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Men running in ladies numbers.

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    #92
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    Murph_D wrote: »
    I think it's clear that Helenanne didn't realise til afterwards what had transpired.


    Even afterwards, should track down the problem and not let it go.
    If all past issues were resolved then thats great.


    Its another reason though why swaps should be allowed, so people like Helen dont have to go through this type annoyance and it will happen time and time again on every race so I dont quite understand where people who support these rules are going, it must be like banging your head off a wall supporting something that there is no control over.


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    #93
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    it will happen time and time again on every race

    it happens because some people think there's no harm, if you paid for an entry it's yours and you can give it to whoever you want.


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    #94
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    To get back to the men running on ladies numbers - obviously it's not a big deal, it's not like I'm running for a place in the Olympics, but I've missed out a few times because of men - once was just at a parkrun, where obviously there are no winners, but it's nice to be first finisher and see a '1' in the results. I made a big effort a couple of years ago to pass the two other women I could see ahead of me, but I was still down as '2' in the results because a man ran with a woman's barcode. (maybe a mistake, but he still pushed me down the rankings).
    Another time, I missed out on an age group prize because a man, running on his wife's number, finished ahead of me. The couple weren't there at the prize giving, so he wasn't able to clear up the issue, and they posted the prize out to her. The couple very kindly admitted the mistake and sent it back, and I got the prize (a voucher) in the post - but other members of my club also won prizes that day, and they got to go up and get them, and were in photos together on the club website, and I wasn't in any of them as I didn't know I'd won.
    Again, I know it's not a big deal, but they are the little annoyances of men running on women's numbers that I've experienced :)
    Murph_D wrote: »
    I think it's clear that Helenanne didn't realise til afterwards what had transpired.


    It may be clear to you Murph but reading that quote in bold above was not clear to me when she found out about the male.


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    #95
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    RayCun wrote: »
    it happens because some people think there's no harm, if you paid for an entry it's yours and you can give it to whoever you want.


    Exactly, I agree. Its something that seems like a senseless rule to me. It needs to go.


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    #96
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Exactly, I agree. Its something that seems like a senseless rule to me. It needs to go.

    You've just been given a direct example of how people giving away numbers has negative effects on other runners, and you maintain that it seems like a senseless rule :rolleyes:


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    #97
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    Murph_D wrote: »
    I think it's clear that Helenanne didn't realise til afterwards what had transpired.
    M.m.m. wrote: »
    It may be clear to you Murph but reading that quote in bold above was not clear to me when she found out about the male.
    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Even afterwards, should track down the problem and not let it go.
    If all past issues were resolved then thats great.


    Its another reason though why swaps should be allowed, so people like Helen dont have to go through this type annoyance and it will happen time and time again on every race so I dont quite understand where people who support these rules are going, it must be like banging your head off a wall supporting something that there is no control over.
    RayCun wrote: »
    You've just been given a direct example of how people giving away numbers has negative effects on other runners, and you maintain that it seems like a senseless rule :rolleyes:


    You must have missed my point I made in response to that so I'll highlight it for you.


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    #98
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,187 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Del2005 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. You can't restrict what someone does with either once they purchase it.

    Of course it matters, its a fundamental distinction.

    How can you define what people can do with "it" without defining what "it" actually is.


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    #99
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    You must have missed my point I made in response to that so I'll highlight it for you.

    so you agree that until such time as races allow number transfers, runners should avoid passing on numbers given that unauthorized transfers create clear problems?


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    #100
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Most people running are not interested in volunteering or dont have the time.
    If the race is lead by volunteers then they already know it would be a waste of time to go to committees to get rules like this over turned since they probably dont have the money or resources to change the software any any other stuff around it in the first place.


    Its the kind of rule that needs to be changed at the top and maybe get a bit of funding for it to trickle down to club races etc. (I know funding...thats a joke) but it does need to change across the board.
    Swapping one of those things that will always happen no matter what your opinion is...why not just address it.

    It's not a ruling that is set on a sport wide national level that needs changing. It is just down to individual races and the systems they use to handle race entries.

    The runners need to tell races that they would like to be able to transfer numbers legitimately.
    And separately to that the races need to tell their timing/ event entry suppliers, if they make use of such things, that they would like to allow runners to be able to transfer entries easily.

    If it's a small local race being done all on paper then the only solution is to volunteer to help out if you want something changing.
    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Even afterwards, should track down the problem and not let it go.
    If all past issues were resolved then thats great.

    There is zero obligation on the person who has missed out on prizes due to number swaps going on to have to chase things up or notice that it happened. It is entirely the fault of the person who swapped numbers, and the problem then gets landed at the feet of the race organisers.
    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Its another reason though why swaps should be allowed, so people like Helen dont have to go through this type annoyance and it will happen time and time again on every race so I dont quite understand where people who support these rules are going, it must be like banging your head off a wall supporting something that there is no control over.
    I think you may be slightly missing the objections that people have with number swaps, nobody has suggested that transfers shouldn't be allowed. Only that transfers are not done without the permission and knowledge of the race organisers.


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    #101
    HelenAnne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    In mixed races, and age-group races it can be harder to know where you are in the rankings, so while I suspected I’d won my age group, I thought there was a chance there had been a 40+ woman so far ahead that I hadn’t seen her. So I wasn’t sure until I got the prize in the post the next week.
    Re parkrun - I THINK parkrun have a policy of not challenging people on their gender? I may be wrong? So while I saw a runner who looked male to me ahead of me (in the first female position) - who am I to tell someone how to gender identify, so I didn’t say anything 😀


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    #102
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    In mixed races, and age-group races it can be harder to know where you are in the rankings, so while I suspected I’d won my age group, I thought there was a chance there had been a 40+ woman so far ahead that I hadn’t seen her. So I wasn’t sure until I got the prize in the post the next week.
    Re parkrun - I THINK parkrun have a policy of not challenging people on their gender? I may be wrong? So while I saw a runner who looked male to me ahead of me (in the first female position) - who am I to tell someone how to gender identify, so I didn’t say anything ��


    we should open a thread about gender PC and peoples thoughts :pac:


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    #103
    HelenAnne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    I aint going to affect people like Helen, she could wipe the floor with me but if she ever needs to confront some ar$ehole in a race she can count on me to help her out

    Ehhh, easy tiger :) No need for fisticuffs over a supermarket gift voucher.
    If everyone just checks they’re running preferably under their own name, but at least under the right age & gender, that will do me :)


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    #104
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    It's not a ruling that is set on a sport wide national level that needs changing. It is just down to individual races and the systems they use to handle race entries.

    The runners need to tell races that they would like to be able to transfer numbers legitimately.
    And separately to that the races need to tell their timing/ event entry suppliers, if they make use of such things, that they would like to allow runners to be able to transfer entries easily.

    If it's a small local race being done all on paper then the only solution is to volunteer to help out if you want something changing.



    There is zero obligation on the person who has missed out on prizes due to number swaps going on to have to chase things up or notice that it happened. It is entirely the fault of the person who swapped numbers, and the problem then gets landed at the feet of the race organisers.


    I think you may be slightly missing the objections that people have with number swaps, nobody has suggested that transfers shouldn't be allowed. Only that transfers are not done without the permission and knowledge of the race organisers.


    I wont be getting into a two day slinging match over something that still stands but I dont think Im missing anything. You seem to change your perception of this issue with every post.


    We're now getting down to this being a problem for small races that write things down by hand. Im not going there.


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    #105
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    I wont be getting into a two day slinging match over something that still stands but I dont think Im missing anything. You seem to change your perception of this issue with every post.


    We're now getting down to this being a problem for small races that write things down by hand. Im not going there.

    I've not changed my position at all.

    Transfers when not permitted by, or notified to, race organisers cause problems and costs for races and loss of prizes for runners of all ages and genders and the person running wearing a number that is not theirs is making use of services they have not paid for.

    What has changed?


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    #106
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    Ehhh, easy tiger �� No need for fisticuffs over a supermarket gift voucher.
    If everyone just checks they’re running preferably under their own name, but at least under the right age & gender, that will do me ��


    Its funny you should say that really, having such principles about rules of a race and then thinking that its just a supermarket gift voucher.


    Id be reeling if I was after putting in years of training in a club like yourself only for someone to come in ahead of me like that. If I had an inkling that the male had done that I would've been over like a light to confront him about it and I wouldn't give a damn what the PC brigade think. Buts thats just me.


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    #107
    HelenAnne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Its funny you should say that really, having such principles about rules of a race and then thinking that its just a supermarket gift voucher.


    Id be reeling if I was after putting in years of training in a club like yourself only for someone to come in ahead of me like that. If I had an inkling that the male had done that I would've been over like a light to confront him about it and I wouldn't give a damn what the PC brigade think. Buts thats just me.

    Thanks for sympathising, and thanks everyone for seeing that it can be annoying, but just want to correct the perception that I trained really hard or am a really serious runner - it was just a bit annoying, but it was a parkrun and a post-Xmas race, so not too serious! If I'd been running in the Olympic Trials and it happened, I definitely would have spoken up! Thanks, all!


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    #108
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    I've not changed my position at all.

    Transfers when not permitted by, or notified to, race organisers cause problems and costs for races and loss of prizes for runners of all ages and genders and the person running wearing a number that is not theirs is making use of services they have not paid for.

    What has changed?


    I'm going to leave it there now Robin.
    You know my position, i would encourage anyone to number swap if they have the sense to write their name and contact on the back and not finish in top 10 ladies race.


    The rule needs to change to help women, we know that.
    I wont be affecting the top anything so not bothered personally.


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    #109
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    Thanks for sympathising, and thanks everyone for seeing that it can be annoying, but just want to correct the perception that I trained really hard or am a really serious runner - it was just a bit annoying, but it was a parkrun and a post-Xmas race, so not too serious! If I'd been running in the Olympic Trials and it happened, I definitely would have spoken up! Thanks, all!


    Sorry, i thought you were referring to the race where you get a supermarket voucher. That was worth fighting for Helen in my opinion.


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    #110
    HelenAnne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    Ultraman100 wrote: »
    Happened this year at a national championship,Dude running under a Burds number came first in the F age cat

    And I remember in the WMM a few years ago, as I was going up the dualler I could see the lead women coming down on the other side - and there was a man in the most perfunctory 'lady costume' (ie a frill around his waist) belting along among the leading women. He beat one of my clubmates into 11th place. He was disqualified after. But what on earth? Did he just wnat to finsh in the top 10 of some race, so he picked the Women's Mini Marathon?


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    #111
    ultrapercy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,606 ✭✭✭ultrapercy


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    robinph wrote: »
    I've not changed my position at all.

    Transfers when not permitted by, or notified to, race organisers cause problems and costs for races and loss of prizes for runners of all ages and genders and the person running wearing a number that is not theirs is making use of services they have not paid for.

    What has changed?


    I'm going to leave it there now Robin.
    You know my position, i would encourage anyone to number swap if they have the sense to write their name and contact on the back and not finish in top 10 ladies race.


    The rule needs to change to help women, we know that.
    I wont be affecting the top anything so not bothered personally.
    You are rationalising wrong behaviour. Number swapping affects more than the top 10 women. In a race like DCM which incorporates national clamps it concerns all age categoriel and team events. You have no right to do it now matter how you try to justify it to yourself or others. It's not the worst crime ever but it's still not right. Your attitude is a bit like Nelson Muntz who said "it's a victimless crime,like punching someone in the dark". I believe we have a right as consumers to demand organisers come up with a solution to the problem of early sell outs but until then the rules are the same for everyone and circumventing them is a selfish act although I wouldon't class it as theft.


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    #112
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    And I remember in the WMM a few years ago, as I was going up the dualler I could see the lead women coming down on the other side - and there was a man in the most perfunctory 'lady costume' (ie a frill around his waist) belting along among the leading women. He beat one of my clubmates into 11th place. He was disqualified after. But what on earth? Did he just wnat to finsh in the top 10 of some race, so he picked the Women's Mini Marathon?


    Attention seeking, no better way to get noticed.
    Any many who enters the WMM is an attention seeker, no ifs or buts.


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    #113
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    ultrapercy wrote: »
    You are rationalising wrong behaviour. Number swapping affects more than the top 10 women. In a race like DCM which incorporates national clamps it concerns all age categoriel and team events. You have no right to do it now matter how you try to justify it to yourself or others. It's not the worst crime ever but it's still not right. Your attitude is a bit like Nelson Muntz who said "it's a victimless crime,like punching someone in the dark". I believe we have a right as consumers to demand organisers come up with a solution to the problem of early sell outs but until then the rules are the same for everyone and circumventing them is a selfish act although I wouldon't class it as theft.


    lol go away outta that. victimless crime...im more a smash and grab on a moped meself ;)
    joke by the way.


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    #114
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    I'm going to leave it there now Robin.
    You know my position, i would encourage anyone to number swap if they have the sense to write their name and contact on the back and not finish in top 10 ladies race.

    What about the top V40 women (admittedly they are probably winning outright anyway), or the v50 women, or v60+ women, or the same for any of the male age categories? Are they not entitled to have a fair race against people who are actually of the same category as themselves as well and be able to claim their prizes?
    M.m.m. wrote: »
    The rule needs to change to help women, we know that.
    Again, there isn't an athletics rule that needs changing. It is not some blanket ban on number transfers occurring through all running races.

    It is individual races and their systems to record times, sell entries and then if they allow the transferring of number or not. At the moment the vast majority of races do not allow transfers but you seem to be missing that there are problems with people doing that without the permission of the race organisers.


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    #115
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    What about the top V40 women (admittedly they are probably winning outright anyway), or the v50 women, or v60+ women, or the same for any of the male age categories? Are they not entitled to have a fair race against people who are actually of the same category as themselves as well and be able to claim their prizes?


    Again, there isn't an athletics rule that needs changing. It is not some blanket ban on number transfers occurring through all running races.

    It is individual races and their systems to record times, sell entries and then if they allow the transferring of number or not. At the moment the vast majority of races do not allow transfers but you seem to be missing that there are problems with people doing that without the permission of the race organisers.


    If the races at the top level who enforce this rule changed it then the smaller ones would follow suit. Maybe also the races that may not be at the top level but are well respected.




    I cant start thinking about how each club does their admin, hand writing or whatever. I was referring to software changes.


    You know what I mean.


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    #116
    daydorunrun
    Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭daydorunrun


    sideswipe wrote: »
    Anybody else keep seeing this thread title at a glance and reading it as 'Men running in ladies undies'?

    Plenty of people seem to get their knickers in a twist about it anyway!

    “You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.” Homer.



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