Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

lotusm · 10-08-2012 10:52am

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Knock should never have been opened in the first place.

Will Knock is still there after Sligo and Galway have gone to the wall so it must be doing something right. Suppose 700k travellers anticipated to use it this year must have never heard of shannon... If the M20 is ever done between Cork and Shannon then shannon and more so Kerry airport have alot more to fear:cool:

westtip · 10-08-2012 11:03am

lotusm wrote: »

Will Knock is still there after Sligo and Galway have gone to the wall so it must be doing something right. Suppose 700k travellers anticipated to use it this year must have never heard of shannon... If the M20 is ever done between Cork and Shannon then shannon and more so Kerry airport have alot more to fear:cool:

I think there is room for both airports in the west, for Knock the development of the N17 is key - to bring Galway closer in time, and indeed to make the Midlands more accessible, in addition the development of N17 north to Sligo will help. As said there is room for both, Knock is providing a great service for the West, North West and Midlands to our primary economic market the UK; the number of people commuting weekly for work through Knock from the west is pretty high and there are still huge connections to the UK: Family, friends, business that will keep Knock going. It is also critically important for West of Ireland tourism - whether it should have been built is now largely irrelevant, it is a very well managed business and is not going away!

yer man! · 10-08-2012 12:33pm

lotusm wrote: »

Will Knock is still there after Sligo and Galway have gone to the wall so it must be doing something right. Suppose 700k travellers anticipated to use it this year must have never heard of shannon... If the M20 is ever done between Cork and Shannon then shannon and more so Kerry airport have alot more to fear:cool:

Would the M20 not benefit Shannon more so than Knock....?

lotusm · 10-08-2012 12:58pm

yer man! wrote: »

Would the M20 not benefit Shannon more so than Knock....?

I think more traffic will go to Cork airport once the M20 is done

dowlingm · 13-08-2012 3:23pm

Knock is not closing while Enda is Taoiseach. End of.

westtip · 13-08-2012 3:59pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Knock is not closing while Enda is Taoiseach. End of.

One thing is for sure if Knock is closed, then the Western rail corridor certainly will never open! No Knock won't be closed and don't know how we got down this line of thought, because Enda or anyone else will not allow it; but as said before a greenway on the WRC would be big tourism benefit for Knock airport, and would certainly benefit Charlestown, Swinford and Kiltimagh a lot more than the WRC with the potential of 3 or 4 trains a day costing the state a fortune to keep on the rails.

13-08-2012 7:31pm

yer man! wrote: »

Jesus I hope it's Shannon, way better airport, between two cities next to a fairly big town, on a motorway that leads to Galway, Limerick and thus to Dublin. Longer runway also and a coast guard base. Knock is planted in the middle of Mayo on a hill (can it even expand?) and has single carriageway connection. If the economy picks up again, there's no reason why both couldn't survive.

Its not in the middle of Mayo. Mullingar residents are closer to Knock than the people of west Mayo. Knock airport is on the border of Sligo, Roscommon and Mayo. Knock will survive while the people of the West and North West use it(which they do in ever increasing numbers). Shannon is only open because the Government continue to bail it out, that won't continue forever. Knock is open because its commercially viable. Those are the facts.

If Knock ever did close(which is very unlikely) Dublin would be closer than Shannon for most of Knocks Clientele. The bigger question is which of Kerry, Cork or Shannon will close, as Munster has obviously too many airports.

There isn't a reason for any rail links to Knock, improve the bus times and bus links instead. Or spend the money on that terrible cart road the N5 in Roscommon or N17 in Sligo. A greenway extension to Knock via Charlestown and Tuam should be the priority for expanding on the success of the greenway in the west of the county.

yer man! · 13-08-2012 7:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a long way from the middle of Mayo. Its on the border of Sligo, Roscommon and Mayo. Knock will survive while the people of the West and North West use it. Shannon is only open because the Government keep bailing it out, that won't continue forever. Knock is open because its commercially viable. Those are the facts.

If Knock ever did close Dublin would be closer than Shannon for most of Knocks Clientele. The bigger question is which of Kerry, Cork or Shannon will close, as Munster has obviously too many airports.

Ya but Shannon is more accessible for Galway people and Clare people, if I can't fly out of Shannon then I'll chose Dublin. I can get to shannon by car in under an hour and if I was to fly from Dublin I'd take the express bus. I hate the road to knock and I don't like the airport. Knock caters for the North west, Shannon caters for west and south west basically. But this is getting off topic.....

13-08-2012 8:17pm

yer man! wrote: »

Ya but Shannon is more accessible for Galway people and Clare people, if I can't fly out of Shannon then I'll chose Dublin. I can get to shannon by car in under an hour and if I was to fly from Dublin I'd take the express bus. I hate the road to knock and I don't like the airport. Knock caters for the North west, Shannon caters for west and south west basically. But this is getting off topic.....

Tuam is only 40 minutes from Knock Airport, Knock caters for the West and North West. It may shock you to know that Galway isn't even half way up the coast of Ireland. People do actually live North of Galway city;).

If Knock could tie into the Greenway it would offer lots of potential to those German and and French tourists that already use the Greenway. Imagine safely cycling to and from the airport right out to the west coast. The WRC is just wasting money, maybe in 50 - 100 years time. There is already too many empty trains.

dubhthach · 13-08-2012 9:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Tuam is only 40 minutes from Knock Airport, Knock caters for the West and North West. It may shock you to know that Galway isn't even half way up the coast of Ireland. People do actually live North of Galway city;).

Given the go-ahead of the M17/M18 Tuam will have motorway/dual carriageway to Shannon airport by 2016. Gort to Tuam is 58km, at motorway speed limit you will do it about 29minutes. This would put Tuam itself just over an hour from Shannon Airport. Don't know about you but I'd prefer driving for an hour on Motorway then 40minutes on the goat-track that is the N17 north of Tuam.

13-08-2012 11:51pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Given the go-ahead of the M17/M18 Tuam will have motorway/dual carriageway to Shannon airport by 2016. Gort to Tuam is 58km, at motorway speed limit you will do it about 29minutes. This would put Tuam itself just over an hour from Shannon Airport. Don't know about you but I'd prefer driving for an hour on Motorway then 40minutes on the goat-track that is the N17 north of Tuam.

At this stage I think everybody on Boards.ie knows your view on Knock Dubhthach and for some bizarre reason your love of all things Shannon, if knock airport was a mile away from you would not go there we get it,:rolleyes: Strange for somebody supposedly so knowledgeable on infrastructure to have such a grudge against a piece of self financing/supporting infrastructure. You obviously don't pay taxes or else are not concerned about how your taxes are spent.

You do realise im sure that the M18 will not be completed for 3 years(that's once its eventually started), the M17 to Sligo will likely follow within the next decade. But its becoming quite obvious you will have other reasons for people to not use Knock at that stage :rolleyes: Mod

If you wanted to continue this off topic conversation you should really have done it on the Infrastructure board.

yer man! · 15-08-2012 9:46am

Story today on the Limerick - Galway line, 16% patronage.....

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/3527/2012-33/Galway-Limerick-service-goes-off-the-rails

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 10:23am

yer man! wrote: »

Story today on the Limerick - Galway line, 16% patronage.....

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/3527/2012-33/Galway-Limerick-service-goes-off-the-rails[/QUOTE]

And Eamon O Cuiv explains exactly why:

However, Galway Deputy Eamon Ó Cuív blamed CIE for the poor
performance of the route, saying the success of certain elements of the route
could be extended if the transport company wanted the service to prosper.

“I remember getting leaflets dropped into my office about railway
services in Galway and the only one it didn’t mention was Galway to Limerick. In
all publicity about rail services, they never mention Galway-Limerick,” he
said.

“They are purposely treating it as an absolute second-class
citizen. It’s slow, it has the wrong times, they don’t have the frequency, they
are just providing a very poor service on it and then they wonder why the
passenger aren’t coming.”

The Fianna Fáil TD added that he believes there is a deliberate
attempt by CIE to stifle the service as they did not want to implement it in the
first place.

“I don’t think CIE were particularly enamoured with the line from
the first place, it was the Government that said to go ahead with the line. I
think that on a lot of these smaller lines, they’d rather not have the hassle.
You’d sometimes wonder are passengers on these lines seen by CIE as
being an unfortunate burden on them.”

gawker · 15-08-2012 10:25am

“At present, an open return ticket from Galway to Limerick is priced at €32.50 (€22 day return) and averages two hours in duration. The equivalent journey on Bus Eireann’s Express route takes 1hr and 25mins and can be booked online for €20.90, while the private Citylink service takes 1hr 20mins with a web booking price of €19.80.”

That piece of the article says it all. There comes a point with these constant price increases where it eventually puts enough people off that the increase leads to less income. I’m pretty sure Irish Rail have gotten to that point by now. What is their selling point for this route? They take longer to get from one city to the other so why are they charging more than the competition?

Saying they are tight for money isn’t enough, the market still has its price tolerance and ignoring that is just ridiculous…

westtip · 15-08-2012 10:36am

The Idyll Race wrote: »

yer man! wrote: »

Story today on the Limerick - Galway line, 16% patronage.....

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/3527/2012-33/Galway-Limerick-service-goes-off-the-rails[/QUOTE]

And Eamon O Cuiv explains exactly why:

eamon o'cuiv's explanation is the usual old stuff rattled out by WOT, interesting to note BTW that WOT did not comment in the story, no doubt a vigorous press release will come out in the next few days. Its good to see a local regional paper carrying this story and saying it as it is - no railway line will fail because of lack of on line ticketing, re marketing - I thought WOT said the demand for this would be so phenomenonal it would be a success from day one - its not as if the people living in the catchment area for this line don't know its there - if they aren't aware they haven't opened a newspaper or listened to the local and national media for the past 10 years. How many adverts do you see on TV for the London Tube. Use the tube today - "its a great way of getting into London" if a service is needed - people use it. Irish Rail actually do quite a lot of above line TV advertising to encourage people to travel by train, thats about as much as rail advertising will ever get. Regards blaming local advertising for the line - will that is just poppycock. Pricing maybe is a problem - but that is a problem for all intercity rail services which as this article points out simply cannot compete with buses on motorways.

The supporters of this line are blaming the operators - ten trains a day on what effectively is a branch line, the operators can't be blamed - they can't provide a train every 20 minutes it simply would be stupid. The service levels they get now are about as good as it is ever going to get.

Now we are told by IE that the only "successful" bits of the WRC are the bits that pre-existed before the intecity link was put in. Well what a surprise!

When are the supporters of this white elephant finally going to admit, this was going to be a flop from day one - why because there simply never was and never will be adequate demand for the service. End of.

yer man! · 15-08-2012 10:51am

westtip wrote: »

The Idyll Race wrote: »

eamon o'cuiv's explanation is the usual old stuff rattled out by WOT, interesting to note BTW that WOT did not comment in the story, no doubt a vigorous press release will come out in the next few days. Its good to see a local regional paper carrying this story and saying it as it is - no railway line will fail because of lack of on line ticketing, re marketing - I thought WOT said the demand for this would be so phenomenonal it would be a success from day one - its not as if the people living in the catchment area for this line don't know its there - if they aren't aware they haven't opened a newspaper or listened to the local and national media for the past 10 years. How many adverts do you see on TV for the London Tube. Use the tube today - "its a great way of getting into London" if a service is needed - people use it. Irish Rail actually do quite a lot of above line TV advertising to encourage people to travel by train, thats about as much as rail advertising will ever get. Regards blaming local advertising for the line - will that is just poppycock. Pricing maybe is a problem - but that is a problem for all intercity rail services which as this article points out simply cannot compete with buses on motorways.

The supporters of this line are blaming the operators - ten trains a day on what effectively is a branch line, the operators can't be blamed - they can't provide a train every 20 minutes it simply would be stupid. The service levels they get now are about as good as it is ever going to get.

Now we are told by IE that the only "successful" bits of the WRC are the bits that pre-existed before the intecity link was put in. Well what a surprise!

When are the supporters of this white elephant finally going to admit, this was going to be a flop from day one - why because there simply never was and never will be adequate demand for the service. End of.

I do agree with a lot of what you are saying however I disagree with the fact all intercity lines cannot compete with buses. For me (a student) the galway dublin train is €20 return, i'd take that over the bus, I much prefer the train, it's also about the same duration if not a little bit faster. Anyone I talk to about the limerick train they all say the same thing, 1.too slow and 2.too expensive. the feasibility study said it needed to be faster to prosper, that advice was not heeded obviously. I think the money could have been better spent dual tracking Galway - Portarlington as much as possible.... but sure, it's built, they need to try make it work and make it attractive at least.....

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 10:58am

westtip wrote: »

eamon o'cuiv's explanation is the usual old stuff rattled out by WOT, interesting to note BTW that WOT did not comment in the story, no doubt a vigorous press release will come out in the next few days. Its good to see a local regional paper carrying this story and saying it as it is - no railway line will fail because of lack of on line ticketing, re marketing - I thought WOT said the demand for this would be so phenomenonal it would be a success from day one - its not as if the people living in the catchment area for this line don't know its there - if they aren't aware they haven't opened a newspaper or listened to the local and national media for the past 10 years. How many adverts do you see on TV for the London Tube. Use the tube today - "its a great way of getting into London" if a service is needed - people use it. Irish Rail actually do quite a lot of above line TV advertising to encourage people to travel by train, thats about as much as rail advertising will ever get. Regards blaming local advertising for the line - will that is just poppycock. Pricing maybe is a problem - but that is a problem for all intercity rail services which as this article points out simply cannot compete with buses on motorways.

The supporters of this line are blaming the operators - ten trains a day on what effectively is a branch line, the operators can't be blamed - they can't provide a train every 20 minutes it simply would be stupid. The service levels they get now are about as good as it is ever going to get.

Now we are told by IE that the only "successful" bits of the WRC are the bits that pre-existed before the intecity link was put in. Well what a surprise!

When are the supporters of this white elephant finally going to admit, this was going to be a flop from day one - why because there simply never was and never will be adequate demand for the service. End of.

Actually, the Ennis - Athenry section, along with Limerick- Ballybrophy and Junction - Waterford should be closed or at best mothballed. It would prove the huge disconnect between what gets voted for and actual usage of the railway. As I pointed out in another thread, when Oliver Doyle of Irish Rail has a dig at the Limerick Galway service in the IRRS journal, it is blindingly obvious that CIE don't want this service and they are not shy at telling the official supporters' club that. O Cuiv is merely pointing out the obvious.

Retaining any railway service in the present climate has to be a case of "use it or lose it".

corktina · 15-08-2012 11:11am

typical IE water-muddying, saying how the Athenry to Galway and Ennis to Limerick bits are doing... THEY WERE ALREADY THERE!

Very few passengers, (and almost none of them fare-paying) travel the re-opened section, what a scandalous waste of money (I might have said that before...)

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 11:20am

corktina wrote: »

typical IE water-muddying, saying how the Athenry to Galway and Ennis to Limerick bits are doing... THEY WERE ALREADY THERE!

Very few passengers, (and almost none of them fare-paying) travel the re-opened section, what a scandalous waste of money (I might have said that before...)

The most scandalous waste of money has been the M3, which cost far in excess of Ennis - Athenry in rewarding landowners along the route, and continues to cost the taxpayer money in paying the operator the tolls that they do not recover from the non-existent users.

However the residents of Gort etc must have it impressed on them that if they do not use the railway it will close.

rainbowdash · 15-08-2012 11:25am

corktina wrote: »

typical IE water-muddying, saying how the Athenry to Galway and Ennis to Limerick bits are doing... THEY WERE ALREADY THERE!

Very few passengers, (and almost none of them fare-paying) travel the re-opened section, what a scandalous waste of money (I might have said that before...)

Ennis - Limerick was NOT already there, there was no train between Ennis and Limerick for years. Its just as water-muddying to say Ennis-Limerick was always there, when it wasn't.

As for Athenry-Galway well it was there but I assume the frequencies have increased as a result of extra trains, which would give commuters more options, my question is - has Athenry-Galway seen increased loadings in the last few years? (Or even if loadings stayed the same that would be a success since most other lines have seen a reduction in services)

In the grand scheme of things running a train through from Galway to Limerick probably doesn't cost a huge amount more than Ennis-Limerick, Athenry-Galway and turning around all the time.

Having said that €20 return Limerick-Galway seems to be the correct price, not €32.50.

Thatsfootball · 15-08-2012 11:32am

Really, the market isn't there as much for the WRC as times gone by. However a greenway would be developed at a much cheaper rate and would certainly be a bigger tourist attraction.
Knock airport won't close, it's doing very well as it is. The place is nearly or fully self sufficient unlike Shannon which had to be "bailed out" as such. Both airports can succeed, but Knock needs good roads leading from the Galway side of things and indeed from all sides!

Sponge Bob · 15-08-2012 11:32am

Then there is this warm tribute to IEs competence.

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/3527/2012-33/Galway-Limerick-service-goes-off-the-rails%5B/QUOTE

And, despite the Galway-Limerick rail route being in operation for over two years, online booking is still not available for the service, with a spokesperson for Irish Rail confirming that it would be 2013 before this facility will be available.

6 Years to upgrade their website to permit online booking. Genius that.

I see Barry Kenny insisted he was not named in the article.

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 11:38am

Thatsfootball wrote: »

Really, the market isn't there as much for the WRC as times gone by. However a greenway would be developed at a much cheaper rate and would certainly be a bigger tourist attraction.
Knock airport won't close, it's doing very well as it is. The place is nearly or fully self sufficient unlike Shannon which had to be "bailed out" as such. Both airports can succeed, but Knock needs good roads leading from the Galway side of things and indeed from all sides!

Don't see any calls for a greenway on the M3.

Will the new motorways in the west be tolled?

Are there landowners still making a fortune claiming development value over ag value for the lands along the M17/M18?

After all, making it impossible for passengers to use the railways will create extra demand on the new motorways, won't it.

Follow the money. It never fails.

westtip · 15-08-2012 11:50am

The Idyll Race wrote: »

The most scandalous waste of money has been the M3, which cost far in excess of Ennis - Athenry in rewarding landowners along the route, and continues to cost the taxpayer money in paying the operator the tolls that they do not recover from the non-existent users.

However the residents of Gort etc must have it impressed on them that if they do not use the railway it will close.

There were a lot of vanity projects in the CT years and yes the M3 was one of them - this thread is about the WRC vanity project, so lets not get into another Shannon/Knock diversion.

Anyway I pulled out another little quote from Eamon O'cuiv:

Eamon O’Cuiv: In a speech at a conference about the Western Rail Corridor in May 2009. Mr O’Cuiv when Minister for Community and Gaeltacht affairs said:

“should we use the section of the railway line north of Claremorris as a walkway and cycleway while it is not open as railway?” - A Good question Mr O’Cuiv and why not?

I don't think West on Track put this speech on their website - I know they didn't like it - I spoke to E O'C on the day - he said to me privately it was about the only option available - so here we are 3 and 3 months later...

Oh and try this one for great quotes about the WRC

Noel Dempsey – Minister of Transport. In a Speech at the opening of phase one (Ennis-Athenry) of the Western Rail Corridor in March 2011:

“However, we all have to face the reality that the current funding environment is very difficult and it will not be possible to progress all the projects in Transport 21 in accordance with the ambitious timescale envisioned at its launch.”

“I cannot overstate the critical importance of local support for Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor in promoting the development of further phases of the Corridor. Now that the dream of reopening Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor has been realised, the challenge is to ensure its success.”?

And if you want a real laugh - you can find this on the WOT website

West on Track July 20th 2009 The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational. Classic quote from West on Track overstating the case.

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 12:02pm

westtip wrote: »

There were a lot of vanity projects in the CT years and yes the M3 was one of them - this thread is about the WRC vanity project, so lets not get into another Shannon/Knock diversion.

Anyway I pulled out another little quote from Eamon O'cuiv:

I don't think West on Track put this speech on their website - I know they didn't like it - I spoke to E O'C on the day - he said to me privately it was about the only option available - so here we are 3 and 3 months later...

A good point re Claremorris - Collooney. I'll buy a hat and eat it if it is ever reused for rail services. Definitely a greenway for that.

After reading most (impossible to read all of it) of this thread, and where I fundamentally differ with the majority here, is that I believe that the section that should have been rebuilt was Athenry - Tuam, and rebuilt properly, not the half arsed job Irish Rail grudgingly did on Ennis - Athenry.

Crucially, the locals in Tuam wanted the railway more than the indifference of Gort and the other two villages that don't seem to provide any traffic on the time I travelled on the line.

15-08-2012 12:11pm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

A good point re Claremorris - Collooney. I'll buy a hat and eat it if it is ever reused for rail services. Definitely a greenway for that.

The greenway in this area would be a better investment for local jobs and government, so IE will probaby put trains on it.:( The region should be looking for decent roads before contemplating spending further money on rail.

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 12:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The greenway in this area would be a better investment for local jobs and government, so IE will probaby put trains on it.:(

No they won't. Hyperbolic nonsense.

westtip · 15-08-2012 2:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The greenway in this area would be a better investment for local jobs and government, so IE will probaby put trains on it.:( The region should be looking for decent roads before contemplating spending further money on rail.

MM its not just about IE - who incidentally want the northern branch line like a hole in the head; its about the pedantry that still exists in the county councils and more to the point a group of councillors sponsored by west on track called the Western Inter county Railway committee. Until their "moral authority" in which they claim to speak for the majority in the west is challenged by more modern thinking councillors in Sligo, Mayo, Galway and Roscommon county chambers - there will be an indifference from central government to get this greenway project off the ground. The continuous clutching at the holy grail of west on track will continue to be county council policy until the group I mentioned are challenged and removed from influence.

The Idyll Race wrote: »

I fundamentally differ with the majority here, is that I believe that the section that should have been rebuilt was Athenry - Tuam, and rebuilt properly, not the half arsed job Irish Rail grudgingly did on Ennis - Athenry.
.

Idyll Race: the McCann report of 2005 was the blueprint for the WRC, and ennis/Athenry was always pencilled in as "phase one" because it created an intercity link. You might be right about tuam athenry, but that did not create an intercity route but a northern branch line. Blaming IE is not really the full picture, the campaign group WOT always campaigned for the "re-opening of the old alignment" in many respects it is the old C19 alignment that is the problem - that is a problem IE inherited and was foisted on them by the campaign group. the alignment north of Claremorris is BTW a complete joke to even consider re-opening as a rail line. To many crossings, to many bends inclines oh .... and it goes through too many back gardens, front gardens and across private residential driveways and in charlestown petrol stations - thanks to the diligence of the planning departments in sligo and mayo county councils, who according to their county plans are committed to the re-opening of the WRC but failed to tell their planning departments!!!

pigtown · 15-08-2012 3:26pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

Ennis - Limerick was NOT already there, there was no train between Ennis and Limerick for years. Its just as water-muddying to say Ennis-Limerick was always there, when it wasn't.

I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of sources but according to it:

Passenger services on this section ceased in 1976 but were re-introduced in 1988 as far as Ennis and were increased progressively until a full six-weekday service was begun in 1994 which also had a limited Sunday service. A further expansion to eight services per weekday was begin in 2003 with the timetable further reorganised in March 2010 to incorporate the newly reopened track north of Ennis and services between Limerick and Galway.

So don't go claiming that the success of the Limerick-Ennis service has anything to do with the WRC.

rainbowdash · 15-08-2012 4:02pm

pigtown wrote: »

I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of sources but according to it:

Passenger services on this section ceased in 1976 but were re-introduced in 1988 as far as Ennis and were increased progressively until a full six-weekday service was begun in 1994 which also had a limited Sunday service. A further expansion to eight services per weekday was begin in 2003 with the timetable further reorganised in March 2010 to incorporate the newly reopened track north of Ennis and services between Limerick and Galway.

So don't go claiming that the success of the Limerick-Ennis service has anything to do with the WRC.

According to the same Wikipedia, Limerick - Ennis is part of the WRC. I don't think too many dispute that. As per your quote above there was no service at all for 12 years between Ennis-Limerick, and until 1994 I think it was a few trains a week and then until 2003 I think it was 3 trains per day on a crumbling old line.

Of course they should have reopened Ennis-Athenry in a similar fashion, as the line was functioning and intact, instead they spent millions on stations that nobody uses and achieved line speeds that are seemingly lower than the 1960's!

pigtown · 15-08-2012 9:44pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

According to the same Wikipedia, Limerick - Ennis is part of the WRC. I don't think too many dispute that. As per your quote above there was no service at all for 12 years between Ennis-Limerick, and until 1994 I think it was a few trains a week and then until 2003 I think it was 3 trains per day on a crumbling old line.

Of course they should have reopened Ennis-Athenry in a similar fashion, as the line was functioning and intact, instead they spent millions on stations that nobody uses and achieved line speeds that are seemingly lower than the 1960's!

I'm not disputing that the Limerick-Ennis line wasn't always there. It just looked from your post that you were somehow linking its success to the Ennis-Athenry section. Maybe I got that wrong.

I'm not so sure about your suggestion that the Ennis-Athenry section should have been opened in a similar fashion. Sure they added 3 new stations but in reality these add at most 10 minutes to the 2 hour journey. The biggest problems with the line are curves, gradients and level crossings. These all need to be dealt with before this line can be a success.

black47 · 15-08-2012 10:22pm

Wonder if IE ever considered trying to provide direct services from Galway to Cork on the one train without changing at limerick and limerick junction. Is the track/signalling infastructure there to do this? Would this have made the line more viable?

Our man in Havana · 15-08-2012 10:47pm

It is not possible, with the track layouts in both Limerick and LJ.

flyingsnail · 15-08-2012 10:59pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is not possible, with the track layouts in both Limerick and LJ.

It is not possible to run Galway to Limerick Junction without changing ends at limerick but it is possible to run direct to Cork from Limerick via platform 1 at Limerick junction.

corktina · 15-08-2012 11:15pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

Ennis - Limerick was NOT already there, there was no train between Ennis and Limerick for years. Its just as water-muddying to say Ennis-Limerick was always there, when it wasn't.

.

rubbish...ennis to Limerick was up and running for several years (quite sucessfully) before 106 MILLION plus subsidies of several million a year was wasted on re-opening the ennis to AThenry section. I didnt say ALWAYS there, you did...

Sponge Bob · 16-08-2012 1:12am

Originally the Ennis - Limerick section and the Athenry - Tuam section were built as RAILWAY.

Ennis - Athenry and Tuam - Collooney were built as LIGHT RAILWAY some 20 years afterwards, completely different build standard.

All of course over 120 years ago.

dowlingm · 16-08-2012 3:16am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

6 Years to upgrade their website to permit online booking. Genius that. I see Barry Kenny insisted he was not named in the article.

I assumed it was a problem like Carrick-on-Shannon - no printer - rather than a website issue.

rainbowdash · 16-08-2012 3:43pm

corktina wrote: »

rubbish...ennis to Limerick was up and running for several years (quite sucessfully) before 106 MILLION plus subsidies of several million a year was wasted on re-opening the ennis to AThenry section. I didnt say ALWAYS there, you did...

Ennis - Limerick had to be completely rebuilt too, presumably at a similar cost per mile, but it was done in dribs and drabs rather than a specific "capital" project which the politicians seem to prefer.

It still needs a subsidy to exist, probably not a lot less than Ennis-Athenry given the fixed cost of both stations and manning them is already there.

Anyway, how about 4 express trains Limerick-Galway per day, stopping at Atherny and Ennis only, along with a few crawler trains o serve the ghost stations, price Limerick - Galway €20 return and then see if there is interest.

From what I can see high fares is half the problem.

highlydebased · 17-08-2012 10:12am

In the Leader...

By Nick Rabbitts
Published on Thursday 16 August 2012 14:00

AN average of only 95 passengers a day used the Limerick to Galway train last year, leading to calls for it to be closed down.

Figures released this week show that in 2011, just 35,000 people used the long-awaited train service.

Only 16% of the available seats on board each train serving this part of the Western Rail Corridor have been taken, figures released by Irish Rail have shown.

The route - opened in 2010 with great fanfare by then Transport Minister Noel Dempsey - cost €106.5m to construct.

Now, a member of that government Willie O’Dea says it is time to look at the future of the six-times-a-day service which also serves Ennis, Gort, Sixmilebridge and Athenry.

The rail line opened following a wide-scale campaign by the West on Track group.

However, because the train cannot exceed a certain speed - and calls at intermediate stops along the way - it has proven quicker to travel by road to Galway.

The train takes two and a quarter hours, while a road trip can take a little over an hour.

Bus travel is also cheaper than train travel, which is thought to have also contributed to the low train ridership.

Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion.

“We are experiencing a calamitous recession which has reduced demand on all travel modes and we will continue to promote the service and seek to grow the business,” he said.

But Mr O’Dea said the route has not been properly advertised.

He admitted he was unaware of the service when two weeks ago, when a constituent asked if he was attending the Galway races.

“It did not enter my consciousness,” he said.

He said the low bus fare in comparison to the train also raises questions.

“I think we need to talk to the people behind it to try if it can be made a success. But if it cannot be made a success, we have to seriously look at closing it down because it will be an unviable service. This is a waste of public money which we do not have,” he told the Limerick Leader this Wednesday.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/just-95-passengers-a-day-on-limerick-galway-train-1-4170437

dowlingm · 17-08-2012 1:51pm

“It did not enter my consciousness,” (O'Dea) said.

Sure he was unconscious for years as a Minister.

corktina · 17-08-2012 2:15pm

fudging the3 issue yet again!

"Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion"

106 million euro in re-building costs and several miilion a year in losses....let no-one ever forget that this is what the Ennis to Athenry section cost, and that services fromLimerick to Ennis and Galway to Athenry were already there and no part of that cost quoted referes to those sections

KENNY...stop defending the indefensible!

The Idyll Race · 17-08-2012 3:49pm

corktina wrote: »

fudging the3 issue yet again!

"Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion"

106 million euro in re-building costs and several miilion a year in losses....let no-one ever forget that this is what the Ennis to Athenry section cost, and that services fromLimerick to Ennis and Galway to Athenry were already there and no part of that cost quoted referes to those sections

KENNY...stop defending the indefensible!

Question, why does rail waste push far more buttons in this country than road waste, which has been legion? Just curious.

ardmacha · 17-08-2012 3:51pm

Question, why does rail waste push far more buttons in this country than road waste, which has been legion? Just curious.

Because most people never go on a train?

The Idyll Race · 17-08-2012 3:56pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Because most people never go on a train?

The tone is pretty harsh on this thread, you would think money was been taken from the mouths of those with an interest in the construction of roads.

corktina · 18-08-2012 8:03am

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Question, why does rail waste push far more buttons in this country than road waste, which has been legion? Just curious.

what road waste? show me a new road with hardly any users and costing a fortune in losses every year and which is slower than its rivals...

markpb · 18-08-2012 8:15am

corktina wrote: »

what road waste? show me a new road with hardly any users and costing a fortune in losses every year and which is slower than its rivals...

The M3 meets two of your three criteria.

flyingsnail · 18-08-2012 9:41am

markpb wrote: »

The M3 meets two of your three criteria.

Same with the Limerick tunnel.

The Idyll Race · 18-08-2012 10:40am

flyingsnail wrote: »

Same with the Limerick tunnel.

Yes. Funny that.

Does Freedom of Information give us the names and amounts paid for CPOs on Motorway building? I understand that at least one name would make for interesting reading.

Ker-ching!

rainbowdash · 18-08-2012 10:59am

corktina wrote: »

fudging the3 issue yet again!

"Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion"

106 million euro in re-building costs and several miilion a year in losses....let no-one ever forget that this is what the Ennis to Athenry section cost, and that services fromLimerick to Ennis and Galway to Athenry were already there and no part of that cost quoted referes to those sections

KENNY...stop defending the indefensible!

The true cost is nothing like €106m. That is just the budget, a lot of that would have been recouped in taxes on the wages of the people working on the track, materials bought and hired from quarries, tool shops etc., and the tax on the wages of the people working for thm etc. etc.. Then the wages are spent in shops, more vat, commercial rates paid etc. Farmers were paid for bits of land and closing access crossings etc., this money would hav gone back around the economy.

How much was spent on materials for the rebuild and how much of this was imported - that would give a better picture of the true cost.

The same way as closing it would only yield marginal savings, as the people working on the track are paying income tax, vat in shop purchases, and if they went on the dole they would cost the government social welfare anyway.

The real operating cost is the cost of the diesel, gradual depreciation of track and rolling stock etc., again the bottom line savings will be marginal.

corktina · 18-08-2012 11:04am

rainbowdash wrote: »

The true cost is nothing like €106m. That is just the budget, a lot of that would have been recouped in taxes on the wages of the people working on the track, materials bought and hired from quarries, tool shops etc., and the tax on the wages of the people working for thm etc. etc.. Then the wages are spent in shops, more vat, commercial rates paid etc. Farmers were paid for bits of land and closing access crossings etc., this money would hav gone back around the economy.

How much was spent on materials for the rebuild and how much of this was imported - that would give a better picture of the true cost.

The same way as closing it would only yield marginal savings, as the people working on the track are paying income tax, vat in shop purchases, and if they went on the dole they would cost the government social welfare anyway.

The real operating cost is the cost of the diesel, gradual depreciation of track and rolling stock etc., again the bottom line savings will be marginal.

is that you Barry?

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Comments