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US ETFs no longer purchasable in Europe

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    #272
    Skelet0n
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Skelet0n


    Taylor365 wrote: »
    And its EU wide, not just Ireland.


    I think other EU nations tax them normally though, not this exit tax plus deemed disposal thing.


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    #273
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    Might be time to start ringing/sending letters to your TD. That's the only way things will change


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    #274
    Taylor365
    Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭Taylor365


    Skelet0n wrote: »
    I think other EU nations tax them normally though, not this exit tax plus deemed disposal thing.
    He was talking about US ETFs, which can't be bought directly Europe wide.


    Which are treated as CGT.


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    #275
    hog_farmer
    Site Banned Posts: 3 ✭hog_farmer


    Momento Mori wrote: »
    This is taking far too long and I'm starting to doubt US ETF's will become an attractive investment option again.

    Also, why must this country make it so hard for people who want to invest in the best performing asset class in history? I don't want to buy property.

    equities are only a good performing asset if you exclusively buy the american market , the overall european market is no higher today than it was in the year 1999 if you exclude dividends .


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    #276
    dumb_parade
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭dumb_parade


    Buying these etfs seems to have gotten even harder now. I have tried to open an account with firstrade and td ameritrade in the last few days and neither now allow accounts to be opened by Irish residents.


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    #277
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    hog_farmer wrote: »
    equities are only a good performing asset if you exclusively buy the american market , the overall european market is no higher today than it was in the year 1999 if you exclude dividends .

    Absolute twaddle! There are plenty of well performing European equities. You are not buying the market, you are buying individual stocks for heavens sake.


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    #278
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Might be time to start ringing/sending letters to your TD. That's the only way things will change

    It is an EU wide requirement that funds provide adequate information to the general public. These funds have chosen not to comply with those standards. They and they alone will have to change their minds. End of.


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    #279
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    It is an EU wide requirement that funds provide adequate information to the general public. These funds have chosen not to comply with those standards. They and they alone will have to change their minds. End of.

    Other countries don’t apply the ‘deemed disposal’ rule which is the biggest issue with these funds in Ireland.


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    #280
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    jive wrote: »
    Other countries don’t apply the ‘deemed disposal’ rule which is the biggest issue with these funds in Ireland.

    That is neither here nor there, it will not change the fact that the funds are required to provide a certain level of information in the EU and rather than doing so, they have decided not to offer their funds in Europe instead.


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    #281
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    That is neither here nor there, it will not change the fact that the funds are required to provide a certain level of information in the EU and rather than doing so, they have decided not to offer their funds in Europe instead.

    In what way is it neither here nor there? It's the entire reason for the thread. Other countries in the EU can buy and hold, Irish investors can't because of deemed disposal. Many of the funds offered are basically mirror images of those offered in the US, although with the US ETFs Irish investors could buy and hold.


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    #282
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    jive wrote: »
    In what way is it neither here nor there? It's the entire reason for the thread. Other countries in the EU can buy and hold, Irish investors can't because of deemed disposal. Many of the funds offered are basically mirror images of those offered in the US, although with the US ETFs Irish investors could buy and hold.

    Go back and read what I responded to!

    These funds are not offered anywhere in the EU legally. These funds are not mirrored funds because there are hidden retros in the US that must be disclosed and paid over to the holders in the EU. This is the reason why those providers have decided not to offer the funds in Europe - US investors would also become aware of the retros!


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    #283
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Go back and read what I responded to!

    These funds are not offered anywhere in the EU legally. These funds are not mirrored funds because there are hidden retros in the US that must be disclosed and paid over to the holders in the EU. This is the reason why those providers have decided not to offer the funds in Europe - US investors would also become aware of the retros!

    You're completely missing the point of this whole thread. Irish investors are buying US based ETFs because of the Irish taxation rules. Otherwise we would all be happily buying the EU based equivalents.


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    #284
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    You're completely missing the point of this whole thread. Irish investors are buying US based ETFs because of the Irish taxation rules. Otherwise we would all be happily buying the EU based equivalents.

    I understand exactly how it works! And my point was and is that it does not matter what the Irish tax situation is, this will not change! It is an EU requirement with far reaching impact and is here to stay.


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    #285
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I understand exactly how it works! And my point was and is that it does not matter what the Irish tax situation is, this will not change! It is an EU requirement with far reaching impact and is here to stay.

    The Irish taxation point is the fundamental issue. The only reason why Irish funds were being invested in US domiciled ETFs was because of this taxation issue. The fact that this avenue has been closed off to us, brings the fundamental issue back into the limelight.


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    #286
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    dumb_parade wrote: »
    Buying these etfs seems to have gotten even harder now. I have tried to open an account with firstrade and td ameritrade in the last few days and neither now allow accounts to be opened by Irish residents.

    I don't see why you wouldn't be able to open an account with Firstrade, what message did you get, did you email them.
    https://www.firstrade.com/content/en-us/customerservice/faqs/international/


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    #287
    dumb_parade
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭dumb_parade


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    I don't see why you wouldn't be able to open an account with Firstrade, what message did you get, did you email them.
    https://www.firstrade.com/content/en-us/customerservice/faqs/international/

    For non us residents, they send you a verification code. Which you need a valid phone number for. Ireland is not in the list of country codes.

    https://signup.firstrade.com/create/www/?lc=en-us#/intro

    I contacted them via email and they confirmed that their policy changed re. Ireland last week.

    If you see a way around this let me know. I nearly opened the account last month, but held off at the time. Pretty frustrated now.


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    #288
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    dumb_parade wrote: »
    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    I don't see why you wouldn't be able to open an account with Firstrade, what message did you get, did you email them.
    https://www.firstrade.com/content/en-us/customerservice/faqs/international/

    For non us residents, they send you a verification code. Which you need a valid phone number for. Ireland is not in the list of country codes.

    https://signup.firstrade.com/create/www/?lc=en-us#/intro

    I contacted them via email and they confirmed that their policy changed re. Ireland last week.

    If you see a way around this let me know. I nearly opened the account last month, but held off at the time. Pretty frustrated now.
    Any way to make a fake number online as a once off?


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    #289
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    dumb_parade wrote: »
    For non us residents, they send you a verification code. Which you need a valid phone number for. Ireland is not in the list of country codes.

    https://signup.firstrade.com/create/www/?lc=en-us#/intro

    I contacted them via email and they confirmed that their policy changed re. Ireland last week.

    If you see a way around this let me know. I nearly opened the account last month, but held off at the time. Pretty frustrated now.

    That's a real bummer, they haven't been in contact re this so I'm presuming existing customers are OK. So it looks like none of the US brokers will accept Irish clients? I also have an account with IB but you cannot buy the US ETF's with them now either.


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    #290
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    robp wrote: »
    Any way to make a fake number online as a once off?

    Doubt it, you would probably have to falsify address as well, which wouldn't work with verification documentation etc.


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    #291
    dumb_parade
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭dumb_parade


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    That's a real bummer, they haven't been in contact re this so I'm presuming existing customers are OK. So it looks like none of the US brokers will accept Irish clients? I also have an account with IB but you cannot buy the US ETF's with them now either.

    Yeah, It is a bummer. I could go down the the fake number, fake address route, but that would fail when they look for photo id, i'd say. It will be interesting to see how existing irish firstrade clients will get on with this change. I know with Degiro, i can continue to hold any US etfs, but cant buy anymore units. Hope its not the same here.


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    #292
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    dumb_parade wrote: »
    Yeah, It is a bummer. I could go down the the fake number, fake address route, but that would fail when they look for photo id, i'd say. It will be interesting to see how existing irish firstrade clients will get on with this change. I know with Degiro, i can continue to hold any US etfs, but cant buy anymore units. Hope its not the same here.

    I've had no problem buying and selling, including ETFs, so far anyway. I'll post up if I hit any brick walls


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    #293
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    robp wrote: »
    Any way to make a fake number online as a once off?

    Doubt it, you would probably have to falsify address as well, which wouldn't work with verification documentation etc.
    Itd be handy to have a close relative in the States where you could live for a fortnight or so and get needed proof of addresses.
    On another note has anyone looked into non US trading accounts? Any Gulf or Asian companies out there?


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    #294
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    I've had no problem buying and selling, including ETFs, so far anyway. I'll post up if I hit any brick walls

    I'd imagine they will follow the same strat as the rest. Close off new clients and then block buying for Irish customers down the line allowing for a hold/sell.


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    #295
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    gavmcg92 wrote: »
    I'd imagine they will follow the same strat as the rest. Close off new clients and then block buying for Irish customers down the line allowing for a hold/sell.

    Good call gav, this is the email I got from Ameritrade this evening, expect Firstrade to follow suit.


    Dear Valued Client,

    Due to changes in the European Commission's regulatory requirements, TD Ameritrade is no longer able to offer certain products categorized as Packaged Retail Investment and Insurance Based Products (PRIIPS) to residents of the European Union and European Economic Area. Unfortunately, this means we will be restricting the trading of certain PRIIPs in your account ending in XXXX.

    As of November 12, you will be able to place opening orders in your account only for equities, options, and futures (provided you meet trading requirements).* If you have existing positions in products that will be restricted (such as exchange-traded funds [ETFs] and mutual funds), you may retain or close these positions, but you will no longer be able to open new positions in those products.

    We regret any inconvenience these required changes may cause you.


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    #296
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    Good call gav, this is the email I got from Ameritrade this evening, expect Firstrade to follow suit.

    Yeah, no surprises there.


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    #297
    Saudades
    Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Saudades


    Just speed-read through most of this topic.

    To the dozens or so posters here who opened US brokerage accounts in 2018 - First Trade seemingly being the most popular choice on here - how are you guys getting on two years later?

    And the million dollar question; Are you still able to purchase US domiciled ETF's?


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    #298
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Although I haven't manually bought anything in some time; I am still getting my automatic dividend reinvestment purchases from all my US domiciled ETFs as normal (and as recently as this month). I haven't received any communications from FirstTrade that anything has changed either.


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    #299
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    ronivek wrote: »
    Although I haven't manually bought anything in some time; I am still getting my automatic dividend reinvestment purchases from all my US domiciled ETFs as normal (and as recently as this month). I haven't received any communications from FirstTrade that anything has changed either.

    200w.webp?cid=ecf05e47pf2rvqoi72kou6i4zfk670hnh3eqb2a84b4cr63a&rid=200w.webp


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    #300
    salmagoo
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭salmagoo


    Just wondering has anyone been able or tried to invest US, EEA and other OECD domiciled ETFS to avoid this god awful 41% exit tax. Would anyone recommend one? TIA x

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-30930559.html


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    #301
    LC134
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭LC134


    I understand the attraction of US ETFs for Irish residents to avoid the deemed disposal rule, but I was wondering if Irish ETFs are attractive for someone who is non-Irish resident (or does deemed disposal also apply - I didn’t think so though).

    I’ve a small amount invested in a US dividend producing ETF but am not tax resident in a treaty country so am taxed 30% withholding on the dividends and I’m not yet sure on gains.

    I’ve a little understanding of Irish ETFs and thought as non-Irish resident I might be able to get dividends and gains gross so have started looking for UCITS ETFs on my brokerage account. Anyone who is non-Irish resident and might have looked at or have any experience with source tax deductions for an Irish ETF?

    Thanks


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