Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

Former Former · 17-12-2018 5:04pm

Ryan is/was nailed on. Absolutely.

I think it's great having Toner and Henderson going nip and tuck; I think it was spurring them both on and that's great for all concerned, so this is a kick in the nads from that perspective. Henderson was immense at the weekend.

Still, it means we'll probably get a decent look at Beirne and hopefully find out what he's really made of so not a total bust.

stephen_n · 17-12-2018 5:04pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Ah, I watched both legs of Ulster, Munster and Leinster's HEC games. Maybe comfortably is an overstatement, but I think Iain's been better. Certainly the week before last, he was, and he was something else at the weekend.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a provincial second row bunfight (again). That's my opinion.

Different players, who bring different strengths to the team. Don’t think it is possible to really divide and say one is clearly better than the other. It will very much depend on what Joe et al want in any given game. The arrival of Ryan and also Fardy has made Toner really up his game. He will never match Henderson’s dynamic strength though.

troyzer · 17-12-2018 5:14pm

Ryan is a lock (pardon the pun).

Toner has been magnificent but so has Henderson. It's horses for courses between them but I think Toner gets the edge on his utter dominance in the lineout. Both are better than Beirne.

Faugheen · 17-12-2018 6:41pm

Think people aren't giving Quinn Roux enough credit here.

Beirne is a great player, but as I've pointed out before he doesn't do enough of the bread and butter that you want from a lock for me. Roux was very good in the AIs and to be fair, barely ever puts a foot wrong for Ireland when called upon.

He's also a line-out caller, which will give him an edge over Beirne.

I could be wrong and, to be honest, I won't really mind if I am, but I reckon the only way Beirne gets near the 23 is if Ryan goes down.

stephen_n · 17-12-2018 6:45pm

Not 100% but pretty sure Beirne calls the line out too. Too small a sample so far to say who is better on the pitch at international level. But as a 4th choice lock in a limited squad, Beirne will get it every time as he covers 6.

Faugheen · 17-12-2018 6:45pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Not 100% but pretty sure Beirne calls the line out too. Too small a sample so far to say who is better on the pitch at international level. But as a 4th choice lock in a limited squad, Beirne will get it every time as he covers 6.

Not for Ireland he hasn't. Roux has

stephen_n · 17-12-2018 6:52pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Not for Ireland he hasn't. Roux has

Yeah but you’re saying it gives him an edge over Beirne, it
Doesn’t really if they both do it. It’s not like Ryan who doesn’t do it at all.

Faugheen · 17-12-2018 6:58pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Yeah but you’re saying it gives him an edge over Beirne, it
Doesn’t really if they both do it. It’s not like Ryan who doesn’t do it at all.

Except it could well give him an edge if you're looking for someone who has called line-outs for Ireland.

Roux and Beirne were both on the pitch against Italy, and Roux was the one calling the lineouts, as he has done a number of times for Ireland.

For all I know, Beirne could be Henderson's replacement, and I would be perfectly fine with that, I just wouldn't be at all surprised if Roux gets the call on the basis that he has been a lineout caller for Ireland and has played well when called upon.

Dubinusa · 17-12-2018 7:17pm

Not a good outlook for the 6nations. Henderson has been immense! His strength is unreal.
Beirne and Roux will obviously get a look now. I think Roux will get the 19 shirt against England. Purely based on his scrummaging and line out calls.

awec · 17-12-2018 7:26pm

Beirne has like 4 caps and less than 1 season with Ireland. The fact he hasn't called a line out is unsurprising, and not really indicative of his ability to do so. O'Connell called the line out even when line out specialist Toner was playing, it really means nothing.

Wegians89 · 17-12-2018 7:30pm

awec wrote: »

Beirne has like 4 caps and less than 1 season with Ireland. The fact he hasn't called a line out is unsurprising, and not really indicative of his ability to do so. O'Connell called the line out even when line out specialist Toner was playing, it really means nothing.

O’Connell is a line out coach, don’t think he was too bad at it

awec · 17-12-2018 7:32pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

O’Connell is a line out coach, don’t think he was too bad at it

He wasn't bad at it at all. I am just saying, it's all a bit irrelevant.

A player with ~4 caps not having called a line out means feck all. Roux calling line outs means nothing (consider the sort of teams Roux typically plays against).

It all depends on who else is playing, etc etc.

Wegians89 · 17-12-2018 7:45pm

awec wrote: »

He wasn't bad at it at all. I am just saying, it's all a bit irrelevant.

A player with ~4 caps not having called a line out means feck all. Roux calling line outs means nothing (consider the sort of teams Roux typically plays against).

It all depends on who else is playing, etc etc.

I’d consider linout calling as important a skill as place kicking. Yeah you can pick a team where no one is a specialist but your chances of winning will decrease a huge amount

The Lost Sheep · 17-12-2018 7:59pm

awec wrote: »

Beirne has like 4 caps and less than 1 season with Ireland. The fact he hasn't called a line out is unsurprising, and not really indicative of his ability to do so. O'Connell called the line out even when line out specialist Toner was playing, it really means nothing.

O Connell was a top class line out operator. I wouldnt say at all that it means nothing.

Wegians89 wrote: »

I’d consider linout calling as important a skill as place kicking. Yeah you can pick a team where no one is a specialist but your chances of winning will decrease a huge amount

I wouldnt go that far.

17-12-2018 8:22pm

I was always thought line out calling was overstated but then again Toner playing for Ireland recently made a huge difference. I think some of it is conincidence tbh but that's impossible to prove. Sample size is too small.

roverjoyce · 17-12-2018 8:23pm

Why were Ireland nominated for Team of the Year last night at the BBC SPOTY?

bilston · 17-12-2018 8:27pm

roverjoyce wrote: »

Why were Ireland nominated for Team of the Year last night at the BBC SPOTY?

Because they had an incredibly successful year and include players from Northern Ireland such as the captain and record 6Ns try scorer.

stephen_n · 17-12-2018 8:40pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

I’d consider linout calling as important a skill as place kicking. Yeah you can pick a team where no one is a specialist but your chances of winning will decrease a huge amount

Yes but as I said earlier Beirne does call the lineout. As far as I know iirc from this left wing podcast, he called it for Scarlets. Maybe some of the Munster fans can fill us in if he calls it for them. Roux has done it for Ireland, that doesn’t mean Beirne won’t in future. Just that Roux has been involved for a lot longer.

Kevski · 17-12-2018 9:21pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes but as I said earlier Beirne does call the lineout. As far as I know iirc from this left wing podcast, he called it for Scarlets. Maybe some of the Munster fans can fill us in if he calls it for them. Roux has done it for Ireland, that doesn’t mean Beirne won’t in future. Just that Roux has been involved for a lot longer.

I think he said that Holland calls it for Munster?

salmocab · 17-12-2018 10:05pm

I think this calls the line out gets a bit overstated, it’s obviously better to be a regular caller than not but I think ultimately the best player for the day will get the nod.

Richie_Rich89 · 17-12-2018 10:13pm

Henderson being out could be a good opportunity for Quinn Roux as Ireland's bench lock

Faugheen · 17-12-2018 10:28pm

salmocab wrote: »

I think this calls the line out gets a bit overstated, it’s obviously better to be a regular caller than not but I think ultimately the best player for the day will get the nod.

See I don't think it gets the appreciation it deserves.

A good line-out caller has to be able to read the defenses set up in order to keep the ball and come up with the right call to secure it. On the flip side, they have to come up with a plan to try and steal the ball if the opposition is throwing in.

These become more important in a 4/5 man lineout when there could be a host of potential ways for a team to secure the ball.

Toner coming in against the All Blacks showed just how important having a good lineout caller is. I really don't think people appreciate that.

The Rape of Lucretia · 17-12-2018 10:45pm

I think the scrummie is the one who should really be calling the lineouts. He has the best perspective on what the opposition are doing, how they did in previous ones, and how they are lining up.

kennedmc · 17-12-2018 11:21pm

I was looking online / offline for a 2018 grand slam DVD - remember thrm?!

There doesn't seem to have been any done - would have been nice Chimbo day viewing. Anyone seen one around?

The Lost Sheep · 17-12-2018 11:36pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think the scrummie is the one who should really be calling the lineouts. He has the best perspective on what the opposition are doing, how they did in previous ones, and how they are lining up.

Not really. Needs to be someone involved in the lineout for best options/calling/success

kennedmc wrote: »

I was looking online / offline for a 2018 grand slam DVD - remember thrm?!

There doesn't seem to have been any done - would have been nice Chimbo day viewing. Anyone seen one around?

Doesnt seem to be one

salmocab · 17-12-2018 11:43pm

Faugheen wrote: »

See I don't think it gets the appreciation it deserves.

A good line-out caller has to be able to read the defenses set up in order to keep the ball and come up with the right call to secure it. On the flip side, they have to come up with a plan to try and steal the ball if the opposition is throwing in.

These become more important in a 4/5 man lineout when there could be a host of potential ways for a team to secure the ball.

Toner coming in against the All Blacks showed just how important having a good lineout caller is. I really don't think people appreciate that.

I don’t mean the skill/knowledge of it is over played just that here on the discussion board people say x should be picked because he calls lineouts but I suspect that coaches use other metrics first.

Faugheen · 18-12-2018 12:09am

salmocab wrote: »

I don’t mean the skill/knowledge of it is over played just that here on the discussion board people say x should be picked because he calls lineouts but I suspect that coaches use other metrics first.

I don't know if anyone is saying x should be picked because he calls lineouts, I'm just saying I think Roux could be picked for that reason.

Basically if Beirne is picked, then hypothetically Toner goes down, then you're left with two players who've never called a lineout for Ireland on the pitch.

I personally think Joe prefers having a lineout caller on the bench. I'm just trying to suggest that some people don't expect Beirne should get the nod immediately, and that there's a good operator in Quinn Roux who is also knocking on the door, and is more of a traditional lock than Beirne.

redmca2 · 18-12-2018 6:11pm

What has happened with Dillane?
Is he injured?

Some Yoke · 19-12-2018 9:24am

If you wanna have some niggle in your pack, you gots to have some Nagle in your pack

Mr Tickle · 19-12-2018 9:49am

redmca2 wrote: »

What has happened with Dillane?
Is he injured?

No, he's sill playing with Connacht. His form dipped over the last year or so but it looks like he's coming good again. I think after his breakout season defenses have been paying a bit more attention to him.

19-12-2018 9:56am

Mr Tickle wrote: »

No, he's sill playing with Connacht. His form dipped over the last year or so but it looks like he's coming good again. I think after his breakout season defenses have been paying a bit more attention to him.

He didn't really do it at the set piece imo and his athleticism didn't make up for that.

ClanofLams · 19-12-2018 10:35am

Dillane is still young for a second row at 25, no reason he can't break into squad again in time, though there's more options there now obviously.

Mr Tickle · 19-12-2018 10:40am

Jermaine Big Barium wrote: »

He didn't really do it at the set piece imo and his athleticism didn't make up for that.

I know where you're coming from. His scrum is/was fine i think but his lineout wasn't great. No better man to stop a maul though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/4fdfw0/incredibly_maul_defence_by_ultan_dillane_and_a/

It didn't help that when Aly Muldowney left he took a lot of Connachts set piece experience with him. So suddenly it was on Dillane and Roux to take over all of that.

jonok28 · 19-12-2018 12:00pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Dillane is still young for a second row at 25, no reason he can't break into squad again in time, though there's more options there now obviously.

I agree, I think its more likely that he breaks back into the Irish set up after the world cup, he just needs to find a rich vein of form again, he was a beast in open play with ball in hand and put in bone crushing tackles, I agree there is a fair bit more options about but I still think he has something to offer the Irish set up.

Dubinusa · 19-12-2018 3:25pm

At one time, I thought the international 2nd row would be Henderson and Dillane.
2 magnificent ball carrying beasts.
But Toners incredible form and Ryan's rise have changed my outlook.
Dillane lost his mother last season and his form suffered. He is coming along nicely again and a strong remainder of the season could get him back into the reckoning.
He is an absolute joy to watch when he's on form.

Good days ahead, Treadwell playing very well, Molony also is looking sharp at Leinster and Dillane returning to form. That's 3 young talented locks yet to reach their prime.

Shefwedfan · 19-12-2018 3:31pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Dillane is still young for a second row at 25, no reason he can't break into squad again in time, though there's more options there now obviously.

Dev was never first choice till after he was 26....most second rows dont matter till late 20's...thats why Ryan is such a freak

Dillane has loads of time to nail down an Ireland spot

Dubinusa · 19-12-2018 3:39pm

I agree. Lots of young locks who haven't peaked.
The depth is startling right now. Connacht are very strong in the 2nd row. Ulster don't have quite that depth, but have 3 good locks. Munster are strong at 2nd row as are Leinster. Albeit, Fardy is huge for Leinster and may be forced to leave. That would leave Leinster shy with only 4 locks on the books. The academy lads aren't getting a look in, so they're not ready yet.

Burkie1203 · 19-12-2018 5:28pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I agree. Lots of young locks who haven't peaked.
The depth is startling right now. Connacht are very strong in the 2nd row. Ulster don't have quite that depth, but have 3 good locks. Munster are strong at 2nd row as are Leinster. Albeit, Fardy is huge for Leinster and may be forced to leave. That would leave Leinster shy with only 4 locks on the books. The academy lads aren't getting a look in, so they're not ready yet.

So Dillane to Leinster is the gist of your post ???

jonok28 · 19-12-2018 5:38pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

So Dillane to Leinster is the gist of your post ???

I had thought about that previously thinking it would get him into the Ireland conversation a bit more but it's better to have a relatively even distribution of locks to each province. No point in Dillane coming to Leinster and sitting behind Ryan and Toner, yes he would get some game time as Leinster rotate the squad quiet regularly but Leinster really like some of their Academy players moving forward so he should stay at Connacht continue to improve and maybe after the world cup he could get back into the Ireland set up.

stephen_n · 19-12-2018 6:26pm

I'm loving these attempts to wind up Connacht fans before Saturday, good work guys keep it up :pac:

19-12-2018 6:29pm

This thread is so full of COLFS.

Dubinusa · 19-12-2018 7:33pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

So Dillane to Leinster is the gist of your post ???

Yes please, Santa, please. That would be insane.

D14Rugby · 19-12-2018 10:12pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think the scrummie is the one who should really be calling the lineouts. He has the best perspective on what the opposition are doing, how they did in previous ones, and how they are lining up.

I'd feel fairly safe in saying you weren't/aren't a forward

Shefwedfan · 19-12-2018 10:37pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

So Dillane to Leinster is the gist of your post ???

All depends on how long Toner wants to continue after World, he could go for another few seasons

If he did retire then it wouldn’t be the worst thing for Dillane’s

connachta · 20-12-2018 10:38am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All depends on how long Toner wants to continue after World, he could go for another few seasons

If he did retire then it wouldn’t be the worst thing for Dillane’s

Ok.
We want Dooley, A.Byrne and McFadden for Connacht.
it wouldn’t be the worst thing for them

Paul Smeenus · 20-12-2018 12:56pm

connachta wrote: »

Ok.
We want Dooley, A.Byrne and McFadden for Connacht.
it wouldn’t be the worst thing for them

McFadden? Is he driving the other two down to Galway, just?

Buer · 20-12-2018 1:13pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUTWAx75_BE

Former Former · 20-12-2018 1:18pm

Jesus, Isaac Boss playing for Ulster, match on Setanta Sports, Contepomi, Jackman and Dempsey on the pitch... how old is McFadden?

Buer · 20-12-2018 1:26pm

Former Former wrote: »

Jesus, Isaac Boss playing for Ulster, match on Setanta Sports, Contepomi, Jackman and Dempsey on the pitch... how old is McFadden?

It's ok, he's still doing it a decade later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YKCqdYHeus

Paul Smeenus · 20-12-2018 1:27pm

Former Former wrote: »

Jesus, Isaac Boss playing for Ulster, match on Setanta Sports, Contepomi, Jackman and Dempsey on the pitch... how old is McFadden?

BUER SEZ: CLASS IS PERMANENT.

Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

Comments