F1 2021 :Round 1 Bahrain

v3ttel · 29-03-2021 5:32pm

The issue is the greyness of this "lasting advantage" non-sense. They should make it clear. If you have all four wheels, outside the track, then it's two warnings and the next time it's a penalty.

Should you be able to overtake or complete an overtake outside the track? No, absolutely not. I think it was right that Max had to hand it back.

However anyone who takes the stance that Lewis didn't gain a lasting advantage by running well outside the track limits nearly 30 times is just not being genuine. Lewis would not have been out there so repeatedly if he wasn't deeming it to be the fastest line.

The issue is that Lewis has benefited from pushing the boundaries more than anyone else, yet has also benefited from his only rival being penalised for attempting to take the same racing line he did for 1/29 of the time he had the advantage of it. Lewis had the best of both worlds in a race that he won by the skin of his teeth.

Between the strategy, track limit issues and Max's diff issues, he was lucky to escape with the win. I just hope Mercedes don't rock up to Imola in 3 week's time well clear of Red Bull. We need a title fight.

Inquitus · 29-03-2021 5:33pm

v3ttel wrote: »

The issue is the greyness of this "lasting advantage" non-sense. They should make it clear. If you have all four wheels, outside the track, then it's two warnings and the next time it's a penalty.

Should you be able to overtake or complete an overtake outside the track? No, absolutely not. I think it was right that Max had to hand it back.

However anyone who takes the stance that Lewis didn't gain a lasting advantage by running well outside the track limits nearly 30 times is just not being genuine. Lewis would not have been out there so repeatedly if he wasn't deeming it to be the fastest line.

The issue is that Lewis has benefited from pushing the boundaries more than anyone else, yet has also benefited from his only rival being penalised for attempting to take the same racing line he did for 1/29 of the time he had the advantage of it. Lewis had the best of both worlds in a race that he won by the skin of his teeth.

Between the strategy, track limit issues and Max's diff issues, he was lucky to win it. I just hope Mercedes don't rock up to Imola in 3 week's time well clear of Red Bull. We need a title fight.

Lando said, after the race, that what he took from the race briefing was that turn 4 was fair game and would not be policed. Same was said by a couple of other drivers Will Buxton interviewed.

Gaoth Laidir · 29-03-2021 6:13pm

Inquitus wrote: »

Lando said, after the race, that what he took from the race briefing was that turn 4 was fair game and would not be policed. Same was said by a couple of other drivers Will Buxton interviewed.

Except that Masi said he had two people policing every car at that corner.

Inquitus · 29-03-2021 6:22pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Except that Masi said he had two people policing every car at that corner.

It seems that Masi and the FIA made a mess of this, from all the accounts I have read and heard, they just need to be much clearer in future so there is no ambiguity.

Gaoth Laidir · 29-03-2021 6:32pm

Inquitus wrote: »

It seems that Masi and the FIA made a mess of this, from all the accounts I have read and heard, they just need to be much clearer in future so there is no ambiguity.

Absolutely. It's like the VAR fiasco at times.

Burkie1203 · 29-03-2021 6:34pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Except that Masi said he had two people policing every car at that corner.

Must have been Toto and Crofty

Frank Bullitt · 29-03-2021 9:36pm

One thing that really ruined the race for me was Crofts stupid little giggle after every little joke Brundle tells...every.single.time.

29-03-2021 9:59pm

I must be the only one on this thread who likes Crofty.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cookie_Monster · 29-03-2021 10:35pm

Inquitus wrote: »

It seems that Masi and the FIA made a mess of this, from all the accounts I have read and heard, they just need to be much clearer in future so there is no ambiguity.

its not like it is even difficult. there is a white line at the edge of the track and a rule stating you must stay within it. Just enforce it everywhere all the time, no ambiguity. Its such a ****ing stupid problem to have

LollipopJimmy · 29-03-2021 10:37pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I must be the only one on this thread who likes Crofty.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Get out

29-03-2021 10:44pm

muckwarrior · 29-03-2021 11:24pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I must be the only one on this thread who likes Crofty.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

FYP

Killinator · 30-03-2021 5:39am

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1376501204415565832.html

Good piece on the whole turn 4 debacle

Burkie1203 · 30-03-2021 7:39am

Killinator wrote: »

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1376501204415565832.html

Good piece on the whole turn 4 debacle

Saw that but think Buxton nailed it much simpler.

If that wide line from Hamilton is fine when he is on his own, then its fine when he is being overtaken. Or else neither is fine.

Essentially Max took the same Racing Line Hamilton had been taking. And got punished for it simply by circumstance.

Gaoth Laidir · 30-03-2021 8:14am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Saw that but think Buxton nailed it much simpler.

If that wide line from Hamilton is fine when he is on his own, then its fine when he is being overtaken. Or else neither is fine.

Essentially Max took the same Racing Line Hamilton had been taking. And got punished for it simply by circumstance.

And he had already completed the pass and was well ahead of Lewis when he went off.

rock22 · 30-03-2021 8:22am

Faugheen wrote: »

Again. Mercedes were not allowed to ‘steal’ everything.

Every single team except Red Bull were doing this ‘at the discretion of the race director’. Then they decided to tell Max to start doing it.

Max then went off the track while overtaking therefore ‘gaining a lasting advantage’.

It really is that simple.

Perhaps you might explain it to Todd Wolff and Christian Horner because they say they don't understand

McFly85 · 30-03-2021 9:01am

Killinator wrote: »

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1376501204415565832.html

Good piece on the whole turn 4 debacle

This makes the whole thing a bit clearer to understand, and it boils down to LH taking the p*ss.

The stewards need to be clearer about “not monitoring track limits” in future.

flazio · 30-03-2021 9:17am

To me, the red/white kerb is perfect for measuring an "allowance" for grip degradation. Get an advantage by going well clear of the red white kerb then that's severe enough misdemeanor to warrant black and white flag. Unfortunately, because of the Sakhir layout you can't put any other kerbing or barriers out there.
So Lewis going well wide of the red white kerb is a penalty, as is Max if he overtook out there.

SureYWouldntYa · 30-03-2021 9:24am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I must be the only one on this thread who likes Crofty.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not the only one, never got the hate for him and people calling him out on calling things wrong but loved Murray Walker for the same thing

He had a line during the race about Nikita Mazepin being out of the race due to "suspected crashing out issues" which was fantastic

flazio · 30-03-2021 10:09am

It's his use of phrases like "the old switcheroo" and constantly leaning towards saying "they're going wheel to wheel" whenever any two drivers go side to side for position.
He makes F1 feel more like a tabloid readers sport.

Anjobe · 30-03-2021 10:19am

McFly85 wrote: »

This makes the whole thing a bit clearer to understand, and it boils down to LH taking the p*ss.

The stewards need to be clearer about “not monitoring track limits” in future.

Exploiting loopholes and ambiguity until they are closed/clarified is pretty much the norm in F1. I think the earlier comment about Race Control making a complete mess of defining and policing the track limits at T4 for the race is more to the point.

If this season is going to be as close as it appears right now and if Red Bull want to win, they need to be the ones pushing the limits and being reigned in by the stewards/FIA, not just complaining about Mercedes doing so. If it does remain close between Hamilton and Verstappen through the season it is probably going to get quite acrimonious. Here's hoping for a repeat of 1976.

30-03-2021 10:40am

Anjobe wrote: »

...........
If it does remain close between Hamilton and Verstappen through the season it is probably going to get quite acrimonious. Here's hoping for a repeat of 1976.

Off to Wiki I went

The 2013 film Rush is based on this season, focusing on the rivalry and friendship between James Hunt and Niki Lauda.

A film to add to my watch list.

flazio · 30-03-2021 11:50am

Not sure about repeating 76. Obviously we don't want either driver caught up in a horrific life changing crash, which Grosjean has reminded us all is still a distinct possibility. I suppose the closest we could get to putting someone on the back foot and missing races is a positive Covid test. But Lewis has already had it and will probably be vaccinated soon if he isn't already. So, I reckon maybe something like the early 2010s when Vettel just scraped at least one of his 4 championships.

Anjobe · 30-03-2021 12:25pm

flazio wrote: »

Not sure about repeating 76. Obviously we don't want either driver caught up in a horrific life changing crash, which Grosjean has reminded us all is still a distinct possibility. I suppose the closest we could get to putting someone on the back foot and missing races is a positive Covid test. But Lewis has already had it and will probably be vaccinated soon if he isn't already. So, I reckon maybe something like the early 2010s when Vettel just scraped at least one of his 4 championships.

Fair point, but I was thinking more of the direct rivalry, close racing, protests, appeals, serious dislike between the team principals, drama etc. Lauda's accident aside (sadly not unusual for the time), there has not been a season since to match it.

KevRossi · 31-03-2021 8:41am

Are we forgetting the Senna-Prost incidents, Hill-Schumacher, Villeneuve-Schumacher?

I don't think we have the personal animosity there just yet of the Senna-Prost years, but we might get it yet.

pjohnson · 31-03-2021 10:14am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Off to Wiki I went

A film to add to my watch list.

Rush is fantastic.

LollipopJimmy · 31-03-2021 10:19am

pjohnson wrote: »

Rush is fantastic.

Prefer Skerries myself

pjohnson · 31-03-2021 10:24am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Prefer Skerries myself

Burkie1203 · 31-03-2021 11:48pm

Lewis is so far wide he was nearly in Abu Dhabi

Vic_08 · 01-04-2021 2:05am

The current situation with track limits is just nonsense.

X,y,z corner is ok in practice session but not in quali and maybe part of the race but not for overtaking, all overseen and applied inconsistently by a bunch of fools on the fly who are being influenced by team bosses, drivers' radio messages and everybody else with access.

The solution is p!ss easy, just automate the whole thing. Map out all the corners where there is an advantage to be gained by running wide and put in sensors. Apply set penalties for infringements and have them applied automatically as soon as running wide is detected, no involvement of the stewards and no appeals.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-04-2021 9:50am

Vic_08 wrote: »

The current situation with track limits is just nonsense.

X,y,z corner is ok in practice session but not in quali and maybe part of the race but not for overtaking, all overseen and applied inconsistently by a bunch of fools on the fly who are being influenced by team bosses, drivers' radio messages and everybody else with access.

The solution is p!ss easy, just automate the whole thing. Map out all the corners where there is an advantage to be gained by running wide and put in sensors. Apply set penalties for infringements and have them applied automatically as soon as running wide is detected, no involvement of the stewards and no appeals.

They is definitely the solution. But don’t think that would make people happy. We’d have a few races before there would be lots of complaining about how times are being deleted and penalties applied for no reason. There would be the opposite call to let them race and they can sort it out between them.

Gaoth Laidir · 01-04-2021 9:52am

The current system is half working. There were two people monitoring Turn 4 on Sunday and did note the repeated infringements by Lewis, hence the warning. So it's not a question of detection, just consistency in application.

01-04-2021 3:51pm

Sausage bumps perpendicular to the track. If teams want to build a car strong enough to take a couple of hits then that would be simply a design decision for them.

vectra · 01-04-2021 6:08pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

The current situation with track limits is just nonsense.

X,y,z corner is ok in practice session but not in quali and maybe part of the race but not for overtaking, all overseen and applied inconsistently by a bunch of fools on the fly who are being influenced by team bosses, drivers' radio messages and everybody else with access.

The solution is p!ss easy, just automate the whole thing. Map out all the corners where there is an advantage to be gained by running wide and put in sensors. Apply set penalties for infringements and have them applied automatically as soon as running wide is detected, no involvement of the stewards and no appeals.

I often wondered that in todays technology, they should have some under track sensors of some sort that when a car goes wide it automatically limit the cars speed for five seconds or something.

flazio · 01-04-2021 7:11pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sausage bumps perpendicular to the track. If teams want to build a car strong enough to take a couple of hits then that would be simply a design decision for them.

Can't do that at turn 4 because it's a Y junction for the other layout they were using last year.

01-04-2021 7:22pm

flazio wrote: »

Can't do that at turn 4 because it's a Y junction for the other layout they were using last year.

Gatling guns then. :P

MadYaker · 01-04-2021 8:51pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Lewis is so far wide he was nearly in Abu Dhabi

How did it get to the point where the “racing line” is way outside the borders of the track as defined by the rules?

muckwarrior · 01-04-2021 9:23pm

vectra wrote: »

I often wondered that in todays technology, they should have some under track sensors of some sort that when a car goes wide it automatically limit the cars speed for five seconds or something.

That's a good idea. If they can do it at indoor karting tracks to stop people acting the bollox, then I'm sure F1 could manage it.

Charlie-Bravo · 01-04-2021 9:43pm

They have put sensors in at corners at places like Austria, Spa and Italy I think. When the detection occurs, stewards can review the footage of fixed cameras...they've done it before, so nothing new. If they know cars will run wide and gain any advantage, they need to monitor and sanction for going off.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/02/detection-loop-replaces-kerb-to-enforce-track-limits-at-two-corners/

Charlie-Bravo · 01-04-2021 11:47pm

I'll leave this here for the craic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpiPvOAJYpk

F1 2021 :Round 1 Bahrain

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