19-09-2020 7:25pm

bilston wrote: »

You can't ignore the fact that Saracens had a huge incentive. They won't be back into the knockout stages of Europe until the Spring of 2023 at the earliest. Leinster will be back in 6 months time. That fear will have inspired Saracens today.

Spot on. They had a lot more to play for!!

They needed to avenge the humiliation after being demoted in the Premiership.

Clegg · 19-09-2020 7:26pm

Just feel like this is the end of the road for this particular Leinster side. Peaked in 2018 with the double win and had chances to win last season's final but fell a bit short. This year we were closer on the scoreboard but the performance was much worse.

KaneToad · 19-09-2020 7:30pm

Clegg wrote: »

Just feel like this is the end of the road for this particular Leinster side. Peaked in 2018 with the double win and had chances to win last season's final but fell a bit short. This year we were closer on the scoreboard but the performance was much worse.

It's an new era, for sure but a good one...

Keenan
Larmour
Lowe
Kelleher
Baird
Ryan
Byrne of either name
Ringrose
Henshaw
Leavy
Connors
Dorris

Plenty young talent there to build on for the future...

razorblunt · 19-09-2020 7:35pm

salmocab wrote: »

Actually think the Leinster pack did have an answer to Billy V today. He wasn’t half as effective as normal. I’m sure someone will come along with stats to dispute it but from viewing he didn’t seem to be too effective. Now they had plenty of other stuff go right so it didn’t matter.

I thought Connors did a good job on him. Doris was poor, he’s Been a bit inconsistent since the restart and Conan was invisible. Conan seems untouchable in that 8 jersey.

ArmchairQB · 19-09-2020 7:36pm

Well done to Saracens who were worthy winners, I think Leo got the starting selection wrong, it happens but in hindsight starting Baird, Kelleher, VdF with Doris at 8 and Fardy or Ruddock at 6 with the other on the bench would possibly have done a better job. Furlong a huge loss and Bent and Byrne coming of the bench are not feared scrummager in the Champions cup knock out stages. Luke was poor today, Conan set the tone by overruling Dev and then knocking it on at first ko leading to an easy 3 pointer for Goode which gave him early confidence. Disappointing note to end season after a great year. Best in pro 14 by a long shot but Europe is where we want to be judged and ultimately and unfortunately we came up short.

razorblunt · 19-09-2020 7:42pm

ironingbored wrote: »

Difficult loss to take given how poorly we played in the first half.

At 17-22 we had a lineout maul 10mts out.
Wray and Rhodes both came in at the side and drove the maul to the sideline. Sarries were awarded a penalty.
The ref can be bad for both sides but there are times when a poor call at a pivotal moment can strongly influence a result.

Romaine Poite carded a Clermont player 21 mins in for cynically killing the ball in the 22. Wasn't an accumulation, multiple infringements.

Sarries gave away 3 penalties in their own 22 in the first half and nothing given.

Not saying Leinster even deserved to win but saying the ref wasn't at least a factor in the loss is naive.

p.s. stonewall penalty not given against Leinster when Wray poached late on.

p.p.s really stings that in 2 of the last 3 years, Leinster's reward for finishing top seed is a QF against Sarries - a team who arguably risked being stripped of titles for cheating.

Leinster gave away 7 penalties at the scrum and didn’t get carded.

Skyfloater · 19-09-2020 7:48pm

I'm really hoping that someone like Murray Kinsella does an analysis of the scrums to show that Sarries were boring in big time, because the alternative is pretty sobering for both Leinster and Ireland.

corny · 19-09-2020 7:51pm

I wonder why we didn't adapt to their plan at the lineout. They had a clear plan to their defensive maul which involved an open invitation to throw to the front. We didn't challenge them at all by throwing to the middle or the rear. Played right into their prep. They peeled off our support and got to the ball carrier almost every time. Mind you they got away with murder coming in at the side and collapsing all game.

Disappointed by the lack of aggression in the first half. We allowed them to bully us. Allowed is the correct word because the second half proved we could win collisions. It wasn't as keenly contested as i thought it might have been.

bilston · 19-09-2020 7:52pm

Clegg wrote: »

Just feel like this is the end of the road for this particular Leinster side. Peaked in 2018 with the double win and had chances to win last season's final but fell a bit short. This year we were closer on the scoreboard but the performance was much worse.

You have lost once in 26 matches Clegg and that was against a Saracens team playing for their careers in some cases.

shootermacg · 19-09-2020 8:05pm

Sarries played the way they always play, so it's not like Leinster didn't see it coming. They replaced VDF for a chop tackler, but the competition was always going to be in the air.

Leinster needed a Rob Kearney today.

Buer · 19-09-2020 8:11pm

razorblunt wrote: »

I thought Connors did a good job on him. Doris was poor, he’s Been a bit inconsistent since the restart and Conan was invisible. Conan seems untouchable in that 8 jersey.

What games have you been watching? Seriously.

Conan was ineffective but certainly not invisible. He carried the ball the exact same amount as Billy Vunipola. He was Leinster's go to man in the line out repeatedly. Both himself and Vunipola were well shackled but prominent to anyone watching.

Doris has been outstanding since the restart and very consistent. Today was the first day he didn't come up with a couple of big plays.

Guinness RFC · 19-09-2020 8:32pm

As sobering as that was to watch it highlights some blatant deficiencies in our team. Firstly, Healy and Porter were exposed at the very top level. In Porters case I think he never made the switch fully successfully to toghthead. He was humiliated in Twickenham by Genge in the scrum. I think there is a case for switching him back to loosehead. Healy for me has never been big enough to dominate against the top teams and while he is dynamic at his best he has never been one of the best in the world. His time is coming to an end and I think Porter switch is on the cards.

Cronin is good in open games but when it’s congested and tight he fails to shine. I’m not saying he had a bad game but he didn’t do anything to drag the team upwards in the tight. Kelleher came on and is more suited to that type of game with big impacts and close in exchanges and he played a part in moving the team gradually upfield for the first try with Baird. His darts were on target so that’s a plus but I think Cullen and McBryde have serious questions to answer. The front 5 haven’t been clicking since the season restarted most notably in the lineout and again in the scrum today. They just aren’t a unit and are fragmented and playing individually. By that I mean they should be hunting as a unit around the park and not scattered into drive and drabs in defence. They need to be hitting more rucks together in 2’s and 3’s. They need to be smarter and harder and looked soft and like deer in headlights today.

That goes for the second row. While Ryan carried and looked to confront itoje he looked slightly underpowered for the highest level despite being committed consummate professional. Toner was outplayed in the loose but we knew he would be. He’s there for the lineout and did his job but his days are coming to an end for European and international rugby. A great servant and another consummate professional nevertheless. Baird did well when he came on but looked slightly undersized for the top level. Getting Ryan and him on red meat and carb diets has to be the aim from now on. Extra KGs mightn’t help they might need a bit more dog in them also but it can’t hurt. Getting in a large loosehead, second row and 8 must be the priority if we are to compete at Europe in the future.

Backrow were anonymous but I thought Doris was the best of them. VDF did well after he came on and put in high tackle count and also stopped Billy V off the base. He looked better than Connors who looked completely anonymous in this game.

Halfback Luke is done and was never anything but a stop gap. We need to replace him if we’re going to challenge for Euro from now on. Sexton is done best move past him but I think H Byrne isn’t the answer as he would have been eaten alive today even if he was 7 years older. A better replacement needs to be found and I’d like to look at Frawley again here who has a bit more dog in him than either of the byrnes.

Centres are one of the positives. Consummate pros if lacking a bit of cutting edge in attack. They are the least of our worries and will do a job for us for the next 5 years.

Back 3 - Larmour is the weak link here. I like him but he isn’t the answer at 15. Any euro games in the future we will be targeted here and come up short again. Wings were good today Lowe only ok but Keenan impressive. There is a case for Keenan being our starting full back going forward as he outshone many of his teammates today.

Coaches are to blame, namely Cullen and McBryde. I’d give Cullen a chance to clean his act up and tidy up all facets of front 5 play - scrums lineout and maul. But I’d get rid of McBryde as quickly as possible. They were not at the races today preparation wise and mentally. That is a coaching shortfall and while some of the players can ship blame this mini season they haven’t been at the races in any of the games and that says to me the coaches aren’t doing their jobs.

A big Scrummaging expert looseHead, A bruiser second row, and a large Classens sized 8 is what we need to compete because our current young guns are able but slightly too small for the top level.

AdamD · 19-09-2020 8:33pm

Guinness RFC wrote: »

As sobering as that was to watch it highlights some blatant deficiencies in our team. Firstly, Healy and Porter were exposed at the very top level. In Porters case I think he never made the switch fully successfully to toghthead. He was humiliated in Twickenham by Genge in the scrum. I think there is a case for switching him back to loosehead. Healy for me has never been big enough to dominate against the top teams and while he is dynamic at his best he has never been one of the best in the world. His time is coming to an end and I think Porter switch is on the cards.

Cronin is good in open games but when it’s congested and tight he fails to shine. I’m not saying he had a bad game but he didn’t do anything to drag the team upwards in the tight. Kelleher came on and is more suited to that type of game with big impacts and close in exchanges and he played a part in moving the team gradually upfield for the first try with Baird. His darts were on target so that’s a plus but I think Cullen and McBryde have serious questions to answer. The front 5 haven’t been clicking since the season restarted most notably in the lineout and again in the scrum today. They just aren’t a unit and are fragmented and playing individually. By that I mean they should be hunting as a unit around the park and not scattered into drive and drabs in defence. They need to be hitting more rucks together in 2’s and 3’s. They need to be smarter and harder and looked soft and like deer in headlights today.

That goes for the second row. While Ryan carried and looked to confront itoje he looked slightly underpowered for the highest level despite being committed consummate professional. Toner was outplayed in the loose but we knew he would be. He’s there for the lineout and did his job but his days are coming to an end for European and international rugby. A great servant and another consummate professional nevertheless. Baird did well when he came on but looked slightly undersized for the top level. Getting Ryan and him on red meat and carb diets has to be the aim from now on. Extra KGs mightn’t help they might need a bit more dog in them also but it can’t hurt. Getting in a large loosehead, second row and 8 must be the priority if we are to compete at Europe in the future.

Backrow were anonymous but I thought Doris was the best of them. VDF did well after he came on and put in high tackle count and also stopped Billy V off the base. He looked better than Connors who looked completely anonymous in this game.

Halfback Luke is done and was never anything but a stop gap. We need to replace him if we’re going to challenge for Euro from now on. Sexton is done best move past him but I think H Byrne isn’t the answer as he would have been eaten alive today even if he was 7 years older. A better replacement needs to be found and I’d like to look at Frawley again here who has a bit more dog in him than either of the byrnes.

Centres are one of the positives. Consummate pros if lacking a bit of cutting edge in attack. They are the least of our worries and will do a job for us for the next 5 years.

Back 3 - Larmour is the weak link here. I like him but he isn’t the answer at 15. Any euro games in the future we will be targeted here and come up short again. Wings were good today Lowe only ok but Keenan impressive. There is a case for Keenan being our starting full back going forward as he outshone many of his teammates today.

Coaches are to blame, namely Cullen and McBryde. I’d give Cullen a chance to clean his act up and tidy up all facets of front 5 play - scrums lineout and maul. But I’d get rid of McBryde as quickly as possible. They were not at the races today preparation wise and mentally. That is a coaching shortfall and while some of the players can ship blame this mini season they haven’t been at the races in any of the games and that says to me the coaches aren’t doing their jobs.

A big Scrummaging expert looseHead, A bruiser second row, and a large Classens sized 8 is what we need to compete because our current young guns are able but slightly too small for the top level.

If this much was so drastically wrong Leinster would have lost by more

eagle eye · 19-09-2020 8:37pm

KaneToad wrote:

Plenty young talent there to build on for the future...

You didn't mention Deegan there, another young man with massive talent. He can play flanker or no.8 like Doris. Future is bright fir Leinster and Ireland.

Redgirl82 · 19-09-2020 8:42pm

Leinster lost 1 game this season, that included home and away wins against the in form French and English teams.

The lock down if anything has suited Saracens more than Leinster who would of been firing on all cylinders in March with a full Aviva behind them.

People are over reacting to a loss

Buer · 19-09-2020 8:44pm

Looking back at the stats, it's actually incredible how efficient and simple Saracens plan was. They won the game in three areas, defence (including an exceptionally smart maul defence), scrum and box kick. Nothing more. The try aside, Leinster actually shackled them exceptionally well in open play.

In 80 minutes of rugby, Saracens made 102m with the ball (I expect this to be updated but a solid initial indicator). That is a bizarrely low figure. They didn't have to play rugby. They didn't have to get through Leinster. They didn't have to beat defenders. They beat 1 defender in the match (Leinster beat 16).

Saracens have an exceptional understanding of how to zero in on a team's weaknesses and squeeze. What nobody counted on today was just how influential the scrum would be.

Leinster were always going to have to weather the storm and they would have the opportunity to come back at Saracens. The gap was far too big at that point though the scrum gave Saracens an easy exit every time.

You have to respect their ability to identity the gaps and throttle the opposition based on that strategy. They don't deviate. They keep it simple and they execute it with ridiculous levels of efficiency and accuracy e.g. Wigglesworth giving an absolute masterclass of box kicking.

Redgirl82 · 19-09-2020 8:46pm

Guinness RFC wrote: »

As sobering as that was to watch it highlights some blatant deficiencies in our team. Firstly, Healy and Porter were exposed at the very top level. In Porters case I think he never made the switch fully successfully to toghthead. He was humiliated in Twickenham by Genge in the scrum. I think there is a case for switching him back to loosehead. Healy for me has never been big enough to dominate against the top teams and while he is dynamic at his best he has never been one of the best in the world. His time is coming to an end and I think Porter switch is on the cards.

Cronin is good in open games but when it’s congested and tight he fails to shine. I’m not saying he had a bad game but he didn’t do anything to drag the team upwards in the tight. Kelleher came on and is more suited to that type of game with big impacts and close in exchanges and he played a part in moving the team gradually upfield for the first try with Baird. His darts were on target so that’s a plus but I think Cullen and McBryde have serious questions to answer. The front 5 haven’t been clicking since the season restarted most notably in the lineout and again in the scrum today. They just aren’t a unit and are fragmented and playing individually. By that I mean they should be hunting as a unit around the park and not scattered into drive and drabs in defence. They need to be hitting more rucks together in 2’s and 3’s. They need to be smarter and harder and looked soft and like deer in headlights today.

That goes for the second row. While Ryan carried and looked to confront itoje he looked slightly underpowered for the highest level despite being committed consummate professional. Toner was outplayed in the loose but we knew he would be. He’s there for the lineout and did his job but his days are coming to an end for European and international rugby. A great servant and another consummate professional nevertheless. Baird did well when he came on but looked slightly undersized for the top level. Getting Ryan and him on red meat and carb diets has to be the aim from now on. Extra KGs mightn’t help they might need a bit more dog in them also but it can’t hurt. Getting in a large loosehead, second row and 8 must be the priority if we are to compete at Europe in the future.

Backrow were anonymous but I thought Doris was the best of them. VDF did well after he came on and put in high tackle count and also stopped Billy V off the base. He looked better than Connors who looked completely anonymous in this game.

Halfback Luke is done and was never anything but a stop gap. We need to replace him if we’re going to challenge for Euro from now on. Sexton is done best move past him but I think H Byrne isn’t the answer as he would have been eaten alive today even if he was 7 years older. A better replacement needs to be found and I’d like to look at Frawley again here who has a bit more dog in him than either of the byrnes.

Centres are one of the positives. Consummate pros if lacking a bit of cutting edge in attack. They are the least of our worries and will do a job for us for the next 5 years.

Back 3 - Larmour is the weak link here. I like him but he isn’t the answer at 15. Any euro games in the future we will be targeted here and come up short again. Wings were good today Lowe only ok but Keenan impressive. There is a case for Keenan being our starting full back going forward as he outshone many of his teammates today.

Coaches are to blame, namely Cullen and McBryde. I’d give Cullen a chance to clean his act up and tidy up all facets of front 5 play - scrums lineout and maul. But I’d get rid of McBryde as quickly as possible. They were not at the races today preparation wise and mentally. That is a coaching shortfall and while some of the players can ship blame this mini season they haven’t been at the races in any of the games and that says to me the coaches aren’t doing their jobs.

A big Scrummaging expert looseHead, A bruiser second row, and a large Classens sized 8 is what we need to compete because our current young guns are able but slightly too small for the top level.

Might as well just sack everyone and start again

Seriously what are you going on about, they lost 1 game. They are one of the best teams in the World who had an off day.

Now your sacking coach’s and getting rid of one of the most talented young players in Ireland

Baffling your “Analysis”

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 8:50pm

Buer wrote: »

Looking back at the stats, it's actually incredible how efficient and simple Saracens plan was. They won the game in three areas, defence (including an exceptionally smart maul defence), scrum and box kick. Nothing more. The try aside, Leinster actually shackled them exceptionally well in open play.

In 80 minutes of rugby, Saracens made 102m with the ball (I expect this to be updated but a solid initial indicator). That is a bizarrely low figure. They didn't have to play rugby. They didn't have to get through Leinster. They didn't have to beat defenders. They beat 1 defender in the match (Leinster beat 16).

Saracens have an exceptional understanding of how to zero in on a team's weaknesses and squeeze. What nobody counted on today was just how influential the scrum would be.

Leinster were always going to have to weather the storm and they would have the opportunity to come back at Saracens. The gap was far too big at that point though the scrum gave Saracens an easy exit every time.

You have to respect their ability to identity the gaps and throttle the opposition based on that strategy. They don't deviate. They keep it simple and they execute it with ridiculous levels of efficiency and accuracy e.g. Wigglesworth giving an absolute masterclass of box kicking.

Incredibly frustrating that Leinster didn't adapt to their game plan at all. No answer for the defensive line speed, no counter acting their boring at the scrum. Contrast to 2011, where Northampton were similarly bossing them.

lawrencesummers · 19-09-2020 8:53pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Sarries played the way they always play, so it's not like Leinster didn't see it coming. They replaced VDF for a chop tackler, but the competition was always going to be in the air.

Leinster needed a Rob Kearney today.

Not remotely close.

The game wasn’t lost because of the aerial battle, it was lost on the front line with the Pack getting hammered in set piece and broken play.

The perfect example of this is the phases that were part of Sexton getting hit high by Rhodes In which Leinster made 30 phases and didn’t get into the Sarries 22.

That’s the winning and losing of the game, the gain line, the breakdown and the fact that the pack was just completely outplayed.

You could have had two Rob Kearney’s in the back field and it won’t matter if your getting handed your hole in contact.

kennedmc · 19-09-2020 8:54pm

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Some soccer mentality in here lads, blame the ref, sack the coaches, retire the players. Leinster well beaten on the day. They'll say that themselves.

You mean rugby mentality

Tim Robbins · 19-09-2020 8:57pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Itoje is incredible. When he has so many borderline penalty incidents you realise it's skill and not luck. He's a machine.

That one where the ref told two Sarries players to release and he just there ready to poach said it all. The most alert player on the field.

Another ref, could have gone well I'll actually give the penalty for tackler not releasing, instead he reads the ref perfectly, waits for him to shout release and then pounce.

Clegg · 19-09-2020 8:58pm

We saw very little of the attacking kicking game Leinster had integrated into their tactics since the restart. That was touted as the way to beat Saracens. We'd used grubbers and chips over the top to counteract opposition linespeed and also score trys. I wonder did our players get spooked by Saracens scrum and scoreboard dominance and think we needed to hold onto the ball to at all cost.

kennedmc · 19-09-2020 9:07pm

Redgirl82 wrote: »

McCall would not be able to sign him way out of trouble like Sarries

Plus the amount of complaints because of Joe style of rugby, imagine watching Ireland playing like Sarries week in week out....you wonder why they have very few supporters, it’s awful stuff

you'd swear we attack like Toulouse! Our attack is a lot of 1 out passes and trucking it up in the opposition 22. Works against pro 14 cannon fodder but we do struggle against more physical teams. We need more variation in our attack.

We had one nice set move today for our try but sarries try was very good too.

Re Ross Byrne he's a decent player but he's a bit one dimensional. He also tends to just shovel the ball on making it easier for opposition defenses.

The sooner Harry comes through the better - plays with more variation and looks a more skillful player and more willing to take ball to gain line.

Redgirl82 · 19-09-2020 9:08pm

kennedmc wrote: »

you'd swear we attack like Toulouse! Our attack is a lot of 1 out passes and trucking it up in the opposition 22. Works against pro 14 cannon fodder but we do struggle against more physical teams. We need more variation in our attack.

We had one nice set move today for our try but sarries try was very good too.

Re Ross Byrne he's a decent player but he's a bit one dimensional. He also tends to just shovel the ball on making it easier for opposition defenses.

The sooner Harry comes through the better - plays with more variation and looks a more skillful player and more willing to take ball to gain line.

Yes one dimensional

How many times have we lost in Europe in the last 4 season?

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 9:09pm

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Yes one dimensional

How many times have we lost in Europe in the last 4 season?

Everytime it counted

Redgirl82 · 19-09-2020 9:12pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Everytime it counted

Did Leinster not win a European cup in the last 4 years?

Anyway, how many times?

Heres Johnny · 19-09-2020 9:14pm

kennedmc wrote: »

You mean rugby mentality

Unfortunately yes.
Guess I'm just old school. When I was playing and coaching any of my team that started blaming referees as reason why we lost went down in my estimation. Every game I lost we were beaten in the field in my opinion. Wasn't our coaches fault, nor the referees. It was the players. Sometimes we played ****e and lost, sometimes we played well but a better team beat us. Weak minds blame refs and coaches. You can be pretty sure none of the leinster team are blaming Cullen or the ref tonight. I'd say each and every one, being professionals, are ruing the fact they didn't do more personally.

Buer · 19-09-2020 9:16pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Incredibly frustrating that Leinster didn't adapt to their game plan at all. No answer for the defensive line speed, no counter acting their boring at the scrum. Contrast to 2011, where Northampton were similarly bossing them.

There's no comparison between this Saracens team and Northampton of 2011. Saracens would demolish that team.

It's very easy to ask why there wasn't variation but it's never that easy. If it was, world class players would easily unlock such a tactic. NZ couldn't counteract that level of linespeed and physicality in the RWC.

Saracens were in the first receiver's face when he got the ball. If we wanted to use a kicking game, then we'd have to stand 5 yards deeper and Saracens back three are excellent at dealing with kicks and sweeping behind as well as Wigglesworth.

The scrum should have been counteracted but we lack a scrummaging specialist in the squad right now. There is no Mike Ross or Julian White type player. Koch is that man for Saracens.

Guinness RFC · 19-09-2020 9:17pm

kennedmc wrote: »

you'd swear we attack like Toulouse! Our attack is a lot of 1 out passes and trucking it up in the opposition 22. Works against pro 14 cannon fodder but we do struggle against more physical teams. We need more variation in our attack.

We had one nice set move today for our try but sarries try was very good too.

Re Ross Byrne he's a decent player but he's a bit one dimensional. He also tends to just shovel the ball on making it easier for opposition defenses.

The sooner Harry comes through the better - plays with more variation and looks a more skillful player and more willing to take ball to gain line.

Reality check. I know I’m dealing in hypotheticals but Harry would have been eaten alive today. Period. He is a very average player behind a beaten pack and I don’t know where the idea of him having the ability to take the ball to the gainline comes from. He would have been broken in half if he was on the pitch.

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 9:21pm

Buer wrote: »

There's no comparison between this Saracens team and Northampton of 2011. Saracens would demolish that team.

It's very easy to ask why there wasn't variation but it's never that easy. If it was, world class players would easily unlock such a tactic. NZ couldn't counteract that level of linespeed and physicality in the RWC.

Saracens were in the first receiver's face when he got the ball. If we wanted to use a kicking game, then we'd have to stand 5 yards deeper and Saracens back three are excellent at dealing with kicks and sweeping behind as well as Wigglesworth.

The scrum should have been counteracted but we lack a scrummaging specialist in the squad right now. There is no Mike Ross or Julian White type player. Koch is that man for Saracens.

Would disagree that there wasn't any opportunities. Saracens had effective line speed but there were plenty of times we got the ball in space. The overall lack of an invention was disappointing. No pick and goes, forwards and backs linking up. We just ran into their defenders repeatedly. None of that is a panacea, bit for experienced players to be unable to adapt is disappointing. Tends to be a feature when Irish teams fail in big moments. That and lacking intensity.

The comparison with 2011 is more for the scrum. Northampton were doing the same messing with boring in, mullered us in the first half. Yet the team adapted, with the key moment being them winning one against the head in the second half.

AbusesToilets · 19-09-2020 9:24pm

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Did Leinster not win a European cup in the last 4 years?

Anyway, how many times?

They've lost twice to Saracens, in similarly humiliating fashion.

Happydays2020 · 19-09-2020 9:30pm

What happened with the Leinster scrum?

yerrahbah · 19-09-2020 9:33pm

I think Leinster were still concerned over their own lineout,

I cant remember them throwing past the front of the lineout.

Every time it was throw to the front and maul, that really takes away from the lineout as an offensive weapon

dh1985 · 19-09-2020 9:37pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They've lost twice to Saracens, in similarly humiliating fashion.

Dominated but not humiliated. By one of the strongest if not the strongest core of a team to play in European rugby ever. Both days I am sure leinster will.look backa and say they could have done things differently but saracens have a technique of squeezing and suffocating teams and it's very effective. Marry that with the absolute power and how clinical they are it's very hard to beat them. Leinster have not become a bad team over night and have the core of a young team and an conveyor belt of players coming through. A couple of impact additions to the current squad and leinster will continue to prosper in europe. But the best team in europe won today. Its unfortunate leinster let them accrue and insurmountable lead

19-09-2020 9:52pm

Don't bother. This is what you're dealing with.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Love seeing Itoje smiling and clapping. Icing on the cake

Leinster v Saracens

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