Predicted Grades Appeals

rainbowtrout · 05-09-2020 9:35pm

RealJohn wrote: »

I agree, but in the cold light of day, I think most students will opt not to sit the exams, even if they’re disappointed with their results, as long as they’ve been offered a college place they’re willing to try, or if they’re not going to college and their pretend grades are good enough for what the want (plc/army/Gardaí, etc).

With 83% of grades unchanged, and triple the number of H1s there isn’t too much for the vast majority of LCs to be disappointed about

Mardy Bum · 05-09-2020 9:51pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

With 83% of grades unchanged, and triple the number of H1s there isn’t too much for the vast majority of LCs to be disappointed about

Points will rise. Not all courses will have increased places. There will be more random entries. Students will be disappointed.

deiseindublin · 05-09-2020 10:54pm

It will make it very difficult for LC 2021 if points rise this year and students defer or reapply for 2021 entr. It can't be a level playing field with inflated grades this year?

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 05-09-2020 10:57pm

This is going to be a shitstorm for all parties.

Digs · 05-09-2020 11:21pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

It will make it very difficult for LC 2021 if points rise this year and students defer or reapply for 2021 entr. It can't be a level playing field with inflated grades this year?

Not to mention every pre 2020 LC student who has applied this year.

brighterspark · 06-09-2020 7:15pm

Preston Rotten Thunderstorm wrote: »

I had steeled myself for "what madcap u turn or ill conceived plan have they rushed out now?", but I was not prepared for that. Personally I think there is a hardcore troll in charge of DES circulars and press releases so I shouldn't be surprised.

Looks like circular has been updated !

mirrorwall14 · 06-09-2020 7:21pm

16 page document, Irish first with information and procedures for schools that are relevant and needed for 9am tomorrow when they release the results. They are a thundering disgrace

brighterspark · 06-09-2020 7:33pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

16 page document, Irish first with information and procedures for schools that are relevant and needed for 9am tomorrow when they release the results. They are a thundering disgrace

Very useful to know schools can release students from class tomorrow (to free up staff to support exam students) on a Sunday night!

amacca · 06-09-2020 8:23pm

brighterspark wrote: »

Very useful to know schools can release students from class tomorrow (to free up staff to support exam students) on a Sunday night!

eh what?.......release existing students from class??

release them where? when? for how long? onto school grounds unsupervised (as the other teachers will be in their classes) or release them home ...so that the teacher can do what......high five the ones who got what they wanted and commiserate with those that didnt??

and schools find that out the sunday beforehand??

ffs how about whats done is done there is literally no need for the students to be on the school grounds tomorrow as they cant be congregating anyway (half the point of coming in)...and if there is a problem the teacher can do sweet f all about it anyway...all that can be appealed is the clerical side of things

joebloggs32 · 06-09-2020 8:27pm

amacca wrote: »

eh what?.......release existing students from class??

release them where? when? for how long? onto school grounds unsupervised (as the other teachers will be in their classes) or release them home ...so that the teacher can do what......high five the ones who got what they wanted and commiserate with those that didnt??

and schools find that out the sunday beforehand??

ffs how about whats done is done there is literally no need for the students to be on the school grounds tomorrow as they cant be congregating anyway (half the point of coming in)...and if there is a problem the teacher can do sweet f all about it anyway...all that can be appealed is the clerical side of things

That was flagged in a letter sent out on Thursday by the TUI

"Schools have been advised to provide support to students in an appropriate way on the day, through enabling students to come to the school if they wish at a scheduled time, following COVID-19 and health and safety protocols, to meet with members of the Student Support Team such as Guidance Counsellors, Year Heads, Tutors and Chaplains. Schools will have the flexibility to ask some classes of current students not to attend school on that day to ensure adequate social distancing in schools."

amacca · 06-09-2020 8:32pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

That was flagged in a letter sent out on Thursday by the TUI

"Schools have been advised to provide support to students in an appropriate way on the day, through enabling students to come to the school if they wish at a scheduled time, following COVID-19 and health and safety protocols, to meet with members of the Student Support Team such as Guidance Counsellors, Year Heads, Tutors and Chaplains. Schools will have the flexibility to ask some classes of current students not to attend school on that day to ensure adequate social distancing in schools."

hmmm so the circular only has it officially in it on sunday evening though?

I suppose it is workable to some extent as described above but unlikely many would take it up surely and school management cant be expected to plan for it only receiving circular today?

rainbowtrout · 06-09-2020 8:32pm

The current students have missed enough time without leaving them home for another day. If there are LC students who want someone to talk to then I think the most appropriate course of action is to let them have access to guidance counsellor / chaplain etc by appointment. Not a free for all.

Our TYs are being left at home tomorrow in favour of last years LCs.

deiseindublin · 06-09-2020 8:36pm

I can't see the circular? Yesterday's link not working either.

Jajadog · 06-09-2020 8:54pm

Just curious..did most teachers here ‘inflate’ their students grades? If not I’m not sure why everyone keeps referring to them as ‘ inflated grades’. It’s a bit of a kick in the teeth to hardworking students who absolutely deserve their predicted grades. Seeing that term all over the media can’t be very nice for the LC students.

rainbowtrout · 06-09-2020 9:11pm

Jajadog wrote: »

Just curious..did most teachers here ‘inflate’ their students grades? If not I’m not sure why everyone keeps referring to them as ‘ inflated grades’. It’s a bit of a kick in the teeth to hardworking students who absolutely deserve their predicted grades. Seeing that term all over the media can’t be very nice for the LC students.

The media have reported that there are triple the number of H1s, so that would indicated grade inflation nationally.... but I see what you did there. Nice try.

km79 · 06-09-2020 9:15pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

I can't see the circular? Yesterday's link not working either.

Nothing on website now

r93kaey5p2izun · 06-09-2020 9:20pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

I can't see the circular? Yesterday's link not working either.

The original link to the joke document worked for me a few hours ago and downloaded the updated document. But I see it's not listed on the DES website now and link no longer working. They really are a shambles.

am_zarathustra · 06-09-2020 10:10pm

This is a literal omnishambles, did anyone manage to download the circular before it disappeared?

Mardy Bum · 06-09-2020 10:35pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

This is a literal omnishambles, did anyone manage to download the circular before it disappeared?

Maybe the Inspectorate could divert their attention to the DES for the next two years and fix it before attempting to evaluate schools.

joe40 · 06-09-2020 10:38pm

Jajadog wrote: »

Just curious..did most teachers here ‘inflate’ their students grades? If not I’m not sure why everyone keeps referring to them as ‘ inflated grades’. It’s a bit of a kick in the teeth to hardworking students who absolutely deserve their predicted grades. Seeing that term all over the media can’t be very nice for the LC students.

I hate the term grade inflation, but if teachers give as accurate assessment as they possibly can then it is still inevitable that grades will be better this year.
That does not indicate incompetence or malpractice on part of teachers.
Every year there will statistically be a certain number of pupils that will underperform. Either through nerves on the day or insufficient preparation in the few weeks beforehand.

It is impossible for a teacher to identify these individual pupils, in the calculated grades process. Therefore results this year will be better than previous years.

bobbyy gee · 06-09-2020 10:41pm

The grades will be very lite this year so people will get better grades than they deserve
So you going to get a lot of university drop outs as they can't keep up

am_zarathustra · 06-09-2020 11:17pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Maybe the Inspectorate could divert their attention to the DES for the next two years and fix it before attempting to evaluate schools.

I can't remember who suggested it but putting them back in classroom in DEIS schools given the shortage of teachers is still my favourite repurposing of staff. Sure they are experts .....

amacca · 06-09-2020 11:46pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I can't remember who suggested it but putting them back in classroom in DEIS schools given the shortage of teachers is still my favourite repurposing of staff. Sure they are experts .....

+100000000

With the same lack of resources, disciplinary back up, micro management, and the full complement of meaningless box ticking ass covering documentation/planning .... etc etc

+ full hours, mixed ability classes anx expect them to take a team or two and give up the odd weekend + evenings and maybe even get no sleep on the foreign tour along with getting the sitting through the full monty jct wellbeing inservices etc etc

Lets see them coming out bright eyed and bushy tailed out of that

rainbowtrout · 06-09-2020 11:50pm

amacca wrote: »

+100000000

With the same lack of resources, disciplinary back up, micro management, and the full complement of meaningless box ticking ass covering documentation/planning .... etc etc

I would expect them to attend all Croke Park hours, and sit through inservice on the new Junior Cycle and go for many ghost walks....

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-09-2020 12:17am

I once had a student zip his jacket up over his head and tell the inspector to fcuk off, then chant "get rid of her" after she tried to interact with him. I'm all for inspectors back in the classroom.

Mardy Bum · 07-09-2020 6:45am

Who would have thought accountancy teachers would be the most generous (least accurate) teachers in the country? Almost 18% of students given H 1s!

What a mess!

am_zarathustra · 07-09-2020 8:23am

It very hard to know between subjects. I'd be very confident of my Biology grades, I've corrected for the SEC. I know the scheme, it's reasonable predictable and the variance year to year in the scheme is minimal.

HL maths, honestly, a stats heavy paper 2 and calculus heavy paper one would have put one student at number one. More probability, it would have been a different student. Part of the problem is not being able to see the exam in some subjects I'd imagine. Might have three capable of a H1 but then you are the paper and know if just won't suit student X and they will probably get a good H2. Without the paper these predications become much harder

touts · 07-09-2020 8:27am

Norma Foley on Morning Ireland already hanging teachers out to dry in relation to the way the grades were calculated.

Treppen · 07-09-2020 8:30am

Wow Norma on RTE radio hasn't a clue.

She says students will have access to the material used to calculate the grade.

Interview asked her about the department requesting that teachers destroy material used for the calculation of the grade and she said it wasn't the department who said that.

touts · 07-09-2020 8:35am

Treppen wrote: »

Wow Norma on RTE radio hasn't a clue.

She says students will have access to the material used to calculate the grade.

Interview asked her about the department requesting that teachers destroy material used for the calculation of the grade and she said it wasn't the department who said that.

Lawyer up lads because it's pretty certain the department is preparing to blame local teachers as a central plank of their defence of the incoming high court cases.

mirrorwall14 · 07-09-2020 8:39am

Wtaf was that interview? She hadn’t a clue. Has she even seen the form?? There’s nothing like that level of detail on it and we destroyed our spreadsheets we calculated with as instructed

Ll31 · 07-09-2020 8:43am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jajadog View Post
Just curious..did most teachers here ‘inflate’ their students grades? If not I’m not sure why everyone keeps referring to them as ‘ inflated grades’. It’s a bit of a kick in the teeth to hardworking students who absolutely deserve their predicted grades. Seeing that term all over the media can’t be very nice for the LC students.
I hate the term grade inflation, but if teachers give as accurate assessment as they possibly can then it is still inevitable that grades will be better this year.
That does not indicate incompetence or malpractice on part of teachers.
Every year there will statistically be a certain number of pupils that will underperform. Either through nerves on the day or insufficient preparation in the few weeks beforehand.

It is impossible for a teacher to identify these individual pupils, in the calculated grades process. Therefore results this year will be better than previous years.
joe40 is offline Report Post

But that's not really an explanation. Every year there will also be students who over perform too . I dont blame teachers but theres no doubt that there has been grade inflation.

I agree with poster above tho who says the dept should be made fit for purpose. Since last March they should have had someone looking at how to do calculated grades with a view to having advice in place at the start of this school year. Now maybe theyve done that but I dont know. Otherwise we'll possibly have the same situation this year ....

Mardy Bum · 07-09-2020 9:15am

touts wrote: »

Norma Foley on Morning Ireland already hanging teachers out to dry in relation to the way the grades were calculated.

Since this utterly defunct system was mentioned by radio DJs in March, it has been noted that it would fail. The government knew this and it wasn't an oversight. This is exactly what they wanted to happen and having a teacher as MoE is the perfect cherry on top for FF/FG.

Multipass · 07-09-2020 9:21am

I wouldn’t pay any attention to anything in the media today - they’ve been salivating waiting for the chance to stir up some stories. Well done to all the students, inflated or not, they got through this horrible year.

shesty · 07-09-2020 9:27am

At this point....if they aren't able for their college course, time will tell that.

They are in the adult world now.

rainbowtrout · 07-09-2020 9:31am

Treppen wrote: »

Wow Norma on RTE radio hasn't a clue.

She says students will have access to the material used to calculate the grade.

Interview asked her about the department requesting that teachers destroy material used for the calculation of the grade and she said it wasn't the department who said that.

Clearly whatever media training happened in the last month wasn't enough.

km79 · 07-09-2020 10:21am

I’m going to come right out and say it
I told ye so

She is an absolute disaster
The portfolio needed an experienced steady hand
Instead we got a county councilor because she was a teacher

Comer1 · 07-09-2020 10:41am

I wonder what kind of inflation can we expect on points requirements for college places?

Valeofhoney · 07-09-2020 10:43am

touts wrote: »

Norma Foley on Morning Ireland already hanging teachers out to dry in relation to the way the grades were calculated.

Teacher in clonmel gave H4 to student who was asked to go back to Ordinary maths and failing all class tests also same Teacher gave a H7 to a student that never sat class tests and went home most days maths was on in afternoon.

Treppen · 07-09-2020 10:45am

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Wtaf was that interview? She hadn’t a clue. Has she even seen the form?? There’s nothing like that level of detail on it and we destroyed our spreadsheets we calculated with as instructed

From the journal https://www.thejournal.ie/live-reaction-as-the-class-of-2020-receive-their-leaving-cert-results-from-9am-5197551-Sep2020/

When asked about whether teachers destroyed supporting documentation to help them arrive at their calculated mark, Foley told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland that teachers had to fill in two forms where they highlighted the evidence where they got their grade information.

“That information is all available and retained in the schools and will be available to the appeals process. Certainly the Form A and Form B [that teachers fill in] is retained within the school,” Foley said this morning.

johnmcdnl · 07-09-2020 10:54am

joe40 wrote: »

I hate the term grade inflation, but if teachers give as accurate assessment as they possibly can then it is still inevitable that grades will be better this year.
That does not indicate incompetence or malpractice on part of teachers.
Every year there will statistically be a certain number of pupils that will underperform. Either through nerves on the day or insufficient preparation in the few weeks beforehand.

It is impossible for a teacher to identify these individual pupils, in the calculated grades process. Therefore results this year will be better than previous years.

Surely there's also the students who do the opposite and ace the exam on the day despite perhaps being 'weaker' in class. Those students who are smart but are lazy and don't do homework etc and don't study throughout the year but then absolutely hit the books the last month and do far better than you would expect. How many students got a kick up the arse having done poorly in the mocks in February that scared them into studying harder but didn't have that opportunity this year.

I don't know the numbers but it's foolish to just look at one side. Some students would do better than expected in the written exam under pressure, while others as you mention would of worse.

I imagine that it's just the human nature of teachers which has been shown here with these results, with teachers on average giving the benefit of the doubt to students hence the overall 'grade inflation'. I don't blame the teachers nor the department for it, I honestly thought the figures would be even more out of line. It's an unprecedented situation to be in and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight a better solution could be found.

Millionaire only not · 07-09-2020 10:56am

Valeofhoney wrote: »

Teacher in clonmel gave H4 to student who was asked to go back to Ordinary maths and failing all class tests also same Teacher gave a H7 to a student that never sat class tests and went home most days maths was on in afternoon.

Do u agree with what the teacher done or u disagree ?
Either one won’t be doing open heart surgery so I wouldn’t stress over it !!

titan18 · 07-09-2020 10:59am

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Do u agree with what the teacher done or u disagree ?
Either one won’t be doing open heart surgery so I wouldn’t stress over it !!

It's a bit crap for someone who came back with past LC results and might miss the course they want to do cos of grades like that though. Or if those students wait until next year and up against students who actually sit the exam.

Mrsmum · 07-09-2020 11:08am

It's sounds like it was a case of teachers giving grades that their students were capable of on their very best day. Which makes perfect sense to me. You could hardly grade on what a student might possible get on a bad day. Also weren't teachers saying online and that that they would be blamed for ruining Johnny or Mary's life so with that fear, natural to give the benefit of the doubt/ err on the bright side.

Dempo1 · 07-09-2020 11:32am

Is this all too good to be true?, record results throughout? I'm delighted for anyone who got great results but I'm sensing this is all turning out to be just too good to be true.

Chiparus · 07-09-2020 11:50am

Dempo1 wrote: »

Is this all too good to be true?, record results throughout? I'm delighted for anyone who got great results but I'm sensing this is all turning out to be just too good to be true.

Not all happy, my child was predicted to get 560-590 after their mocks . only got 554, thinking of sitting some subjects in November.

Dempo1 · 07-09-2020 11:55am

Chiparus wrote: »

Not all happy, my child was predicted to get 560-590 after their mocks . only got 554, thinking of sitting some subjects in November.

Sorry to hear this, seems very close.

crossman47 · 07-09-2020 12:17pm

Chiparus wrote: »

Not all happy, my child was predicted to get 560-590 after their mocks . only got 554, thinking of sitting some subjects in November.

Well, he/she more or less got that. Best of luck if he/she sits it in November.

mirrorwall14 · 07-09-2020 12:55pm

Treppen wrote: »

From the journal https://www.thejournal.ie/live-reaction-as-the-class-of-2020-receive-their-leaving-cert-results-from-9am-5197551-Sep2020/

When asked about whether teachers destroyed supporting documentation to help them arrive at their calculated mark, Foley told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland that teachers had to fill in two forms where they highlighted the evidence where they got their grade information.

“That information is all available and retained in the schools and will be available to the appeals process. Certainly the Form A and Form B [that teachers fill in] is retained within the school,” Foley said this morning.

She said that the data we used to fill in those forms was retained in the school. Specifically mentioned mock results etc. She also suggested that the forms we filled in detailed out HLW we had reached the grade. It did not. We literally ticked a box to say we took ‘x’ into account. We certainly did not write on the form the results/tests etc we used.

Newbie20 · 07-09-2020 1:46pm

I have to say that this whole thing has angered me. We were asked to give the results as accurate as we could which I did. I know of some teachers, not many, that gave unrealistic results. I was ok with this because I said to myself that they would be brought down anyway with the standardisation.

Once again they bowed to media pressure of it “being unfair” if people are downgraded. It’s not unfair, it happens every single year. They should have been brought in line with previous years. What the hell did they actually do since June seeing as they didn’t change most of them?!

By doing this and hanging the teachers out to dry, they have ensured it can never happen again. Because if they did come along and ask me to do the same thing next June, I’ll treat their system with the same disrespect they showed to us and I’ll give every last one of my students a H1 and they can ****ing deal with it!

Predicted Grades Appeals

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