Social contradiction on how we treat animals

gozunda · 10-09-2018 2:09pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Edinburgh

Scribbles on a wall are an argument for ?

I think you will find that hospitals admit all types of people - including vegans suffering from cancer, diabetes (type 1 & 2), heart disease etc etc

As for Kwashiorkor (protein deficiency) it's not really a condition for joking around or for the purpose of agenda pushing is it?

See: https://www.healthline.com/health/kwashiorkor

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 3:22pm

Lady Haywire wrote: »

What exactly have these to do with the thread title?

It's another failure of logic, perhaps, another contradiction of logic.

gozunda · 10-09-2018 3:33pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

It's another failure of logic, perhaps, another contradiction of logic.

Whose 'failure / contradiction of logic?

One is a bizarre reference to illness & hospital and the other is a rather bizarre graph showing a foodstuff (bacon) compared with a diet / lifestyle (vegan)

From the thread title - I think we are discussing whether there are any 'social contradictions' how people treat animals' and whether or not - some graph shows something or other in terms of search results is neither here nor there

So nope don't see any relevance there tbh...

ganmo · 10-09-2018 3:39pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

It's another failure of logic, perhaps, another contradiction of logic.

right lets go through the claim and how they relate to society's treatment of animals

Heart disease - Age, Sex Genetics, Smoking
Diabetes - Type 1 purely genetic, type 2 sugar intake
Obesity - calorie intake vs exercise
Cancer - genetics, sun exposure, smoking, radiation, viruses, bacteria, alcohol

where diet does come into the listed diseases(except diabetes) its excessive intake of everything.

now tell me again how that post relates to the thread?

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 3:47pm

ganmo wrote: »

right lets go through the claim and how they relate to society's treatment of animals

Heart disease - Age, Sex Genetics, Smoking
Diabetes - Type 1 purely genetic, type 2 sugar intake
Obesity - calorie intake vs exercise
Cancer - genetics, sun exposure, smoking, radiation, viruses, bacteria, alcohol

where diet does come into the listed diseases(except diabetes) its excessive intake of everything.

now tell me again how that post relates to the thread?

Hang on, you seem to be saying that meat and dairy consumption have nothing to do with hospitals filled with people with the above ailments.

emaherx · 10-09-2018 3:49pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Google trends

Most people who eat bacon don't Google it

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=McDonalds,Vegan

ganmo · 10-09-2018 3:53pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Hang on, you seem to be saying that meat and dairy consumption have nothing to do with hospitals filled with people with the above ailments.

compared to other risk factors yes

take diabetes for example. an addition 150 calories from all sources rose the risk 0.1% where the 150 came from sugar it rose the risk 1%

I've actually never heard of meat being a factor in diabetes

gozunda · 10-09-2018 3:54pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Hang on, you seem to be saying that meat and dairy consumption have nothing to do with hospitals filled with people with the above ailments.

I think you are going waaaay of topic there....

Are you saying that the small percentage of vegans that exist don't get cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc or or that those that do - arn't being treated in hospital??

Vegans can have unhealthy diets - A junkfood diet of doughnuts and coke etc could be vegan but wouldn't be good for you either ..

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 3:59pm

ganmo wrote: »

compared to other risk factors yes

take diabetes for example. an addition 150 calories from all sources rose the risk 0.1% where the 150 came from sugar it rose the risk 1%

I've actually never heard of meat being a factor in diabetes

Yes, diabetes is primarily associated with excessive glucose consumption. But you seem to be saying that meat and dairy has nothing to do with all the other leading causes of death. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

gozunda · 10-09-2018 4:03pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes, diabetes is primarily associated with excessive glucose consumption. But you seem to be saying that meat and dairy has nothing to do with all the other leading causes of death. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

Wrong. type 1 and type 2 diabetes are not the same condition and are not linked by 'excessive glucose consumption' (sic)

Just because a person goes to hospital does not mean they at deaths door either ... I think you are
conflabulating your opinions on things being bad, treatment in hospital and dying.

emaherx · 10-09-2018 4:15pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Hang on, you seem to be saying that meat and dairy consumption have nothing to do with hospitals filled with people with the above ailments.

Hmm hospitals full of sick people who eat meat, because most people eat meat?

An unhealthy Vegan Diet can also lead to heart disease just like an unhealthy diet which has meat/dairy.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/some-types-of-vegetarian-diet-can-raise-heart-disease-risk/

ganmo · 10-09-2018 4:16pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes, diabetes is primarily associated with excessive glucose consumption. But you seem to be saying that meat and dairy has nothing to do with all the other leading causes of death. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

ganmo wrote: »

compared to other risk factors yes

take diabetes for example. an addition 150 calories from all sources rose the risk 0.1% where the 150 came from sugar it rose the risk 1%

I've actually never heard of meat being a factor in diabetes

how much of an impact do you say meat has on diabetes ?

Google "risk factors" and any of the diseases come back when you found a ranked list that says meat on it

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 4:23pm

ganmo wrote: »

how much of an impact do you say meat has on diabetes ?

I'm not a statistician or medical researcher, so I can't say. Why do you ask?

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 4:27pm

emaherx wrote: »

An unhealthy Vegan Diet can also lead to heart disease just like an unhealthy diet which has meat/dairy.

I agree entirely.

ganmo · 10-09-2018 4:28pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I'm not a statistician or medical researcher, so I can't say. Why do you ask?

because you seem to think there is a link and I say there isn't

btw I'm not a medical researcher either but i know how to use google scholar

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 4:32pm

ganmo wrote: »

because you seem to think there is a link and I say there isn't

I've never stated there is a link between meat and diabetes, though I'd have an open mind about it. Where did I say it?

gozunda · 10-09-2018 4:34pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I agree entirely.

So you agree that vegans can and do end up in hospitals for treatment of various conditions- lifestyle and otherwise?

This makes for an interesting read ...

https://www.nutritionadvance.com/vegan-propaganda-and-meat/

ganmo · 10-09-2018 4:40pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I've never stated there is a link between meat and diabetes, though I'd have an open mind about it. Where did I say it?

I didn't say you said it, i said you seem to think...

why I think this? you thanked post #97
and

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes, diabetes is primarily associated with excessive glucose consumption. But you seem to be saying that meat and dairy has nothing to do with all the other leading causes of death. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 4:47pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I've never stated there is a link between meat and diabetes, though I'd have an open mind about it. Where did I say it?

ganmo wrote: »

I didn't say you said it, i said you seem to think...

why I think this? you thanked post #97

Gosh, you're reading a hell of a lot in a simple thanked post.

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 4:49pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes, diabetes is primarily associated with excessive glucose consumption.

Just my usual cautious self.

davidjtaylor wrote: »

But you seem to be saying that meat and dairy has nothing to do with all the other leading causes of death.

I might be reading too much in your posts but you never answered that.

ganmo · 10-09-2018 4:55pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Gosh, you're reading a hell of a lot in a simple thanked post.

it wasn't too long ago a mod on this forum warned against thanking posts, might even be on this thread

ganmo · 10-09-2018 4:56pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Just my usual cautious self.

I might be reading too much in your posts but you never answered that.

for the third time

ganmo wrote: »

compared to other risk factors yes

take diabetes for example. an addition 150 calories from all sources rose the risk 0.1% where the 150 came from sugar it rose the risk 1%

I've actually never heard of meat being a factor in diabetes

davidjtaylor · 10-09-2018 5:09pm

ganmo wrote: »

it wasn't too long ago a mod on this forum warned against thanking posts, might even be on this thread

I didn't see that, sorry. I was just thanking a poster for linking to an image relevant to veganism.

Nekarsulm · 10-09-2018 6:03pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I didn't see that, sorry. I was just thanking a poster for linking to an image relevant to veganism.

I fail to see what grafitti on a Scottish wall has to do with keeping a pet, versus rausing an animal for food.

Nekarsulm · 10-09-2018 6:03pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I didn't see that, sorry. I was just thanking a poster for linking to an image relevant to veganism.

I fail to see what a photo of grafitti on a Scottish wall has to do with keeping a pet, versus rausing an animal for food.

10-09-2018 11:23pm

I suppose this is the kind of contradiction that we see many examples of yearly -

Dog rescued after plunging 80ft down mineshaft in Ceredigion http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45402874

gozunda · 11-09-2018 1:21am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suppose this is the kind of contradiction that we see many examples of yearly -

Dog rescued after plunging 80ft down mineshaft in Ceredigion http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45402874

What would you like - for the animal to be left there? Really? Even livestock are rescued from such situations.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cows-plunge-30ft-down-mine-8464182

No contradiction except that which is in your mind imo.

Tbh it's an old hoary chestnut and a failed argument at this stage ...

11-09-2018 9:28am

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I didn't see that, sorry. I was just thanking a poster for linking to an image relevant to veganism.

No need to apologise.

I think I remember it was about people thanking posts that were recipes containing meat or something similar as an ingredient.

So I think it was about thanking posts that were obviously trolling.

It was along those lines anyway iirc.

davidjtaylor · 11-09-2018 9:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

No need to apologise.

I think I remember it was about people thanking posts that were recipes containing meat or something similar as an ingredient.

So I think it was about thanking posts that were obviously trolling.

It was along those lines anyway iirc.

Right. I suppose even trolls like a bit of backscratching!

BrokenArrows · 11-09-2018 10:09am

From the social aspect of what we kill for food compared to keep for a pet its all down to what we consider to be beautiful.

Dog, Cat, Horse etc = Cute or Beautiful = Pet
Pig, Cow, Fish etc = Animal/unattractive = Food.
Rats, Mice etc = Dirty, ugly = kill it for no particular purpose.

The majority of Vegetarians are happy to eat Fish because they see them as ugly, not cute, stupid and strangely they are killed in the worst most inhumane way possible, by slow suffocation by the millions.

11-09-2018 10:37am

BrokenArrows wrote: »

From the social aspect of what we kill for food compared to keep for a pet its all down to what we consider to be beautiful.

Dog, Cat, Horse etc = Cute or Beautiful = Pet
Pig, Cow, Fish etc = Animal/unattractive = Food.
Rats, Mice etc = Dirty, ugly = kill it for no particular purpose.

The majority of Vegetarians are happy to eat Fish because they see them as ugly, not cute, stupid and strangely they are killed in the worst most inhumane way possible, by slow suffocation by the millions.

Horse is eaten without a second thought in plenty of countries - Poland, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Indonesia and China to name a few.

Cow is not eaten by Hindus so large parts of India don’t consume cow.

Pork is prohibited by Islamic law so that’s a lot in the Middle East that don’t consume pig.

Jews don’t eat pig either so that’s quite a few people too.

Cats and dogs are seen as food in China, South Korea, Vietnam, Laos and a few other countries I can’t remember.

emaherx · 11-09-2018 10:40am

BrokenArrows wrote: »

From the social aspect of what we kill for food compared to keep for a pet its all down to what we consider to be beautiful.

Dog, Cat, Horse etc = Cute or Beautiful = Pet
Pig, Cow, Fish etc = Animal/unattractive = Food.
Rats, Mice etc = Dirty, ugly = kill it for no particular purpose.

The majority of Vegetarians are happy to eat Fish because they see them as ugly, not cute, stupid and strangely they are killed in the worst most inhumane way possible, by slow suffocation by the millions.

Horse is often eaten. Quite widely worldwide, only reason most don't make it to food chain after there life in recreational use is the use of bute. Only reason there was a horse meat scandal was untraceablity of source and blatent false advertisement.

Rats/mice spread disease by peeing on your food, maybe you would like a world where they are not controlled?

_Brian · 11-09-2018 10:43am

BrokenArrows wrote: »

From the social aspect of what we kill for food compared to keep for a pet its all down to what we consider to be beautiful.

Dog, Cat, Horse etc = Cute or Beautiful = Pet
Pig, Cow, Fish etc = Animal/unattractive = Food.
Rats, Mice etc = Dirty, ugly = kill it for no particular purpose.

The majority of Vegetarians are happy to eat Fish because they see them as ugly, not cute, stupid and strangely they are killed in the worst most inhumane way possible, by slow suffocation by the millions.

I'd have to disagree with much of that..
We keep cattle and farmers can really appreciate the proper breeding in an animal, its conformation and stature, but still consider it both a good specimen of an animal and food.. Farmers like their animals, some still name them, but keep the objective view of their eventual purpose.

Our pigs which we keep for the table are cute as hell when they arrive 10-12 weeks old, less cute now that they are 50kg but good fun to be around and each has its own charactor, but there's no doubt even with our kids that they are destined for the table..

My youngest daughter spends plenty of time with her chickens, naming them and knows each from the other, what age they are etc, but the are accepted as both pet and food source..

Take dogs, some are horrid looking some are nice, the only reason I don't consider them food is after eating it I'd consider it low grade meat and no way satisfactory feeding..

I love the look of a nice white piece fo fish, battered and golden on the outside, but I hate the taste and so don't ever eat it..

gozunda · 11-09-2018 10:47am

BrokenArrows wrote: »

From the social aspect of what we kill for food compared to keep for a pet its all down to what we consider to be beautiful.

Dog, Cat, Horse etc = Cute or Beautiful = Pet
Pig, Cow, Fish etc = Animal/unattractive = Food.
Rats, Mice etc = Dirty, ugly = kill it for no particular purpose.

The majority of Vegetarians are happy to eat Fish because they see them as ugly, not cute, stupid and strangely they are killed in the worst most inhumane way possible, by slow suffocation by the millions.

I would disagree with that summary

Dog, Cat, Horse etc = animals which have unique qualities and abilities which historically have made valuable contribributions to human society. e.g. dogs for hunting. Cats for vermin control horses for transport. Also companion animals such as dogs and cats easily house trained etc

Pig, Cow, Fish etc - traditional hunted species which formed part of human diet going back two million years long before agriculture ..

Rats, Mice etc = animals which cause significant danger to human based foodstuffs and are known vectors of communicable diseases.

Tbh there a lots of "pretty' cows, pigs and and even even rats which could be called cute. So the level of attractiveness has very little to do with what humans eat or dont eat.

Making sweeping statements that vegetarians eat something such as fish because they not 'cute' is farcical.

Vegetarians dont eat fish - pescatarians do!

Edit: _Brian you bet me to it

_Brian · 11-09-2018 10:51am

gozunda wrote: »

pescatarians

i had to google that

BrokenArrows · 11-09-2018 12:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Horse is eaten without a second thought in plenty of countries - Poland, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Indonesia and China to name a few.

Cow is not eaten by Hindus so large parts of India don’t consume cow.

Pork is prohibited by Islamic law so that’s a lot in the Middle East that don’t consume pig.

Jews don’t eat pig either so that’s quite a few people too.

Cats and dogs are seen as food in China, South Korea, Vietnam, Laos and a few other countries I can’t remember.

Yes of course there are diet variations around the world, in Asia insects can be eaten without a second thought.

Im talking about it from an Irish perspective.

_Brian · 11-09-2018 1:02pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Yes of course there are diet variations around the world, in Asia insects can be eaten without a second thought.

Im talking about it from an Irish perspective.

Can’t accept that cows = ugly = this justifies eating them.

Here’s an Irish Moiled heifer, nothing short of a stunning looking animal, these spectacular animals produce marvellous beef.

http://blog.agriimages.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/cv14mol-3142.jpg

BrokenArrows · 11-09-2018 2:30pm

_Brian wrote: »

Can’t accept that cows = ugly = this justifies eating them.

Here’s an Irish Moiled heifer, nothing short of a stunning looking animal, these spectacular animals produce marvellous beef.

http://blog.agriimages.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/cv14mol-3142.jpg

Agree to disagree on that one.

ganmo · 11-09-2018 2:36pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Agree to disagree on that one.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder

21-09-2018 3:59am

More pretend outrage from the public -

Australia emu video investigated for 'horrific cruelty' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45596870

gozunda · 21-09-2018 6:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

More pretend outrage from the public -

Australia emu video investigated for 'horrific cruelty' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45596870

Don't see what's 'pretend' about tbh.

The police and the RSPCA dont make it 'public' btw. And if by 'pretend outrage - do you mean are in agreement / following the law? Yes they are - but then that's not pretend outrage either ...

You can't legislate for some crazy. Australians.

Seriously I hope the guy is dealt with properly ...

gozunda · 22-09-2018 2:24am

Came across these two lovely news stories of a cow and a dog being rescued in seperate incidents after falling from cliffs in Devon and Cornwall. Just more examples of parity of rescue efforts for both farm and domestic pets ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-devon-45357436

https://www.piratefm.co.uk/news/latest-news/2676829/dog-survives-fall-from-highest-cliffs-in-cornwall/

JeffKenna · 22-09-2018 2:43am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do the people who get enraged by a woman throwing a cat into a bin - https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/19/cat-bin-woman-mary-bale - not understand what happens to animals for the provision of their meat and dairy ?

I think its you that doesn't understand what happens to animals for the provision of meat and dairy.

22-09-2018 4:10am

JeffKenna wrote: »

I think its you that doesn't understand what happens to animals for the provision of meat and dairy.

I understand it perfectly well and that’s why I advocate cruelty free food.

the_syco · 22-09-2018 7:07am

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Yes of course there are diet variations around the world, in Asia insects can be eaten without a second thought.

Im talking about it from an Irish perspective.

I'm noticing a few places are bringing in eating insects as a healthier option.

davidjtaylor · 22-09-2018 10:56am

JeffKenna wrote: »

I think its you that doesn't understand what happens to animals for the provision of meat and dairy.

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand it perfectly well and that’s why I advocate cruelty free food.

JeffKenna's post comes across as a bit strange for one posted on an veg*n forum.

:D

davidjtaylor · 22-09-2018 10:56am

the_syco wrote: »

I'm noticing a few places are bringing in eating insects as a healthier option.

In Ireland?

gozunda · 22-09-2018 11:51am

davidjtaylor wrote: »

JeffKenna's post comes across as a bit strange for one posted on an veg*n forum.

I don't think that's correct - strangely there's probably more threads with comments here about meat, dairy and animal farming than most other forums.

Plus 'cruelty free food' is an oxymoron - where 'cruelty' defined by some includes the death of animals and organisms. It remains all food producion involves the death of other organisms and animals. A lot of it is deliberate as well such as the spraying of pesticides. It matters little to the dead bunny or whatever which is killed during cultivation that its death might or might not have been 'unintentional'. All that needs to be recognised tbh.

If anything that's the single biggest glaring contradiction - whether anyone acknowledges it or otherwise imo.

gozunda · 22-09-2018 12:20pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

In Ireland?

Two that I've came across are popup restaurant and a company set up in the last couple of years

http://www.thejournal.ie/hexafly-alvan-hunt-2-3726027-Nov2017/

https://www.rentokil.ie/pestaurant/.

JeffKenna · 22-09-2018 1:08pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I understand it perfectly well and that’s why I advocate cruelty free food.

Do you also feel as strongly about cruelty free clothing? I presume you don't purchase anything from primark, Nike etc considering the quality of life of animals in Ireland is far superior to that of the 6 year old child making those clothes.

Social contradiction on how we treat animals

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