How lucrative is a career in Computer Science?

05-10-2020 5:17pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

salonfire, here's some of your previous insights into programming:

* any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

* writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

* people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

* design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

You are free to continue giving your stupid opinion on this topic.

All true, that's why people with only a Leaving Cert, people who have a degree in History, people who used to carry bricks for a living are now IT developers.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions.

Great!! Now I see we are on the same page. I was happy to continue to challenge you until you accepted this truth!

beauf · 05-10-2020 5:34pm

You can do it. But the odds are stacked against you, and getting worse.

Some 62.6 percent of the 44,636 developers who responded to Stack Overflow’s question about education said that they had majored in computer science, computer engineering, or software engineering. Another 9.3 percent had majored in another engineering discipline (i.e., mechanical, electrical, etc.). In third place, some 7.9 percent said they had majored in information systems, information technology, or system administration.

What can we conclude from this data? Roughly three-quarters of developers have the equivalent of a bachelor’s degree or higher, and nearly as many (72 percent) earned that degree in their computer science, computer/software engineering, or another engineering field). Moreover, some 85 percent of respondents felt that a formal education is at least somewhat important; in the notes accompanying the survey data, Stack Overflow noted that this sentiment “is contrary to the popular idiom that you don’t need formal education to become a developer.”

I'd say of jobs filled through Agencies and HR departments the % would be far higher.

beauf · 05-10-2020 5:37pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No, this time I really am genuine. I've been given an ultimatum by parents. Either do this course or get out of the house.

Even this was real, that you have to be forced into it, is not promising.

OMM 0000 · 05-10-2020 5:52pm

salonfire wrote: »

All true

I'm going to give an analogy to explain how stupid you're being.

I buy some bricks and planks of wood, and use them to build a bridge over a very small river near my home. I now call myself a civil engineer and aggressively tell everyone all you need to be a civil engineer are some bricks and wood and anyone can do it.

If you look at my post history you'll notice I only talk about three things: career advice (I try to bring balance to the discussions by giving the management perspective), computer science stuff, and rants about US politics.

I stay in my lane. Maybe you should too?

I know you're going to double down so there's no point having any further discussion with you.

Zascar · 05-10-2020 6:11pm

As already mentioned you dont need to be a programmer, loads of other types of roles. Look into Presales. You are the techy consultant for the sales guys - they can make very good money and you only need to be mildly technical. Also you could move into sales where the real money is made. There was a post here a few weeks back of a guy on serious money doing this.

The two guys I know who earn the most amount of money are Solution Artchtects for Amazon - not in Ireland but they are on more than $200,000 including shares etc.

05-10-2020 6:30pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

salonfire, here's some of your previous insights into programming:

* any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

* writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

* people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

* design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

You are free to continue giving your stupid opinion on this topic.

Well to be fair, those are all true.

Which is partly why there are so many bad developers around. Present company excepted of course.

OMM 0000 · 05-10-2020 6:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well to be fair, those are all true.

They're not true.

Let's just take this one as an example:

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

It doesn't even make sense.

05-10-2020 7:19pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They're not true.

Let's just take this one as an example:

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

It doesn't even make sense.

It means given a problem statement or business ask, you break it down, create your classes and viola you're done. Check in your code and move on to the next item of the day. Or go get a cup of coffee.

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is partly why there are so many bad developers around. Present company excepted of course.

And with tools like Informatica, that's literally drag and drop and pretty pictures to visualize the logic, you can get away being a bad or average developer.

Divisadero · 05-10-2020 7:23pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I stay in my lane. Maybe you should too?

I don't suppose there's any chance you could leave the motorway entirely?

pwurple · 06-10-2020 12:01pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No, this time I really am genuine. I've been given an ultimatum by parents. Either do this course or get out of the house.

So, to sum up.

Your parents think you are leeching off them.
Your only question is how much money you can make after the course.

These imply you have no ability to actually do work.

Find what you want to do, and do that. CS is a difficult course, that you will fail if you don't at least have a passing interest in it.

skinny90 · 06-10-2020 12:25pm

Zascar wrote: »

As already mentioned you dont need to be a programmer, loads of other types of roles. Look into Presales. You are the techy consultant for the sales guys - they can make very good money and you only need to be mildly technical. Also you could move into sales where the real money is made. There was a post here a few weeks back of a guy on serious money doing this.

The two guys I know who earn the most amount of money are Solution Artchtects for Amazon - not in Ireland but they are on more than $200,000 including shares etc.

tech presales here, moved from a dev support role to presales and iv nearly doubled my salary from the last job which wasnt great to start with hence the move. it comes with its own challenges but worth considering for sure...

I personally have enjoyed every second of it!

If I have learned something for sure its that working in a dept thats influencing sales and responsible generating revenue is far more rewarding

gmisk · 06-10-2020 12:30pm

I studied computer science at University, but you are talking the guts of 19ish years ago.
I found it incredibly interesting and relevant the content was pretty broad, on my course you could select modules that were more interesting to you. Study the syllabus and modules to make sure you are really into it. I did java myself back then! I know a few people who switched out to software engineering and similar areas after year one.
Quite a few drop outs as well.
I did a masters in management of information systems part time as well in trinity but that was maybe 10 years back.

To be blunt though if you are not into IT it really isn't the course for you.

I personally didn't go into programming career wise.
I worked in tech support, network support, network development, e-learning, and more recently in the data science area. I now work as a project manager so to be honest you don't have to be wildly technical.

Lots of great advice here already.
Good luck with your studies

TuringBot47 · 07-10-2020 2:07am

salonfire wrote: »

I agree, but my point is anybody can pickup the very basics. So someone looking to build a career needs to work from there..

It's like comparing someone who just works in a tyre changing quik-fit type outfit to a qualified mechanic.

Sure, you can do bits and pieces but you're not going to understand every part of a system and would be trying to learn on the job every day. Only good for repetitive jobs with a narrow scope.

AllForIt · 16-10-2020 8:53pm

skinny90 wrote: »

tech presales here, moved from a dev support role to presales and iv nearly doubled my salary from the last job which wasnt great to start with hence the move. it comes with its own challenges but worth considering for sure...

I personally have enjoyed every second of it!

If I have learned something for sure its that working in a dept thats influencing sales and responsible generating revenue is far more rewarding

Asking a personal question here: I have a degree in CS but I didn't go into it as a career. I was 'good' as programming but I understood what it took time wise to have a successful career in development and it wasn't what I wanted. I since did a course in business and sales ,for the sales part. Could you point me in the area of where you work more specially as it sounds like something I'd be interested it. Tks.

16-10-2020 9:40pm

skinny90 wrote: »

If I have learned something for sure its that working in a dept thats influencing sales and responsible generating revenue is far more rewarding

Just to give an alternate point of view, I work in data analysis sort of work and my previous role was in sales, and I pretty much hated it. I'm working in operations now and I'm miles happier.

skinny90 · 17-10-2020 8:52am

AllForIt wrote: »

Asking a personal question here: I have a degree in CS but I didn't go into it as a career. I was 'good' as programming but I understood what it took time wise to have a successful career in development and it wasn't what I wanted. I since did a course in business and sales ,for the sales part. Could you point me in the area of where you work more specially as it sounds like something I'd be interested it. Tks.

I work as a sales engineer/solutions engineer. We provide many solutions across the SDLC. For the most part it’s presales and expansion oppertunities.I work closely with the account managers ensuring we get the technical win when it comes to prospects evaluating our solutions. I also create content, host webinars, go to conferences, do talks at them about topics like development processes or broader topics like AI/ML how it is affecting our market
Sales wise what would you like to know?
If you are thinking of getting into sales, understanding the sales funnel and managing that funnel is important. If this is your first rodeo then I would say it’s worth considering checking out the SDR programmes in a company. It gives someone the opp to get an insight into what’s involved and work with account managers without having a target on their head. I know our programme has been quite successful. Many have joined the company as sdrs and gone on to be very successful Account managers, leaders and directors

skinny90 · 17-10-2020 8:59am

Harrison Loud Oaf wrote: »

Just to give an alternate point of view, I work in data analysis sort of work and my previous role was in sales, and I pretty much hated it. I'm working in operations now and I'm miles happier.

Nice, happy days. Data analysis sounds cool. I agree and working in sales isn’t for everyone. For me my experience was development and support and it just got monotonous working on tickets. What I enjoy the most now is the quick paced days and the fact that I am working with such a mix of technologies within the customers landscape. Everyday is a learning day. I also don’t have a target or quota on my head, so I’m focused purely on the technical win rather than closing deals. However more often that not getting that technical win influences deals to close

Giblet · 17-10-2020 10:42am

Plenty of bad code out there to be rewritten into other bad code.

listermint · 17-10-2020 10:50am

skinny90 wrote: »

Nice, happy days. Data analysis sounds cool. I agree and working in sales isn’t for everyone. For me my experience was development and support and it just got monotonous working on tickets. What I enjoy the most now is the quick paced days and the fact that I am working with such a mix of technologies within the customers landscape. Everyday is a learning day. I also don’t have a target or quota on my head, so I’m focused purely on the technical win rather than closing deals. However more often that not getting that technical win influences deals to close

Sounds like you weren't in true Dev support role. You would have been on a level 1 or level 2 role where tickets were the norm and low salary. A level 3 Dev support would be expected to update code, repair data breaks, system uptime monitoring and resolution. Problem and incident management. It's far from monotonous and would have higher salary scales.

Just to counter the point.

Manach · 17-10-2020 10:59am

A summary from a career so far that the advantages are there is usually not an issue getting a job with fairly good wages. The downsides are the long hours, as upskilling is mostly left to yourself and some companies (Multi-Nats) expect unpaid overtime work when the need arises which can be often.

Jim2007 · 17-10-2020 11:01am

Giblet wrote: »

Plenty of bad code out there to be rewritten into other bad code.

Nonsense, every business manager knows we have not “rewritten” any bad code since the benefits “refactoring” was explained to him

listermint · 17-10-2020 11:03am

Jim2007 wrote: »

Nonsense, every business manager knows we have not “rewritten” any bad code since the benefits “refactoring” was explained to him

But who refactors the refactorers :P

HamSarris · 17-10-2020 11:38am

In 4 years time when satellites start falling from the sky and washing machines start attacking people, that will be Mr Fegelien's first week as a programmer

Jim2007 · 17-10-2020 11:41am

Manach wrote: »

The downsides are the long hours, as upskilling is mostly left to yourself and some companies (Multi-Nats) expect unpaid overtime work when the need arises which can be often.

Well two things really, this only happens in countries where the work life balance is not respected, which tends to be the English speaking world and when it does happen it applies to other professionals as well.

For instance I worked in Switzerland for over 30 years and on average you might work say 20 hours overtime in a year, if that as a developer. Federal law makes it very expensive to have people working overtime. First of all OT of 125% up to 20:00 and 150% there after and at weekends must be paid to all staff including managers (and salary includes OT does not fly) and secondly all OT is considered approved unless the company takes active steps to prevent you from doing it.

The result is that if you are doing say a major roll out the only people there will be the people needed to do the task and only for as long as absolutely necessary. That usually means very few managers for instance.

From a career point of view regularly working overtime is a negative flag - you or your manager must be incompetent if you have to do OT regularly.

OT and in particular unpaid is just not part of the Swiss work life. Expats working for US multi nations are another story.

OMM 0000 · 17-10-2020 12:58pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

you or your manager must be incompetent if you have to do OT regularly.

I think that's unfair. If your team are understaffed and the executive management refuse to increase the team's budget (or can't increase the budget due to financial issues), there's not much the manager or staff can do.

Also, if your team rely on another team's delivery, your fate can belong to them. Here's a real example:

A software company who use waterfall as their SDLC. A meeting is held and all the team managers (product management, development, QA) give their estimate on how long they need to get their work done.

Product management guesstimate they need two months to finish the specs.

Dev guesstimate they need four months to write the code.

QA guesstimate they need two months of testing before they can release.

So that's eight months in total.

In reality this is what happens:

Product management take three months.

Dev take six months.

The project is now a month late, and QA haven't even started.

The CEO has promised the product will be released in December, so QA are forced to work a lot of overtime to reach this date.

beauf · 17-10-2020 1:28pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think that's unfair. If your team are understaffed and the executive management refuse to increase the team's budget (or can't increase the budget due to financial issues), there's not much the manager or staff can do.

Also, if your team rely on another team's delivery, your fate can belong to them. Here's a real example:

...

I both agreed and disagree with you. Certainly there are factors outside of your control.

I think waterfall is blamed when it's often poor management. It might be that waterfall only works with strong management. That would be fair.

But if OT becomes normalised and habitual. Then it suggests dysfunction. That I would say is poor management.

The one common characteristic I find with projects that come in on schedule and those that don't is the people involved. Some people always bring projects in on schedule and some don't.

For IT projects there's a loads of common traits that tell you very early on, usually in the initial meeting of how the project will go.

beauf · 17-10-2020 1:34pm

There's another side to this this. Sometimes you end up propping up this poor management and poor project planning. By trying to deliver the impossible you, being the "can do" person, you become complicit in perpetuating such practice. You might actually be better walking away from it, and only attach yourself to well run projects. Let the other stuff eat itself.

Usually the people who keep creating these unrealistic projects can't see that it they who are causing the issues and thus are unable to change and fix it.

https://hbr.org/2018/09/too-many-projects

OMM 0000 · 17-10-2020 1:45pm

beauf wrote: »

I both agreed and disagree with you. Certainly there are factors outside of your control.

I think waterfall is blamed when it's often poor management. It might be that waterfall only works with strong management. That would be fair.

But if OT becomes normalised and habitual. Then it suggests dysfunction. That I would say is poor management.

The one common characteristic I find with projects that come in on schedule and those that don't is the people involved. Some people always bring projects in on schedule and some don't.

For IT projects there's a loads of common traits that tell you very early on, usually in the initial meeting of how the project will go.

Sure. In the example I gave, the problem is poor management, but it's not the QA managers fault (the person requesting the overtime), it's the managers upstream who gave lowball guesstimates and allowed their teams to miss the deadline.

So my point is your manager and you can be completely blameless for the amount of overtime you have to do.

beauf · 17-10-2020 1:48pm

It's not like overtime is always a bad thing if it's well rewarded some people like doing it.

The problem is if it's not rewarded and expected.

Jim2007 · 17-10-2020 8:41pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think that's unfair. If your team are understaffed and the executive management refuse to increase the team's budget (or can't increase the budget due to financial issues), there's not much the manager or staff can do.

Also, if your team rely on another team's delivery, your fate can belong to them. Here's a real example:

A software company who use waterfall as their SDLC. A meeting is held and all the team managers (product management, development, QA) give their estimate on how long they need to get their work done.

Product management guesstimate they need two months to finish the specs.

Dev guesstimate they need four months to write the code.

QA guesstimate they need two months of testing before they can release.

So that's eight months in total.

In reality this is what happens:

Product management take three months.

Dev take six months.

The project is now a month late, and QA haven't even started.

The CEO has promised the product will be released in December, so QA are forced to work a lot of overtime to reach this date.

Your basic assumption is wrong. People do not behave in the way you assume.

When a manager know he will actually be held to the developer's guesstimate as you call it, he won't accept it nor commit to it, unless he is absolutely sure he can deliver.

Likewise if the CEO knows that he is facing a bill which he legally must meet of say a 100% overrun, he becomes a lot more realistic about what is willing to commit to.

It is not unusually for a Swiss business manager to double the estimate he gets from IT, just to be sure that he will not get caught short.

What goes on many US companies in particular is complete nonsense - everyone committing to a project plan that they know from the get go will not be achieved.

Jim2007 · 17-10-2020 8:47pm

beauf wrote: »

It's not like overtime is always a bad thing if it's well rewarded some people like doing it.

Actually in most cases it is, because it means that people are not get sufficient downtime to be at the top of their game when they are on the job. It's also why most Swiss firms require employers to take a three week block holiday once a year.

OMM 0000 · 17-10-2020 8:50pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Your basic assumption is wrong. People do not behave in the way you assume.

When a manager know he will actually be held to the developer's guesstimate as you call it, he won't accept it nor commit to it, unless he is absolutely sure he can deliver.

Likewise if the CEO knows that he is facing a bill which he legally must meet of say a 100% overrun, he becomes a lot more realistic about what is willing to commit to.

It is not unusually for a Swiss business manager to double the estimate he gets from IT, just to be sure that he will not get caught short.

What goes on many US companies in particular is complete nonsense - everyone committing to a project plan that they know from the get go will not be achieved.

My basic assumption isn't wrong. I've been working in IT over 20 years, about 10 of those years in QA (multiple companies), and I saw the same thing over and over.

Even on a common sense level, obviously if QA receive the product close to the release date they are going to have to work overtime, otherwise the release date will need to be changed. You can't always change the release date.

I don't think it makes sense to keep applying the Swiss model to Ireland. Ireland is much closer to the US model.

OMM 0000 · 17-10-2020 9:00pm

beauf wrote: »

It's not like overtime is always a bad thing if it's well rewarded some people like doing it.

The problem is if it's not rewarded and expected.

Yeah I remember working for a multinational which had overtime available all the time (optional), and quite a few people loved doing it as it was double pay.

At the time I was gearing up for a round the world trip, so I took advantage of it as much as I could.

When you want to do the overtime, and you know you're being paid a lot for it, it's an entirely different mindset. You enjoy doing it.

That was 10 years ago and I haven't come back to Ireland yet :P

beauf · 17-10-2020 11:06pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Actually in most cases it is, because it means that people are not get sufficient downtime to be at the top of their game when they are on the job. It's also why most Swiss firms require employers to take a three week block holiday once a year.

That's not strictly true some people especially creatives work better under pressure. But not everyone, and you can't do it forever or you burn out and start to make mistakes. Which is why if it becomes habitual in a companies management culture it's toxic.

In one place I worked I actually did a load of analysis on how the development teams were so worn out they were creating more bugs than the teams could fix. The curve was escalating in the wrong direction. They had a couple of crisis meetings with major clients, who were ready to drop the product over it.

Cluedo Monopoly · 18-10-2020 10:52pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think that's unfair. If your team are understaffed and the executive management refuse to increase the team's budget (or can't increase the budget due to financial issues), there's not much the manager or staff can do.

Also, if your team rely on another team's delivery, your fate can belong to them. Here's a real example:

A software company who use waterfall as their SDLC. A meeting is held and all the team managers (product management, development, QA) give their estimate on how long they need to get their work done.

Product management guesstimate they need two months to finish the specs.

Dev guesstimate they need four months to write the code.

QA guesstimate they need two months of testing before they can release.

So that's eight months in total.

In reality this is what happens:

Product management take three months.

Dev take six months.

The project is now a month late, and QA haven't even started.

The CEO has promised the product will be released in December, so QA are forced to work a lot of overtime to reach this date.

The project should be let fail i.e. slip the release date. And lessons should be learned. Burning out the QA/Dev teams is futile in the long run.

OT covers up the cracks i.e. poor management, poor estimation, lack of contingency, lack of automation, waterfall model etc

Even the best software releases late. Take the hit, learn from it.

A good manager will let that project fail and report why it will and subsequently why it did.

beauf · 18-10-2020 11:59pm

Well places can operate like that for years. Unfortunately.

OMM 0000 · 19-10-2020 8:02am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The project should be let fail i.e. slip the release date. And lessons should be learned. Burning out the QA/Dev teams is futile in the long run.

OT covers up the cracks i.e. poor management, poor estimation, lack of contingency, lack of automation, waterfall model etc

Even the best software releases late. Take the hit, learn from it.

A good manager will let that project fail and report why it will and subsequently why it did.

Ah.

The issue here is you think the manager is working for his team, not for the company.

This is the same logic as the people who think HR will somehow take your side against the company.

The correct action for a manager, a good manager, is to try to hit the release date, and do lessons learned.

The QA manager does not have the authority to "let that project fail".

How lucrative is a career in Computer Science?

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