Too much fruit?

paleoperson · 23-09-2018 10:39pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Well done on wrecking the thread.

It's mindless ****e like this is a big part of why I don't add more.

Mellor · 24-09-2018 4:03am

paleoperson wrote: »

Some people are just too dumb to argue with, hopefully not you.

:rolleyes:

If I say it's sunny today, that is an opinion and a belief. It's not a "statement of fact", especially in the commonly used sense and especially in the sense you were using it by claiming that statements of fact are things that can be and should be clearly backed up. That was the whole reason you used the term. What is a small amount of protein to you may be a lot to others.

Saying it's sunny is subjective. It's down to your interpretation of "sunny".
The amount of protein is a food is objective. Do you understand the difference? The amount of protein in a banana, an apple, or a melon, is know and quantifiable (unlike how sunny is is). This is simple stuff, if you can;t grasp that you should be posting about nutrition.

You might have your own view on what is enough or plenty, and I might have mine. But that doesn't prevent you from posting this apparent all-fruit diet with plenty of protein - which is what you said.

This is honestly very basic stuff. Anyone can make a mistake but I am disappointed do see you coming back again stating it's a "statement of fact". Meanwhile you yourself think it's fine to get away making statements like "fruit is devoid of protein" which was an actual statement of fact and it wasn't completely clear at all that you were talking metaphorically or "silly" to think otherwise.

If was pretty clear to everyone else. If you didn't understand, that's an issue with your own comprehension.

paleoperson wrote: »

Completely false, there can be plenty of protein and fat in all-fruit diets.

An all-fruit diet has inadequate protein and fat in my opinion. You disagreed with that, and I'm asking for an example. This is not a difficult request. The fact you can't give an example strongly suggests you were talking pony.

silverharp · 24-09-2018 2:04pm

I found this amusing

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/monkeys-banned-from-eating-bananas-at-devon-zoo-9058856.html

Monkeys at a zoo in Devon have been banned from eating bananas – for the sake of their health.

Zookeepers said the fruit grown and exported for human consumption have far higher levels of sugar than the ones monkeys would eat in the wild – to the point that it’s bad for their teeth and can lead to diabetes.

Despite the obvious cliché, the animals are now only allowed to have bananas as a special treat or when they need medication. Nutritionists likened it to giving children cake and chocolate, but added that unlike children the deprived monkeys “can’t complain”.

Experts at Paignton Zoo, Devon, said the sugar-free diet was working wonders for the animals – even making them calmer and more sociable.

Senior head keeper of mammals Matthew Webb said: “We have noticed an improvement in the condition of primate coats - in particular the colour and thickness of the fur of the Sulawesi crested black macaques.

“Smaller monkeys such as tamarins and marmosets are highly-strung animals and live in tight-knit social groups which can be quite aggressive at times. Reducing the sugar in their diets has calmed them down and made their groups more settled.”

rubadub · 24-09-2018 5:46pm

I remember hearing about this

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/jan/28/ashton-kutcher-hospital-steve-jobs-diet

Ashton Kutcher landed in hospital after following Steve Jobs's fruitarian diet

Speaking at the premiere of Jobs at the Sundance film festival on Friday night, Kutcher revealed that he went to hospital with pancreas problems after following a strict diet of fruit, nuts and seeds. Jobs, who was often reported to be a fruitarian, died of pancreatic cancer in October last year.

"First of all, the fruitarian diet can lead to, like, severe issues," Kutcher told USA Today. "I went to the hospital like two days before we started shooting the movie. I was like doubled over in pain. My pancreas levels were completely out of whack. It was really terrifying … considering everything."

He was eating nuts, and many "nuts" can be high in protein & fat, and some things colloquially called "nuts" can botanically be called fruits. But it was blatantly obvious the OP was not talking about any sort of "nuts" when they spoke of fruit. -I was expecting paleoperson to give that as a pedantic smartarse reply to back up the "there can be plenty of protein and fat in all-fruit diets" statement.

paleoperson · 24-09-2018 5:47pm

silverharp wrote: »

I found this amusing

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/monkeys-banned-from-eating-bananas-at-devon-zoo-9058856.html

It's not amusing at all. It's disturbing this kind of tripe they come up with about sugar where everything is turned on its head

First of all bananas are the only fruit I know of that is artificially selected for beyond recognition. If there is any problem or difficulty with fruit, yes the finger could be pointed to them. It's why I don't eat too many bananas myself. This compared to grains where the vast majority have been completely artificially selected beyond recognition.

A lot of what they're saying is just fabricated. The idea that wild fruit is bitter, low in sugar or whatever else suits the agenda of the writers is at best pop science and at worst lying. For example cultivating and breeding practices tend to reduce sugar content in tomatoes:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/fruits/article/biochemical-factors-contributing-to-tomato-fruit-sugar-content-a-review/0B8859B07B05FE57EF249A30D2F182F8

Many wild varieties have a lot more sugar and are a lot sweeter:

https://deniseminger.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/

Soluble sugar and malic acid contents in mature fruits of 364 apple accessions were quantified using high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC). Fructose and sucrose represented the major components of soluble sugars in cultivated fruits, whilst fructose and glucose were the major items of sugars in wild fruits. Wild fruits were significantly more acidic than cultivated fruits, whilst the average concentration of total sugars and sweetness index were quite similar between cultivated and wild fruits. Thus, our study suggests that fruit acidity rather than sweetness is likely to have undergone selection during apple domestication. Additionally, malic acid content was positively correlated with glucose content and negatively correlated with sucrose content. This suggests that selection of fruit acidity must have an effect on the proportion of sugar components in apple fruits. Our study provides information that could be helpful for future apple breeding.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814614013995

So this thing that she stated:

“People usually try to improve their diet by eating more fruit - but fruit cultivated for humans is much higher in sugar and much lower in protein and fibre than most wild fruit because we like our fruit to be so sweet and juicy,” she said.

is completely bogus. It has nothing to do with sugar, the whole thing against sugar is a myth.

I think zookeepers are a bit like farmers in that they're very good at what they do but they don't have the in-depth theoretical knowledge, it's more a going with their gut and then following expert advice type of thing. The advice here about bananas was likely given to them by animal experts, I doubt I'd ever give the advice myself but considering the artificial selection bananas have been put true it's not the wildest idea out there.

But their knowledge is much more practical and with a keen eye for things going on, blended with some superstition, anecdotal accounts of how this or that helped, and certainly can't be relied on for getting real scientific knowledge about the animals.

rubadub wrote: »

I remember hearing about this

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/jan/28/ashton-kutcher-hospital-steve-jobs-diet

He was eating nuts, and many "nuts" can be high in protein & fat, and some things colloquially called "nuts" can botanically be called fruits. But it was blatantly obvious the OP was not talking about any sort of "nuts" when they spoke of fruit. -I was expecting paleoperson to give that as a pedantic smartarse reply to back up the "there can be plenty of protein and fat in all-fruit diets" statement.

I'm not a pedant, I try to use words as others are using them, otherwise what's the point of language. I don't mislead people and then say "gotcha", what a waste of time.

rubadub · 24-09-2018 6:01pm

paleoperson wrote: »

I'm not a pedant, I try to use words as others are using them, otherwise what's the point of language. I don't mislead people and then say "gotcha", what a waste of time.

I know, I was saying you were not pedantic.

My point was that the only way I could think of how you could possibly back up your point would have been to resort to pedantry. Thankfully you did not. You simply just never bothered to back it up in any way. You wrote quite lengthy posts, but could not bother to actually help people and just list even one of these fruits which have plentiful protein.

adox · 24-09-2018 6:13pm

Still waiting........

paleoperson · 24-09-2018 6:34pm

I thought I had made this clear before, apparently not.

"plenty" is relative. 1% may sound like a small number, but 1% of an apple being cyanide would kill you. By this measure every fruit has "plenty" of protein, but ok I'll follow up by stating that you should eat some vegetables and leafy greens as well so you don't have to worry about it at all.

If you need any more, then why aren't the people who eat just apples dead? There are people out there that do do that. When have you heard of anyone ever having "protein deficiency"? Maybe in third world countries, but that's mostly due to malnutrition.

What about people who eat bread and biscuits and the like all the time? Where are they getting their protein? There are vegan weightlifters and body builders.

I was eating lots of nuts until a few months back but I decided to give them up because I prefer a leaner look and they were the only high calorie things that were putting on pounds. Why amn't I dead yet? I've done it for far longer before.

I read before that it would be almost impossible to get too little protein. One guy here ate nothing except potatoes for a year:

http://theconversation.com/how-much-protein-do-you-really-need-70426

The body produces its own protein, it's not like an essential vitamin. If anything high protein is what you need to look out for. Low protein levels are not a problem in a healthy individual.

Mellor · 25-09-2018 12:53am

I try to use words as others are using them, otherwise what's the point of language. I don't mislead people and then say "gotcha", what a waste of time.

That's literally the opposite of what you are doing.
You knew what I was saying about an all-fruit diet, except you are clinging that hard on for "devoid".
You also keep misusing relative for some reason.

paleoperson wrote: »

I
"plenty" is relative. 1% may sound like a small number, but 1% of an apple being cyanide would kill you. By this measure every fruit has "plenty" of protein,

Plenty is relative. 1% of cyanide is more than "plenty". It's very high because other foods have far less cyanide than that. Bitter almonds are poisonous due to cyanide. They are 0.5%. That's how relative works.

Bananas are 1% protein. Beans are 21%. Beef is 25%

Which unquestionably proves that banana are relatively low in protein.

but ok I'll follow up by stating that you should eat some vegetables and leafy greens as well so you don't have to worry about it at all.

Or you could actually eat some good sources of protein.

If you need any more, then why aren't the people who eat just apples dead? There are people out there that do do that. When have you heard of anyone ever having "protein deficiency"?

What about people who eat bread and biscuits and the like all the time? Where are they getting their protein? There are vegan weightlifters and body builders.

I was eating lots of nuts until a few months back but I decided to give them up because I prefer a leaner look and they were the only high calorie things that were putting on pounds. Why amn't I dead yet? I've done it for far longer before.

Something, particularly a diet, being unhealthy doesn't instantly kill you. It's slowly negative over a long period.

Of course there are vegan bodybuilders. There are vegan sources of protein, that they eat a lot of.
Pea protein, soy, beans, tofu, setian, tempeh, lentils, legumes, etc. None of them are fruit.

There's no issue with a vegan diet (as long somebody makes sure to get a balanced diet). The issue was completely with your fruititarian suggestion.

The body produces its own protein, it's not like an essential vitamin.

I think this confirms you haven't a breeze about diet or nutrition.

Wiki wrote:

An essential amino acid, or indispensable amino acid, is an amino acid that cannot be synthesized de novo (from scratch) by the organism, and thus must be supplied in its diet. The nine amino acids humans cannot synthesize are phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and histidine

silverharp · 25-09-2018 8:52am

paleoperson wrote: »

It's not amusing at all. It's disturbing this kind of tripe they come up with about sugar where everything is turned on its head

First of all bananas are the only fruit I know of that is artificially selected for beyond recognition. If there is any problem or difficulty with fruit, yes the finger could be pointed to them. It's why I don't eat too many bananas myself. This compared to grains where the vast majority have been completely artificially selected beyond recognition.

A lot of what they're saying is just fabricated. The idea that wild fruit is bitter, low in sugar or whatever else suits the agenda of the writers is at best pop science and at worst lying. For example cultivating and breeding practices tend to reduce sugar content in tomatoes:

Humans never had year round access to fruit , there is probably a harmonious circle in the seasons where fruits probably aid fat storage in the summer for what would have been the leaner winter months. the bias has to be that an all fruit or nearly all fruit diet would be unhealthy in the long term and certainly going by some youtubers ive seen, its not doing them any favors.

Macy0161 · 25-09-2018 12:21pm

I'm not really convinced that bananas are that much of an outlier when it comes to selective breeding of fruit and vegetables. Pretty much every fruit and vegetable has been cross breed for human consumption/ taste/ storage/ harvest efficiency.

Mellor · 25-09-2018 12:54pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Pretty much every fruit and vegetable has been cross breed for human consumption/ taste/ storage.

Every Granny Smith, that anyone has ever eaten. Came from a graft from a single tree in Australia.

silverharp · 25-09-2018 1:06pm

Mellor wrote: »

Every Granny Smith, that anyone has ever eaten. Came from a graft from a single tree in Australia.

as in that was a native type of apple there? I had seen that European apples are a hybrid of European Crab apples and Mongolian native apples, how true not sure

Mellor · 25-09-2018 2:30pm

silverharp wrote: »

as in that was a native type of apple ther

Not a native species. It was a single hybrid tree that popped up by chance. Every tree and fruit around the world is a clone of that single tree in Sydney.
You can't grow a Granny Smith tree from its seeds.

paleoperson · 25-09-2018 4:59pm

Mellor wrote: »

There's no issue with a vegan diet (as long somebody makes sure to get a balanced diet). The issue was completely with your fruititarian suggestion.

What fruitarian suggestion? I never said people should go and eat a fruitarian diet.

It's these aggressive attacks that are why I didn't want to come back. People just fighting for the sake of fighting and appearing right. I think I've heard enough from you right now Mellor.

Mellor wrote: »

I think this confirms you haven't a breeze about diet or nutrition.

That is false. Of course I knew about essential amino acids however this is not an important issue for people who are not malnourished. It's more like you who are uninformed and wasting my time. I take some supplements because of various natural thing like vitamin b12 not being gotten in large enough quantities in modern diets. If I ever start showing any symptoms or my blood tests stop coming back near perfect for me I'll give another look at it.

silverharp wrote: »

Humans never had year round access to fruit ,

This is another thing that is completely, 100% false that is always going around. Humans in the jungle and apes today indeed to have year round access to fruit. At all times of the year there are different and lots of fruit in abundance. The tropics don't have a cold season, there are fruit all year around (perhaps in some small regions there is none but they could migrate a little if that's the case).

Also I am the only person I have ever seen stating this so I dare you, come on and try to double check me and show me wrong. I have done my research and in the jungles and savannas of sub-Saharan Africa where humans and apes evolved there is fruit readily available all year around.

silverharp wrote: »

there is probably a harmonious circle in the seasons where fruits probably aid fat storage in the summer for what would have been the leaner winter months.

"there is probably a harmonious circle"....

silverharp wrote: »

the bias has to be that an all fruit or nearly all fruit diet would be unhealthy in the long term and certainly going by some youtubers ive seen, its not doing them any favors.

"there is probably" this and "the bias must be" that. First of all, as I have committed to fruit is widely available all year around despite what I have seen people comment dozens of times online without ever showing it, just assuming it.

Secondly, creating ad hoc theories of evolutionary theory on the fly is known widespread to be a fallacy, also called "just so" theories of evolution. They're completely falsifiable and a lot of the time you could also easily argue the exact opposite.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/205/1161/581

My most important point here is that fruit is available at all points during the year where humans and apes evolved and that statement you made contrary to this is confabulation.

Mellor · 26-09-2018 2:39am

paleoperson wrote: »

What fruitarian suggestion? I never said people should go and eat a fruitarian diet.

Do you really post so much nonsense that you can't keep up.
Reminder;

paleoperson wrote: »

You could eat 100% fruit.

paleoperson wrote: »

Completely false, there can be plenty of protein and fat in all-fruit diets.

It's these aggressive attacks that are why I didn't want to come back. People just fighting for the sake of fighting and appearing right. I think I've heard enough from you right now Mellor.

Aggressive? My posts have been calm, and matter of fact.
You on the other hand had to resort to childish personal insults.

But's that's the MO right. Somebody calls you on your BS so you throw some personal jibe, and then pretend to take the pseudo-highground

That is false. Of course I knew about essential amino acids however this is not an important issue for people who are not malnourished. It's more like you who are uninformed and wasting my time.

So you knew about them. But you decided to claim there's no such thing as essential protein. Sure, that makes loads of sense.

Also I am the only person I have ever seen stating this so I dare you, come on and try to double check me and show me wrong. I have done my research and in the jungles and savannas of sub-Saharan Africa where humans and apes evolved there is fruit readily available all year around.

The availibility of fruit is irrelevant to the point I was making, However, fruit available continuously in sub-Saharan Africa means SFA to somebody in northern europe. This shouldn't need to be pointed out