Accidental Landlord - tenant has over stayed

pc7 · 14-12-2018 1:08pm

Thanks for the updates OP, it is really soul destroying reading it, hope you get a resolution soon.

Samuel T. Cogley · 16-12-2018 10:00am

OP it would be really great if you'd (as you very kindly have) keep updating this thread. There isn't a week goes by without someone in A&P asking if it's a good idea to buy an investment property and it would be good to have some concrete information and somewhere to point them on how long everything takes should they end up with a deadbeat. Thanks fort your updates so far and I hope it works out for you.

Lizzie71 · 23-12-2018 8:41pm

I know this process can be long but its soul destroying the waiting and the financial difficulty ðŸ˜”. still waiting for the rtb letter to be sent to the tenants to say they have limited time to leave. Please let this get moving in the new year.

Under His Eye · 23-12-2018 8:46pm

My bet is she will force you into court to get an order to vacate. She will then suddenly have free legal aid to slow down the process.

These chancers know all the tricks.

BBFAN · 23-12-2018 10:50pm

Lizzie71 wrote: »

I know this process can be long but its soul destroying the waiting and the financial difficulty &#55357;&#56852;. still waiting for the rtb letter to be sent to the tenants to say they have limited time to leave. Please let this get moving in the new year.

This is horrific for you Lizzie, don't know how these people can sleep at night. Do they not realise you have to pay a mortgage?

I know it's useless to you at the moment but I hope you get a quick resolution in the end.

10pennymixup · 23-12-2018 11:28pm

Lizzie71 wrote: »

I know this process can be long but its soul destroying the waiting and the financial difficulty &#55357;&#56852;. still waiting for the rtb letter to be sent to the tenants to say they have limited time to leave. Please let this get moving in the new year.

Truly hope that it is "out with the old" for you in 2019.

Lizzie71 · 26-12-2018 4:00am

oh they both know all the tricks in the book and they will drag it out til the end. The bit thats annoying is without going into detail this person his job is a professional athlete and i could ho down the social media route, but not sure if it would do more harm then good.

duskyjoe · 26-12-2018 9:34am

same gig here too- my soc welfare ignored RTB determination order- ignored pre proceedings letter- will not engage. Basically squatting in my apartment that i need to sell. What you will see in the new year is a swade if evictions on foot of court orders. What’s worse is these tenant advise groups and certain well known left wing TD’s have advised people to over stay / don’t bother paying rent and put the squeeze on the local authorities to find gold star alternative accommodation. Tenants will only move if they are given a house etc close to mammy. In the mean time the landlords have de facto become the free housing association on behalf of the government. It’s a total mess with the “entitled” free loaders ruining it for honest fair social welfare / HAP tenants that landlords when they hear these stories are just running a mile from.

Evd-Burner · 26-12-2018 10:58am

I could understand and sympathize with the tenant if they were at least still paying rent. But by not paying rent I really do think they are the lowest of the low and there ought to be something to protect landlords in these kind of situations so they are not out of pocket.

It's hard out there at the moment, I don't know what I would do if I was being kicked out of my apartment and I had no where else to go with my kids. But I would definitely still pay the rent.

duskyjoe · 26-12-2018 12:46pm

the only thing u can do re tenants not paying rent is get a judgement order slapped on them. You won’t get your money back but what it does is ruin their credit rating for 12 years if they want a loan for a car etc.... or even something small.....they end up getting scammed by their own as in loan shark low ballers.

Watch the new year, the housing crisis is going to get really bad.....no amount of legislation can make landlords let to people they don’t want to and the carrot of €400 to letting agencies is not worth the ink it’s written on.

moby2101 · 26-12-2018 12:50pm

idnkph wrote: »

Set up a fake account on social media and name and shame?
Or put up signs outside the house that they are not paying rent?
I'd be publicly shaming these as much as possible. I wouldn't sleep with the effort I would put into that campaign

^^^^^
This ...agree 100%

@ Lizzie71, do everything to get this ass hats name out there. What a fffing scum bag.
I got burnt badly years ago renting a property like yourself.
Wish you all the best.
Definitely out this guy

Evd-Burner · 26-12-2018 1:48pm

duskyjoe wrote: »

the only thing u can do re tenants not paying rent is get a judgement order slapped on them. You won’t get your money back but what it does is ruin their credit rating for 12 years if they want a loan for a car etc.... or even something small.....they end up getting scammed by their own as in loan shark low ballers.

Watch the new year, the housing crisis is going to get really bad.....no amount of legislation can make landlords let to people they don’t want to and the carrot of €400 to letting agencies is not worth the ink it’s written on.[/QUOTE]

What carrot is that?

Under His Eye · 26-12-2018 2:00pm

I don't think court judgements will bother the determined overstayers.

dudara · 26-12-2018 2:02pm

idnkph wrote: »

Mod Snip

Don’t do this. It’s very poor advice. You run the risk of leaving yourself open to legal action and charges of harassment. Unfortunately you need to continue to pursue the correct legal channels.

jimd2 · 26-12-2018 3:01pm

Is there a routine that they have where they are out of the house for a while?

Would it be possible to change the locks and arrange storage where you can move their stuff to and have 2 nights pre booked for her and the kids at a local hotel? Once you have the stuff moved send her a message and tell her where you have booked the hotel and left her stuff.

People on here may say that is wrong / illegal etc but I think something like this is your only option. The RTB / courts will take an age and you or others in your family will get extremel stressed in the meantime.

I think if you do this her partner (if known) wont want to pursue through courts etc. I am sure he has a backup plan in his hip pocket but they are probably pocketing a rent allowance that is not being paid to you. You have gone through the notice etc.

Also, prepare a detailed, concise summary of what the process has been so far in case you are asked. Any normal people will side with you once the facts are made cear.

Evd-Burner · 26-12-2018 3:06pm

jimd2 wrote: »

Is there a routine that they have where they are out of the house for a while?

Would it be possible to change the locks and arrange storage where you can move their stuff to and have 2 nights pre booked for her and the kids at a local hotel? Once you have the stuff moved send her a message and tell her where you have booked the hotel and left her stuff.

People on here may say that is wrong / illegal etc but I think something like this is your only option. The RTB / courts will take an age and you or others in your family will get extremel stressed in the meantime.

I think if you do this her partner (if known) wont want to pursue through courts etc. I am sure he has a backup plan in his hip pocket but they are probably pocketing a rent allowance that is not being paid to you. You have gone through the notice etc.

Also, prepare a detailed, concise summary of what the process has been so far in case you are asked. Any normal people will side with you once the facts are made cear.

I'm no expert but I'm fairly sure this would leave the OP with a massive legal and compensation bill.

nuac · 26-12-2018 3:28pm

idnkph wrote: »

Mod Snip

Mod
Boards accepts no responsibility for any suggestions here, especially these

by8auj6csd3ioq · 27-12-2018 8:13pm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They generally do not.

And I know of cases where that has happened.

An overholding tenant comes home to a large agressive topless man drinking beer with his naked feet on the coffee table eating pizza and blaring heavy metal and indicates he is her new housemate.

She moved out immediately.

If she had gone to gardai he may have been prosecuted for intimidation or harrassment as may the landlord. Just because it gets a result does not mean it is legal

duskyjoe · 27-12-2018 8:57pm

Under His Eye wrote: »

I don't think court judgements will bother the determined overstayers.

a court judgement gives the landlord the right to evict the tenant.

Under His Eye · 27-12-2018 9:27pm

duskyjoe wrote: »

a court judgement gives the landlord the right to evict the tenant.

Only the sheriff can evict.

Lizzie71 · 14-01-2019 2:29am

So we are 5 months into this and RTB are still in the process this is soul destroying. The RTB are useless and we have no rights but someone can just live in our house rent free while we struggle to pay for them and our own ðŸ€¬ðŸ€¬ðŸ€¬

worded · 14-01-2019 2:43am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They generally do not.

And I know of cases where that has happened.

An overholding tenant comes home to a large agressive topless man drinking beer with his naked feet on the coffee table eating pizza and blaring heavy metal and indicates he is her new housemate.

She moved out immediately.

They are called professional “cuckoos” in Eastern Europe and can easily be hired there.

JustMe,K · 14-01-2019 11:53am

Lizzie71 wrote: »

So we are 5 months into this and RTB are still in the process this is soul destroying. The RTB are useless and we have no rights but someone can just live in our house rent free while we struggle to pay for them and our own &#55356;&#56364;&#55356;&#56364;&#55356;&#56364;

I really do feel for you. A friend of mine narrowly avoided a similar situation, and it caused a lot of anxiousness and many many sleepless nights.

duskyjoe · 14-01-2019 1:25pm

well i have tenant that i requested to vacate early last year as i have to sell (accidental landlord) the tenant has ignored all requests (HAP/Soc Wel) from my solicitor , ignored RTB letter of determination , ignored letter warning them the district court beckons , refuses to pay their rent and basically has told all and sundry to f off. This individual is costing me tens of thousands and it the behaviour of these type of tenants that has made landlords flee the market meaning less units to rent and leaving the decent tenants out there totally on a limb. In the mean time the dept of soc protection hides claiming they can’t discuss any details of the tenant under GDPR which is the greatest smoke screen to protect tenants. The situation is a total sham and disgrace and I warn fellow landlords this is what’s out there and what’s actually happening as there is a minority of tenants that believe they are entitled to freebies and handouts. They also believe that hardworking honest landlords that dipped their feet in the water re property investments are now the free housing association together with the government that don’t give a damn what’s actually happening in the real world .

TCM · 14-01-2019 2:15pm

Mr. Incognito wrote:

The Tenant is protected.

Mr. Incognito wrote:

However, it is still your house. You can move another Tenant in unless the Lease gives her exclusive occupation.

Mr. Incognito wrote:

I have had this difficulty in the past.

This is true. An excellent suggestion. Yes, you can move other people into the house. She won't be long moving out then. Do it immediately.

Graham · 14-01-2019 2:38pm

TCM wrote: »

An excellent suggestion.

How would that fit with

"allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling"

Mr. Incognito · 16-01-2019 11:48am

Sorry.

I have not responded for a while.

The lease will determine the dwelling.

Section 4 of the Act defines a dwelling.

dwelling” means, subject to subsection (2), a property let for rent or valuable consideration as a self-contained residential unit and includes any building or part of a building used as a dwelling and any out office, yard, garden or other land appurtenant to it or usually enjoyed with it and, where the context so admits, includes a property available for letting but excludes a structure that is not permanently attached to the ground and a vessel and a vehicle (whether mobile or not);

Key there is building or PART of a building. It is not true to say that evey rental of a house will grant you exclusive occupation of the entire house.

If that is the case people would not rent rooms in a house share as they would all be entitled to the entire. Of course the lease will have to be looked at to see if this argument can be grounded on the lease.

If it is a multi bedroomed house, and she has rented the property and has stopped paying rent a prudent landlord could seek to mitigate his losses by moving other renters into the additional rooms. Of course such renters would have to be robost individuals aware of the dispute.

If she has a difficulty with that she has a right of redress before the RTB. Adjudication subject to appeal and thereafter the Courts on a point of law. Equity requires you to come with clean hands and it is difficult to complain when you have not paid any rent in months and have not turned up to any hearings

What I do know for certainty is that I would rather be in the RTB saying that I moved in an additional tenant to avoid financial disaster and be faced with raising that argument as opposed to an unlawful eviction.

If the tenant could prove that the additional tenant who moved in was rather unhygenic for example it is a far stretch to prove that the landlord did this deliberately to "evict" the tenant.

Of Course this is all hypothetical, not legal advice and I am not advocating this approach. I am just aware of situations where it has been used.

What is not hypothetical is that the RTB is a disaster. It should at adjudication stage allow for vexatious claims to be dismissed and for orders for overholding tenants to be drawn up immediately subject to appeal to the High Court only.

This is required and would free up housing and bring private landlords back into the market away from Airbnb because they have zero protection at the moment.

Graham · 16-01-2019 12:16pm

Are you deliberately trying to confuse a house shared with a homeowner, and a tenancy?

The two are very different.

As the OP has stated they are pursuing a case via the RTB, it is safe to assume the RTB believe they have jurisdiction. i.e. this is not a licensee situation.

As such your suggestion that the OP moves someone else into the house is not only daft, it's dangerous.

Mr. Incognito · 16-01-2019 12:22pm

Graham wrote: »

Are you deliberately trying to confuse a house shared with a homeowner, and a tenancy?

The two are very different.

As the OP has stated they are pursuing a case via the RTB, it is safe to assume the RTB believe they have jurisdiction. i.e. this is not a licensee situation.

As such your suggestion that the OP moves someone else into the house is not only daft, it's dangerous.

I dont think you understand my post.

A Licence situation is not covered by the Act or the RTB.

It is possible to rent a room in a house as a tenant. It is possible to have similar tenants in other rooms. It happens in apartments and houses all over Dublin.

It is possible to rent a full house as a tenant.

The former is exclusive.

The latter is not.

The exclusivity is determined by the lease and evidence.

Before you go off in a tangent based on your own misunderstanding I think you should read the posts.

Graham · 16-01-2019 1:03pm

This is not a licensee situation so why are you determined to drag the thread off topic?

Mr. Incognito · 16-01-2019 1:28pm

Graham wrote: »

This is not a licensee situation so why are you determined to drag the thread off topic?

I have explained it twice. I am making no reference to a licence situation.

A Licence situation is where the Landlord is in occupation. The Landlord is not in occupation.

I really dont know why this is so difficult to understand for you. I again suggest you read the posts in their entire.

Lets try again.

Ann and Barry live in a House. Ann is the Landlord. Licence situation.

Sean rents a room in a house. Liam rents another room. The Landlord lives in another property. They are tenants. They have exlusive occupation of their rooms and the house. It is not exclusive to each other.

For clarity. I am not discussing a licence situation. You are dragging matters off topic with a fundamental misunderstanding of the distinction and I have no idea why you introduced it as a topic for discussion.

I really dont know how you do not understand the distinction between mutual tenancy and sole tenancy. Mutual tenants can still enjoy exclusive occupation.

Baby01032012 · 16-01-2019 4:40pm

Mr. Incognito - I dont know why you posted about mutual tenancy/tenants renting rooms, there is no mention by OP that this was case, it was fairly safe to assume this was as is the majority of the lettings the whole house of which the tenant would have exclusive use and right to peaceful enjoyment. So suggestions that there is any right to put an additional tenant in there would amount to the OP breaching the lease. The OP is in a bad enough situation without adding to their troubles.

Mr. Incognito · 16-01-2019 11:22pm

Im absolutely not advising it

Lizzie71 · 21-01-2019 2:04pm

Received letter from RTB that Determination order is issued, light at the end of the tunnel.

godtabh · 21-01-2019 3:59pm

Lizzie71 wrote: »

Received letter from RTB that Determination order is issued, light at the end of the tunnel.

Not really. They could ignore it and you are faced with a trip to court.

martyoo · 21-01-2019 4:27pm

I'd imagine this thread is an eye opener for a lot of people. The reality is that there are some bad landlords along with some bad tenants and currently the law doesn't protect from either.

duskyjoe · 21-01-2019 5:04pm

Lizzie71 wrote: »

Received letter from RTB that Determination order is issued, light at the end of the tunnel.

hate to be a dampener- the RTB determination order is a process that most tenants that have gone this far will ignore. The RTB is utterly toothless and buys the tenant time to think about their actions..... In in the same boat and the determination order just gives me the ability to go to court. Even when you get a court order, this means zero until the courty sheriff is in receipt of same - in the mean time the landlord will be out thousands in rent, damage to their unit, legal fees, sherrifs fees etc. Chasing these low life tenants for lost rent is fruitless as well as judgement order against them is laughable ...... just be warned everyone that is an honest landlord , that tenants have 80% of the leverage in the system. The system totally favors the tenant to the detriment of the honest landlords. All I know is private honest landlords are fleeing the system and selling up re reading horror stories as in here. I am trying to sell an apartment over a year plus and the tenant won’t leave irrespective of any legal order and will only go when turned out onto the street by the sherif.....they then move onto their next victim landlord and we wonder why we have a housing problem as no landlord will let to a tenant unless they know them or they are in a top job which utterly discrimates against the honest hardworking tenants that are in the lower social strata all because the bad apples out there who believe they are entitled to screw the system are ruining it for everybody

beauf · 21-01-2019 6:39pm

martyoo wrote: »

I'd imagine this thread is an eye opener for a lot of people. The reality is that there are some bad landlords along with some bad tenants and currently the law doesn't protect from either.

I doubt its news to anyone.

There are lots of laws to protect you from bad landlords and there's been loads of new ones over the past decade or so. More due aswell.

https://www.newstalk.com/Landlords-to-face-30000-fine-for-illegal-rent-increases-under-new-laws

I don't think there have any new ones to protect you against bad tenants. But I'm open to correction.

Besides which the issue isn't the law. Its the length of time and cost to bring resolution, and restitution.

Evd-Burner · 21-01-2019 6:51pm

beauf wrote: »

I doubt its news to anyone.

There are lots of laws to protect you from bad landlords and there's been loads of new ones over the past decade or so. More due aswell.

https://www.newstalk.com/Landlords-to-face-30000-fine-for-illegal-rent-increases-under-new-laws

I don't think there have any new ones to protect you against bad tenants. But I'm open to correction.

Besides which the issue isn't the law. Its the length of time and cost to bring resolution, and restitution.

To be honest I see a lot of those laws having a negative effect and pushing normal landlords out of the market because they are too afraid. Which then just compounds the problem even further!

21-01-2019 7:04pm

OP
I skipped from page 4 or 5, as I didnt see advice of start eviction, dont bother with local papers etc, just do official formal stuff and keep any records of contacts etc, you need the person out and Id get that eviction ball rolling before the law changes.

Start the eviction process,

If you dont know how to do that, look it up on RTB, Im sure its still there, ring them and ask for advice if need be, but if still dont know, engage a solicitor and start the clock now.
End of, youve done this person favours to your own detriment, you should not have, it might have been better to be rid of them sooner if they couldnt manage the rent or there was any hint of problems, that is done now, start the eviction process, if you are seen not to be serious then your intentions mean nothing.

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-01-2019 7:07pm

Evd-Burner wrote: »

To be honest I see a lot of those laws having a negative effect and pushing normal landlords out of the market because they are too afraid. Which then just compounds the problem even further!

I'm gone in June when the AirBnB laws come in to full force. The chances of a rogue tenant are pretty small but you get one and you're down tens of thousands in the current climate. I'll take the capital loss and get rid of the headache.

This is all assuming Mrs Cogley agrees ofc.

the_syco · 21-01-2019 7:17pm

Lizzie71 wrote: »

I forgot to say she is "separated" which I know is not true but none of my business as long as she is paying the rent so she is claiming to be a lone parent with 2 kids one of which was born after they broke up.

Report her for anything you want. If the fella is living with her, let them know he lives there. Let her know that if she's not leaving, you'll go out of your way to drain her "income".

Lizzie71 · 06-05-2019 1:58am

Just an update we got a court date for this month, fingers crossed.

rawn · 06-05-2019 2:00am

Lizzie71 wrote: »

Just an update we got a court date for this month, fingers crossed.

She's still there??! Jaysus

DesperateDan · 06-05-2019 4:19am

Wow read the whole lot I am gobsmacked people can do this.

I think I personally would have called this person's bluff; physically removed them and faced the consequences purely on principle, even if it put me in debt for a couple of years.

But congratulations on keeping everything above board, not much else they can do now. I wonder if the tenant knows their time is up are they more likely to trash the place tho, for no reason other than spitefulness. I hope you are inspecting the property as often as you legally can.

Best of luck OP

Busterie · 06-05-2019 7:38am

You are wasting your time with the RTB they exist only to harass landlords

duskyjoe · 06-05-2019 8:23am

so sorry to hear OP. I eventually got my tenant out of my apartment when a date was set for court. Needless to say the apartment was thrashed and together with lost rent etc the experience cost me over €20k re legal fees , lost rent and renovation of unit. Got a buyer now.
Re the RTB, they are very handy at issuing fines to landlords but are utterly toothless re imposing a thing but determination orders on tenants which is just a piece of paper stating you may now enter the legal process. It really is a kick the can down the road process to give the tenant more time to cogitate their position. Private landlord renting game in this country is now for mugs and only the corporates that pay low tax can play this game.
When the likes of left wing TDs , Threshold etc hold landlord in utter contempt believing that they should bail non performing tenants out and that landlords have no property rights to sell , you know it’s time to get the hell out of the property market

soups05 · 07-05-2019 6:58pm

just curious, but the tenant seems to have a good income from the op's posts. after eviction, could the op sue for the unpaid rent, any damage etc?

rightmove · 08-05-2019 10:36am

Tenant being on the hook via the rtb....like rain in the sahara

Claw Hammer · 08-05-2019 10:39am

soups05 wrote: »

just curious, but the tenant seems to have a good income from the op's posts. after eviction, could the op sue for the unpaid rent, any damage etc?

The enforcement of the determination order will give judgement against the tenant for the amount of rent plus costs. If the tenant can be found, they can be pursued for it. Very few landlords have ever succeeded in getting money from a former tenant.

Accidental Landlord - tenant has over stayed

Comments