Opinion on billionaires.

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 9:45pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

its like saying the people who work in a factory bottling antibiotics today deserve as much credit as alexander fleming , the inventor of penicilin

They do.
Could you have penicillin without key workers?

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 9:46pm

If you are going to do it ..do it soros style.

mick087 · 27-08-2020 9:47pm

Cyrus wrote: »

That’s a bit simplistic

The key staff will get options and make a lot of money but the warehouse workers aren’t creating the wealth, it’s the concept that creates the wealth . The majority of the workers are easily and quickly replaceable .

All staff are key staff.

Without the warehouse staff who would work in the warehouse.
The majority of the workers are easily and quickly replaceable because some employers are allowed to get away with this.

Greyfox · 27-08-2020 9:48pm

Cyrus wrote: »

That’s a bit simplistic

The key staff will get options and make a lot of money but the warehouse workers aren’t creating the wealth, it’s the concept that creates the wealth . The majority of the workers are easily and quickly replaceable .

That's the way of the world but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. The low paid workers that are there are still part of the wealth creation.

IAMAMORON · 27-08-2020 9:52pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That is the cost of a breakfast for the majority of billionaires anyway with waiters and so on on board that yacht of course lol.

Anyway who would want to associate with these moneyed morons anyway.

There is only so much money that you can spend, says I looking at boiler replacement (needed) a new kitchen after twenty years (needed) and so on.

Can pay for everything without borrowing, so fk the billionaires now. LOL

The Simple enough life is good enough for me.

Your spot on Spanish. Fair play. Like making toast on a stick over a turf fire.

These moneyed morons are not flutes however. They know what side they want their toast buttered on for starters. Personnel chefs, yacht pilots, overpriced dolly birds, it all adds up.

I find the yachts with the chopper pads are really just taking the piss. Who needs a yacht and a chopper? Nonsense.

I would rather hitchhike to the Highland Games with Gemma Hayes, she could sing for our supper.

mick087 · 27-08-2020 9:54pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

thats a pure political statement

the owner created the company , without him , the staff would likely be working in some other job

im not saying amazon employees are not underpaid , they probably are but they dont and didnt create the wealth

its like saying the people who work in a factory bottling antibiotics today deserve as much credit as alexander fleming , the inventor of penicilin

Without the staff the employer is likey to have no business.

Yes staff do create the wealth and the owner then controls the wealth. No staff no wealth.

All people in no matter what job they do should surely be as valued as anyone else in any other job.

Alexander Fleming does deserve the recognition for what he brought to mankind.

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 9:56pm

mick087 wrote: »

All staff are key staff.

Not true. Some jobs are kind of useless.

My Dad's first job was to push the button for people on a lift.

893bet · 27-08-2020 9:59pm

mick087 wrote: »

All staff are key staff.

No. No they are not.

If you are unable to see the point being made then it is probably not worth writing it in crayon for you.

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 10:00pm

They live on another planet and rarely have contact with normal humans. Its why they seem so odd. They don't seem to have much personality. I guess you don't need one if you are rich. They seem boring and odd. Bit awkward.

We can't imagine how the 10% live. Its another world. It's why Paris Hilton seems so alien to us. We kind of laugh at them ....but really they are just different and probably normal for where they come from.

Cultural diffs and shocks etc.

AllForIt · 27-08-2020 10:01pm

I think Bill Gates is a really good guy. The foundation he set up to help combat disease in Africa is something he had no obligation to do.

I'm utterly applaud by the amount of people, usually stereotypical socialists that talk about him as if he were pure scum.

He would get less criticism he never engaged in philanthropic work at all. Go figure, as the Americans say.

FixitFelix · 27-08-2020 10:02pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They live on another planet and rarely have contact with normal humans. Its why they seem so odd. They don't seem to have much personality. I guess you don't need one if you are rich. They seem boring and odd. Bit awkward.

Zuckerberg being the posterboy for odd billionaires

Vestiapx · 27-08-2020 10:02pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

. Private jets are drug mules anyway, generally. But why? if you don't need the money?

Interesting you think they have their stash on the jet and use in it in a type of international waters idea?

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 10:04pm

FixitFelix wrote: »

Zuckerberg being the posterboy for odd billionaires

Indeed. Nods in working class.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2020 10:04pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Your spot on Spanish. Fair play. Like making toast on a stick over a turf fire.

These moneyed morons are not flutes however. They know what side they want their toast buttered on for starters. Personnel chefs, yacht pilots, overpriced dolly birds, it all adds up.

I find the yachts with the chopper pads are really just taking the piss. Who needs a yacht and a chopper? Nonsense.

I would rather hitchhike to the Highland Games with Gemma Hayes, she could sing for our supper.

Two things, 1. there will be no toast on a stick over a turf fire, we don't have a turf fire.

2. I avoid them like the plague, well reading about them, because even though they have gazillions, they will never have the same approach to life that I have.

And I doubt they will care about me, so I don't care about them AT ALL!

mick087 · 27-08-2020 10:05pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Not true. Some jobs are kind of useless.

My Dad's first job was to push the button for people on a lift.

No one should be made to feel useless

Everyone would have diferent skills.

mick087 · 27-08-2020 10:07pm

893bet wrote: »

No. No they are not.

If you are unable to see the point being made then it is probably not worth writing it in crayon for you.

Does that comment make you feel better now?

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 10:09pm

mick087 wrote: »

No one should be made to feel useless

Everyone would have diferent skills.

Don't feel sorry for my father he went through uni on that job! Feel sorry for the daft idiot with too much money he managed to convince to hire him to do such a stupid job! :pac:

It WAS a completely useless job.

Do you know they used to have people ..ACTUAL people to take the pips out of strawberry jam sometimes to export it to the states. I mean if you didn't need the money ...what waste of time.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2020 10:10pm

mick087 wrote: »

No one should be made to feel useless

Everyone would have diferent skills.

Well that is so true, but money talks and Bullsht walks.

Sadly.

But honestly and truly I have no envy of the Billionaires out there. I live my life kinda ok, not perfect but have more than enough to live on and am happy out with that.

893bet · 27-08-2020 10:10pm

mick087 wrote: »

Does that comment make you feel better now?

I feel the same. I don’t let peasants opinions impact my mood.

flazio · 27-08-2020 10:13pm

As people say, it's not the same being a billionaire and being worth a billion.
If somehow tomorrow I suddenly owned The Empire State Building then technically I'd be a billionaire because that building might be worth $1 billion.(Probably isn't but work with my point here) If I had no tenets in the building paying me rent then the only way I get that billion into my account would be to sell the building. I'd actually be penniless and that building would just be a white elephant to me.
There's a distinct difference between working hard and working smart, and to become a billionaire you have to work hard and smart.
Now working smart might not always be by ethical means, there may well be exploitation and rule bending along the way.
It is a core value of humanity to offer generous reward for excelling in hard and smart work. In the western world that reward is valued in money. It's the driving force for betterment of ourselves and for the most part humanity tends to benefit from it. Nobody would push themselves on a masters degree if the job at the end paid the same as the job they have now, and it's those masters and doctorate graduates that we need to improve mankind.
Now I know that quite a few billionaires didn't even finish conventional education, but doesn't that just mean they had to work harder?
What's the just reward then? You could well say that others did the hard work, but how do you reward those that did the smart work?

IAMAMORON · 27-08-2020 10:13pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Two things, 1. there will be no toast on a stick over a turf fire, we don't have a turf fire.

Get it on your bucket list, life is too short to be not having a turf fire.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

2. I avoid them like the plague, well reading about them, because even though they have gazillions, they will never have the same approach to life that I have.

And I doubt they will care about me, so I don't care about them AT ALL!

Would you not have a quick glance over the Hello magazine in the Dentist's waiting room?

mick087 · 27-08-2020 10:14pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well that is so true, but money talks and Bullsht walks.

Sadly.

But honestly and truly I have no envy of the Billionaires out there. I live my life kinda ok, not perfect but have more than enough to live on and am happy out with that.

Yes money does talk your right

But at some point the rich and poor divide will be gone.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2020 10:14pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I think Bill Gates is a really good guy. The foundation he set up to help combat disease in Africa is something he had no obligation to do.

I'm utterly applaud by the amount of people, usually stereotypical socialists that talk about him as if he were pure scum.

He would get less criticism he never engaged in philanthropic work at all. Go figure, as the Americans say.

Not dissing him, but our little country is still giving 750 million pa to Foreign Aid despite our own troubles.

So that means that Billions have been donated to Africa, but they still want to come to Ireland. Hello Bill what's the story there?

ILoveYourVibes · 27-08-2020 10:16pm

893bet wrote: »

I feel the same. I don’t let peasants opinions impact my mood.

You just did.

You let yourself get snarky.

FixitFelix · 27-08-2020 10:18pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I think Bill Gates is a really good guy. The foundation he set up to help combat disease in Africa is something he had no obligation to do.

I'm utterly applaud by the amount of people, usually stereotypical socialists that talk about him as if he were pure scum.

He would get less criticism he never engaged in philanthropic work at all. Go figure, as the Americans say.

Jump over to the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theories forum and they have a totally different view of bill gates and his foundation

bnt · 27-08-2020 10:18pm

One important point about billionaires like Bezos and Musk: the bulk of their wealth exists on paper, in the form of company shares. There are limits on how much of it they can access, since shareholders watch them like hawks for signs, so selling a lot of shares would be seen as a vote of no confidence in the company. Those limits are high enough to not matter a whole lot in practice e.g. Bezos has made $billions in cash from share sales, in addition to his salaries. But I don’t know if it’s correct to say he “has” all that wealth if he can’t access it all at will.

893bet · 27-08-2020 10:20pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You just did.

You let yourself get snarky.

No.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2020 10:21pm

mick087 wrote: »

Yes money does talk your right

But at some point the rich and poor divide will be gone.

How come? I doubt it will be from our largesse or Bill Gates Foundation either. Sorry now.

There seems to be no end to this Africa thing. But many of them seem to have money to come here anyway. Nigerians. Yes, let us call a spade a shovel.

So what do we do?

AllForIt · 27-08-2020 10:27pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Not dissing him, but our little country is still giving 750 million pa to Foreign Aid despite our own troubles.

So that means that Billions have been donated to Africa, but they still want to come to Ireland. Hello Bill what's the story there?

Neither have an obligation to do so though.

We could get way off topic here talking about foreign aid, especially contentious these days due to BLM movement saying we owe Africans reparations.

I'm sticking to my main point, that Gates has no obligation to do his philanthropic work. I mean for Gods sake, Gates is responsible in part for providing inexpensive computes, in comparison to Apple for example. What philanthropic work does Apple do. None I've heard of.

Gregor Samsa · 27-08-2020 10:28pm

bnt wrote: »

One important point about billionaires like Bezos and Musk: the bulk of their wealth exists on paper, in the form of company shares. [...] But I don’t know if it’s correct to say he “has” all that wealth if he can’t access it all at will.

They have it. It’s an asset on their balance sheet, same as if you owned a few shares yourself. Even if they can’t liquidate it all at once for various procedural reasons, they can (and do) use it as collateral for finance. Go ask Bezos for a million worth of Amazon shares, explaining that they’re really worthless to him as he can’t liquidate all his stock at once, and see if he gives it to you.

tom1ie · 27-08-2020 10:31pm

Brittany Large Bartender wrote: »

Not much to say, other than they should be paying real, proper taxes, and have a moral duty not to abuse tax efficency schemes including inheritance tax evasion using trust funds.

- The world’s 2,153 billionaires have more wealth than the 4,600,000,000 people who make up 60% of the planet’s population.
- The 22 richest men in the world have more wealth than all the women in Africa (600m, set to double by 2050).
- Getting the richest 1% to pay just 0.5 percent extra tax on their wealth over the next 10 years would equal the investment needed to create 117 million jobs in sectors such as elderly and childcare, education and health.

If they don't pay more, and when the robots take all the jobs, no doubt they'll likely have a social rebellion on their hands, with the globe heading for 10bn folks.

Is this based on cash at the billionaires disposal?
I wonder how rich these billionaires are when you deduct debt and when you factor in how much of the wealth is tied to the stock market, where if they tried to liquidate their stocks it would cause those stocks to plummet in value.
Is there a list of cash rich billionaires?

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2020 10:35pm

Bill Gates needs to look at how the countries he is philanthropic about actually work.

27-08-2020 10:44pm

Brittany Large Bartender wrote: »

In 2018, billionaires paid a smaller portion of their income in taxes than average (working class) Americans. That's the first time that has happened in history.
https://www.businessinsider.com/american-billionaires-paid-less-taxes-than-working-class-wealth-gap-2019-10?r=US&IR=T

He still paid $6,938,744. Which reflects what I wrote, in that they pay more than most individuals. Sure, the other individuals are on a higher tax rate, but the returns on the billionaires is higher even with the lower tax. Add in what I said about lifestyles and the cost of those lifestyles, and there's even more tax being paid on luxuries, all of which goes into the economy.

Nah. I don't feel the need to tax them higher just because they have more money. Their tax returns already funnel into the economy, which is a benefit. Could they pay more? definitely, but I'm not particularly bothered by them paying lower, as long as the actual intake is quite a bit higher than the average joe.

Mad_maxx · 27-08-2020 10:46pm

mick087 wrote: »

All staff are key staff.

Without the warehouse staff who would work in the warehouse.
The majority of the workers are easily and quickly replaceable because some employers are allowed to get away with this.

more politics

Mad_maxx · 27-08-2020 10:47pm

mick087 wrote: »

Without the staff the employer is likey to have no business.

Yes staff do create the wealth and the owner then controls the wealth. No staff no wealth.

All people in no matter what job they do should surely be as valued as anyone else in any other job.

Alexander Fleming does deserve the recognition for what he brought to mankind.

they are valued , they are paid ( perhaps they do deserve more pay but thats different )

4068ac1elhodqr · 27-08-2020 10:50pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Is this based on cash at the billionaires disposal?
I wonder how rich these billionaires are when you deduct debt and when you factor in how much of the wealth is tied to the stock market, where if they tried to liquidate their stocks it would cause those stocks to plummet in value.
Is there a list of cash rich billionaires?

Perhaps read the article itself, those figures were taken from:
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/worlds-billionaires-have-more-wealth-46-billion-people
Consider also the below-average working class tax paid (using fiscal accounting tools and techniques).

The vast majority of them made real serious gains during the COVID thingy, while the average Joe/Jane (also with zero stocks) certainly did not.

Also they can liquidate their ever-growing stocks in a gradual manner if they need a new superyacht or something to toy about in for a season.
Stock holdings can also be used as leverage for a new mansion or five, most tech stocks are highly rated and better security than a 9-5 jobber.

mick087 · 27-08-2020 10:52pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

they are valued , they are paid ( perhaps they do deserve more pay but thats different )

Yes some are very good employers.
In one company you could have some that are treated well paid bonus etc and within the same comapny some paid a low wage and not treated in a good way.

At the moment we live in a socitey that wants and encourages this. But is it right? Thats up to each person to decide.

4068ac1elhodqr · 27-08-2020 10:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

He still paid [$xxx,xxx,xxx] Which reflects what I wrote, in that they pay more than most individuals.

Issue you are overlooking, is that it's a lower percent '% 'than most individuals, regardless of whatever $xxx,xxx,xxx was paid. There is a duty to 'pay a fair share' (or percent).

That's even before considering the various accounting tools and schemes at their disposal.

mick087 · 27-08-2020 10:54pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

more politics

In my defence part of the question was "Global Inequality is a big problem"
Politics would be involved in that.

Greyfox · 27-08-2020 10:56pm

flazio wrote: »

Nobody would push themselves on a masters degree if the job at the end paid the same as the job they have now, and it's those masters and doctorate graduates that we need to improve mankind

Although some rich people do improve mankind the truth is most wealthy people are not improving mankind.

27-08-2020 11:17pm

Brittany Large Bartender wrote: »

Issue you are overlooking, is that it's a lower percent '% 'than most individuals, regardless of whatever $xxx,xxx,xxx was paid. There is a duty to 'pay a fair share' (or percent).

That's even before considering the various accounting tools and schemes at their disposal.

I'm not overlooking it.. I said as much in my post. It still doesn't bother me.

flazio · 28-08-2020 7:52am

Greyfox wrote: »

Although some rich people do improve mankind the truth is most wealthy people are not improving mankind.

Next point I made acknowledged that not all billionaires came through the higher education system so indeed they tend to be not the nicest.
The point I was trying to make was that the pursuit of riches is one of the key driving forces for "the cream" to get the highest qualification they are capable of. Billionaire is an extreme of that. If you take away the riches from the top jobs then you take away the incentive to strive to achieve your academic best. And we need the academic best.

Wanderer78 · 28-08-2020 7:59am

flazio wrote:

Next point I made acknowledged that not all billionaires came through the higher education system so indeed they tend to be not the nicest. The point I was trying to make was that the pursuit of riches is one of the key driving forces for "the cream" to get the highest qualification they are capable of. Billionaire is an extreme of that. If you take away the riches from the top jobs then you take away the incentive to strive to achieve your academic best. And we need the academic best.

Most wealthy have many things in their favour, particularly politically, we have managed to convince ourselves that continually rising asset prices, automatically means everyone wins, including the lower classes (rising tide!), but this isn't exactly true, as this tide has a tendency to become a tsunami at times, wrecking the lives of many lower classes

Akrasia · 28-08-2020 8:12am

IAMAMORON wrote: »

They work hard, most of the really rich ones are obsessive about getting shít done.

Good luck to them.

I would rather be born rich and enjoy it than have to work for it. Those dudes don't unwind, when Musk finished college he worked 7 days a week. He lived (literally) in his office with his brother. They are workaholics.

Do they work a thousand times harder than a self made millionaire?

A million times harder than a working class father/mother who struggles to maintain a thousand euros in their savings account?

The biggest problem with billionaires is not that I envy their wealth and luxurious existence, it’s the political influence they buy with their money that distorts legal and regulatory frameworks at the expense of everyone else.

The tax system should prevent billionaires from existing. But it’s a vicious cycle, the tax system is decided by politicians who are funded by donations from the richest individuals and corporations with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo
(Not to mention the fact that in a globalized world, billionaires can play nation states off against each other to force down taxes and regulations in their own best interests)

Akrasia · 28-08-2020 8:24am

mick087 wrote: »

Yes some are very good employers.
In one company you could have some that are treated well paid bonus etc and within the same comapny some paid a low wage and not treated in a good way.

At the moment we live in a socitey that wants and encourages this. But is it right? Thats up to each person to decide.

Corporations dehumanize workers. They may pay good compensation and benefits to the ‘talent’ but they will outsource everything else so that you can work in a building where the company pays its staff way above average, but all of the cleaners, cooks, security, print room staff etc are all on minimum wage working for contractors who bid at the lowest price.

Suppliers get squeezed without regard for the consequences to the employees of those suppliers, it’s just a heartless system with lobbiests funded by the wealthiest, putting pressure on governments to reduce standards and workers rights and supports for struggling workers in the good times, and lobbying for bailouts and grants and supports for their industry when the economic cycle turns downwards

IAMAMORON · 28-08-2020 8:25am

@ Akrasia - I respect that you have probably just put down your copy of "Differenz der demokritischen und epikureischen Naturphilosophie nebst einem Anhange" and I am glad you had a look, it is good to keep abreast of 19th century philosophy after all.

But lets be honest, when that crap was written 12 year olds were working coal mines in their bare feat in towns like Vladivostock and Redhill. People lived in sweat shops on the river Barrow ironing linen 7 days a week.

Get a grip, you need a few Billionaires to keep the economy going, they are paying billions in tax despite the crap you hear down the pub or read in the rags.

I happened to study economics at 3rd level and I know that there are 4 stages of production, one of them is ENTERPRISE. It is a fact of life, Get over it.

Wanderer78 · 28-08-2020 8:29am

IAMAMORON wrote:

Get a grip, you need a few Billionaires to keep the economy going, they are paying billions in tax despite the crap you hear down the pub or read in the rags.

The activities of the wealthy aren't always good for humanity, some are of course, some are transferring the lives of humans immensely, but some are causing great damage, it's not always win win for all!

IAMAMORON wrote:

I happened to study economics at 3rd level and I know that there are 4 stages of production, one of them is ENTERPRISE. It is a fact of life, Get over it.

Probably largely neoclassical, ignore it, it's largely nonsense

begbysback · 28-08-2020 8:34am

Akrasia wrote: »

Corporations dehumanize workers. They may pay good compensation and benefits to the ‘talent’ but they will outsource everything else so that you can work in a building where the company pays its staff way above average, but all of the cleaners, cooks, security, print room staff etc are all on minimum wage working for contractors who bid at the lowest price.

Suppliers get squeezed without regard for the consequences to the employees of those suppliers, it’s just a heartless system with lobbiests funded by the wealthiest, putting pressure on governments to reduce standards and workers rights and supports for struggling workers in the good times, and lobbying for bailouts and grants and supports for their industry when the economic cycle turns downwards

How many people does your broke ass employ?

IAMAMORON · 28-08-2020 8:40am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The activities of the wealthy aren't always good for humanity, some are of course, some are transferring the lives of humans immensely, but some are causing great damage, it's not always win win for all!

I wouldn't waste your time blaming things on the wealthy. Just because you have read a few books does not mean you are in a position to take their power away, or their wealth. When the mob comes for their heads they will just jump in their choppers and be in the Caribbean in an hour. Wealthy people are too busy making money to be worried about tribesmen in Namibia hunting tree lizards and barbecuing them with wild honey.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Probably largely neoclassical, ignore it, it's largely nonsense

Agreed and I think they need to get modern tech in their also, it is game changing after all.

Akrasia · 28-08-2020 8:41am

IAMAMORON wrote: »

@ Akrasia - I respect that you have probably just put down your copy of "Differenz der demokritischen und epikureischen Naturphilosophie nebst einem Anhange" and I am glad you had a look, it is good to keep abreast of 19th century philosophy after all.

But lets be honest, when that crap was written 12 year olds were working coal mines in their bare feat in towns like Vladivostock and Redhill. People lived in sweat shops on the river Barrow ironing linen 7 days a week.

Get a grip, you need a few Billionaires to keep the economy going, they are paying billions in tax despite the crap you hear down the pub or read in the rags.

I happened to study economics at 3rd level and I know that there are 4 stages of production, one of them is ENTERPRISE. It is a fact of life, Get over it.

I also studied economics at 3rd level and supernormal profits are a market failure

Billionaires very often earn and grow/maintain their fortune by extracting economic rent from the trading and ownership of resources rather than from generating any new value from their own labour or enterprise and as people get richer and dominate their sector, they gain monopolies and can distort the markets they are trading in so they can profit further even by reducing the productivity of the sector overall

Oh and by the way, child labour absolutely still exists, it has been outsourced to countries with lower regulations on labour or to suppliers who operate on the fringes between the official and black economy

Opinion on billionaires.

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