Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

ohnonotgmail · 20-01-2021 9:42pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

If they are actually introducing an evidence based per unit minimum, they won't. If they are tweaking it for fun, then yes they will

I feel like some people are arguing
"it's not dangerous because there are functioning alcoholics, so it's a matter of personal choice" ... am I right?

You guys know there are functioning heroin addicts, right?

do you not think that your points may have been adressed somewhere in the near 5000 posts already in the thread?

ohnonotgmail · 20-01-2021 9:43pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Projection, much? With your "cocktails" pffft! what are you talking about snob? Do you have any idea how much lidl vodka I've bought!?

I am literally describing how this pricing works, I studied it when I did a free course on alcohol addiction and what has worked abroad. Stella is 1.6 units, so the minimum price per unit is not going to change the price.

It won't be expensive to keep drinking it will just be expensive to buy enough alcohol to kill yourself in a single night

oh one more thing, my uncle killed himself with those cider bottles I'm talking about that you are defending. So **** you. **** you a lot.

you really got value for money.

L1011 · 20-01-2021 9:47pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

I am literally describing how this pricing works, I studied it when I did a free course on alcohol addiction and what has worked abroad.

You did an indoctrination session, not a course - hence why it was free.

Potential-Monke · 20-01-2021 10:04pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Some of the people pushing it are doing it for 'genuine' reasons, i.e. they think it will help the health situation. I disagree with them both on practical grounds and on grounds of freedom.

If you get your drinking buddies to get behind us smokers for legalising cannabis, I'm sure we can get the smokers to back the opposition to MUP!

20-01-2021 10:09pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

I am literally describing how this pricing works, I studied it when I did a free course on alcohol addiction and what has worked abroad. Stella is 1.6 units, so the minimum price per unit is not going to change the price.

What quantity of Stella is 1.6 units? Hint: there's no commonly sold quantity in Ireland that is.
Anyway Stella is often available for around €1.25 a can so yeah, it will be affected.

20-01-2021 10:10pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

If you get your drinking buddies to get behind us smokers for legalising cannabis, I'm sure we can get the smokers to back the opposition to MUP!

If yous can get up off the sofa. :pac:

the_syco · 20-01-2021 11:32pm

If they're upping the price of drink, how about they use an extra 5 or 10 cents for recycling? Take Toronto, for example.

https://www.thebeerstore.ca/about-us/environmental-leadership/bag-it-back-odrp/

Glass bottles less than or equal to 630 ml: 10 cent deposit
Glass bottles greater than 630 ml: 20 cent deposit

Cans less than or equal to 1 litre: 10 cent deposit
Cans greater than 1 litre: 20 cent deposit

All bottles & cans get taken in, & recycled. It'd encourage people not to litter their cans. Some homeless people do take advantage of this, and when in Toronto would see some with 50-90 bottles ready outside the Beer Stores most of the mornings.

Quackster · 21-01-2021 12:44am

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

the_syco wrote: »

If they're upping the price of drink, how about they use an extra 5 or 10 cents for recycling? Take Toronto, for example.

https://www.thebeerstore.ca/about-us/environmental-leadership/bag-it-back-odrp/

All bottles & cans get taken in, & recycled. It'd encourage people not to litter their cans. Some homeless people do take advantage of this, and when in Toronto would see some with 50-90 bottles ready outside the Beer Stores most of the mornings.

Don't have to cross the Atlantic to see this, it's the practise in many European countries too. I do enjoy feeding the machines in supermarkets with my empties, the squelching sound is very satisfying!

L1011 · 21-01-2021 12:45am

the_syco wrote: »

If they're upping the price of drink, how about they use an extra 5 or 10 cents for recycling? Take Toronto, for example.

https://www.thebeerstore.ca/about-us/environmental-leadership/bag-it-back-odrp/

All bottles & cans get taken in, & recycled. It'd encourage people not to litter their cans. Some homeless people do take advantage of this, and when in Toronto would see some with 50-90 bottles ready outside the Beer Stores most of the mornings.

In the works - https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f6c86-submissions-invited-on-the-design-of-irelands-deposit-return-scheme-drs/

Last Government refused to countenance it when Labour and the Greens proposed one in 2017, though

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rare-cross-party-cooperation-on-new-waste-reduction-bill-1.3150717

The picking through bins to find bottles thing can lead to worse litter problems, though, as other stuff that was in the same bins gets strewn around.

In most places the refund is now handled by a machine that gives a reclaim receipt for an adjacent store, not requiring human interaction and hence no queues outside.

21-01-2021 3:46am

Dickie10 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me what exactly happens on a night out in continental europe? sounds a mythical place where there is no trouble relating to alchol, i havent been much, i was in santa ponsa, lanzarote, tenerife but there not prob good examples.

Like do people 18-35 not go on the beer at the weekends or what do they be at? i know theres a huge nightclub culture over there in belgium, germany , holland so is it drugs there all at ot what?
I like the british cities and towns and the nightlife in them, always feel very at home there. if irish government mess around on opening up hospitality i will do a few trips to liverpool, cardiff, edinburugh, london, belfast in summer

I lived in the Czech Republic for a few years. The result of 24 hour licensing meant there wasn't a rush to get in enough alcohol to "do you for the night". After drinking two pints an hour for the evening, you didn't then squeeze in two pints and a chaser at last orders, you just went to another pub down the street when the one you were in closed. Or if you'd had enough, went home. I was drinking with a mixture of Irish, Scottish, Czech and Macedonian. It was rare anyone got messy drunk. Never saw a fight. Cops there enforce the law and anyone acting up gets dealt with swiftly.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-01-2021 4:21pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

This has been tried in other countries and has worked

Citation needed...

SuperRabbit wrote: »

when you are making decisions to try to protect an entire population you have to go with evidence and not listen to people insisting that they are exceptions to the rule

Says the person who hasn't provided a single shred of evidence. "It just works, because I say so" :rolleyes:

And we aren't talking about prohibition we are effectively talking about only raising the price drinks which taste like pish and have no purpose other than to get someone fall-down drunk

So it's OK for rich people to drink as much as they like, just not the poor? Gotcha.

If they do minimum price per unit the price of your Stella or what have you won't be effected at all

Bullshít. If Dutch Gold etc. go up then the more 'respectable' brands will increase their prices to maintain the price differential and perceived gap in quality. It's basic marketing.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-01-2021 4:25pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is a fundamental law of economics called the downward sloping demand curve, which states that as the price of a product rises, the quantity demanded of that product falls.
If something is more expensive then people will buy less of it.

We already have the second most expensive alcohol in Europe, how much dearer do you want it to get?

Off-licence alcohol has got substantially cheaper over the last 20 years (until now) but overall alcohol consumption has fallen continually for 20 years, explain how that fits in with your theory?

But if it is someone who is not even started drinking yet then if the price are higher they will tend not to buy as much of it/not as many will but it, based on the downward sloping demand curve.
If you extrapolate that out across a whole demographic of young people who are starting to think about dabbling in alcohol then the numbers that do dabble will be less than if the drink was considerably cheaper.

Yeah they'll just turn to drugs instead. Great success :rolleyes:

Geuze wrote: »

70cl of vodka for 12? Are you sure?

Pretty sure 12 euro wouldn't even cover the duty+VAT (yes, a tax on a tax) on a bottle here.

How about this:

Litre of Jameson 15 euro in the Canaries, normal price not a discount or offer. 45 euro here.

The only European country with dearer alcohol than us is Finland.

Mimon wrote: »

This one is interesting in terms of where various substances lie between harmfulness and dependence.

Load of nonsense. How on earth can alcohol be worse for physical harm than tobacco?

Tobacco kills half of its users. That includes moderate and light users, too.

Sure, alcohol kills plenty of heavy users but the vast majority of people who use alcohol do not abuse it, suffer no health effects and arguably gain significant social and mental health benefits.

But sure let's punish everyone because of the actions of a few, it's the Irish way.

L1011 · 21-01-2021 5:21pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Pretty sure 12 euro wouldn't even cover the duty+VAT (yes, a tax on a tax) on a bottle here.

11.18 duty on 700ml of 37.5%
13.40 is the price after VAT on the duty.

The cheapest spirits in supermarkets are all loss-leaders.

That could be ended by reintroducing the ban on below cost sale of alcohol which Micheal Martin ended, while not causing the same effect as MUP due to that pushing up the prices of low, medium and the lower part of upper-priced products.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-01-2021 6:28pm

That's if the mythical 12 euro bottle of vodka exists at all though, has anyone ever seen one?

There's a 12.99 bottle on lidl.ie right now but it's a 500mL, the 700mL is 16.49 which is 37% more expensive than the mythical example quoted previously

odyssey06 · 21-01-2021 6:40pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's if the mythical 12 euro bottle of vodka exists at all though, has anyone ever seen one?

There's a 12.99 bottle on lidl.ie right now but it's a 500mL, the 700mL is 16.49 which is 37% more expensive than the mythical example quoted previously

Tesco Nikita Imperial Vokda 70cl is €12.78.
37.5% alcohol.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-01-2021 6:53pm

Jaysus.

Could be useful for stopping your windscreen washer freezing up though

Why not just ban such obvious below-cost selling though? Doesn't even cover the duty and VAT never mind the bottle and what's in it.

odyssey06 · 21-01-2021 7:04pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Jaysus.
Could be useful for stopping your windscreen washer freezing up though
Why not just ban such obvious below-cost selling though? Doesn't even cover the duty and VAT never mind the bottle and what's in it.

Have used it in cocktails and vodka-tonics and it was ok actually but wouldn't have many of them in a night.
But a solid vodka drinker might notice differences, especially in hangovers.

It's mystifying why they haven't brought back below cost selling ban - at a stroke of a pen, no major concern about impact on sales to the North

I think if it was brought back it would have taken some of the wind out of the sails for those demanding MUP, and their end goal is MUP... so they are conveniently forgetting about it and shouting look cheap drink, the only thing we can do about is MUP.
When you only have a hammer you want everything to look like a nail, or something.

L1011 · 21-01-2021 7:07pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's if the mythical 12 euro bottle of vodka exists at all though, has anyone ever seen one?

There's a 12.99 bottle on lidl.ie right now but it's a 500mL, the 700mL is 16.49 which is 37% more expensive than the mythical example quoted previously

Tesco sold (actually drinkable, just about - more so than their own brands of basically everything else except brandy) 37.5% rum for 11.69 - specifically undercutting Aldi's 12.69 by €1 - for quite some time.

Its dearer now, possibly still below cost. I'm sure they've figured out how much profit they get off the rest of the average trolley that contains it but it really doesn't seem to make sense and we lived fine with the ban before.

The reasons for lifting the ban never came to pass really - competition in core food items did not really start til the German retailers got wide enough coverage and their food items are not below cost.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2021 7:10pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Jaysus.

Could be useful for stopping your windscreen washer freezing up though

Why not just ban such obvious below-cost selling though? Doesn't even cover the duty and VAT never mind the bottle and what's in it.

I imagine it has "not for internal use" somewhere on the label in tiny letters.

weldoninhio · 21-01-2021 7:18pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

I can't believe how many people are against this I hope the poll doesn't reflect what the public actually think

This has been tried in other countries and has worked, I first heard of it on a course about alcoholism and addictions, it will save lives

Where has it worked? Where has it saved lives?

weldoninhio · 21-01-2021 7:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The place where it is said to have worked is Scotland. However alcohol there is considerably cheaper than here.

For example, 700ml of Bells in Tesco here is 22 euro. In tesco UK, it is £13.75 which based on today exchange rate is 15.46 euro. A difference of 6.54.

What’s happened to Scotland’s deaths by drugs since MUP came in??

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

the_syco · 21-01-2021 9:15pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

What’s happened to Scotland’s deaths by drugs since MUP came in??

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

Drugs aren't affected by the minimum price. They are being affected by the raids during COVID, so if MUP coming in, and COVID going out happens at the same time, the drug dealers will experience a massive growth in profit.

I wonder would people start selling illegal cheap drink?

Darc19 · 21-01-2021 10:29pm

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How about this:

Litre of Jameson 15 euro in the Canaries, normal price not a discount or offer. 45 euro here.

The only European country with dearer alcohol than us is Finland.

Load of nonsense. How on earth can alcohol be worse for physical harm than tobacco?

Tobacco kills half of its users. That includes moderate and light users, too.

Sure, alcohol kills plenty of heavy users but the vast majority of people who use alcohol do not abuse it, suffer no health effects and arguably gain significant social and mental health benefits.

But sure let's punish everyone because of the actions of a few, it's the Irish way.

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2021 10:30pm

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

the point was that tobacco kills half of the people who use it. Does alcohol kill half of the people who use it?

Suckit · 22-01-2021 2:16am

Introducing mup will not stop the harm alcohol does. It might transfer that harm to illegal drug trade or crime etc. for example if there is a profit to be made from importing cheap alcohol. But that is probably all.
This backwards way of thinking that the best way is to make something more difficult to get, doesn't usually work.

Mr. teddywinkles · 22-01-2021 11:33am

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

This has been asked 3billion times on here but I'll ask it again. Will prices affect these people's habits. No is the answer. No. A lot of that is social problems on top of abusing alcohol.

the_syco · 23-01-2021 11:09pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Increasing the price just means that they'll drink the cheaper stuff, and other things won't be bought. I doubt it'll stop them drinking. But I'd wonder if there wasn't alcohol, would the people in St Pats, etc, just use another drug? It's easy to blame the alcohol, as opposed to the peoples issues.

Shelflife · 24-01-2021 1:30pm

Theres no doubt that we have a problem with alcohol in Ireland and that it needs to be addressed.

However the recent alcohol bill will do absolutely nothing to deal with it. Imposing a MUP and putting up those ridiculous barriers will have zero impact on problem drinking and will only annoy the vast majority of drinkers who dont have a problem.

We need to properly educate people how to drink sensibly in the first place, instead of de-normalising alcohol I believe we need to normalise it , make it an everyday product thats there to be enjoyed and not taken to excess.

Many years ago we were on a family holiday to the continent, we were in a restaurant/bar and a group of 19-21 yr olds came in, I told my then 13 and 15yr olds to watch them. The group all ordered their drinks and a plate of meats and cheeses and of the group of 8 only 2 ordered a second drink. They enjoyed their wine or beers they weren't horsing them down like a lot of the Irish youth of a similar age do.

I allowed my children to have a drink at home if they wanted, if they had friends over I allowed them to have a drink too after getting their parents permission. We encouraged them to enjoy the drink in front of them and not be worrying about the next one. I encouraged them not to get into large rounds when they go out and not to be afraid to opt out of the rounds if they felt they had enough.

My children are now 24 and 22, they enjoy having a drink and on the whole dont abuse it.

For me its all about education, the problem for many is that they "learn" to drink by throwing back a naggin of vodka before they head into the teenage disco and its downhill from there.

We have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe and still have a drink problem so clearly putting the price up again isnt going to work. Hiding the demon drink behind a barrier isnt going to work either.

Education will work ! but thats a hard slog and a long road .......... so lets put the price up and throw in a few barriers !

Antares35 · 24-01-2021 5:03pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Your post just drips with snobbery and ignorance.
You've idea what LIDL vodka tastes like in a cocktail, with LIDL vermouth say...
I have thoroughly enjoyed many discounted LIDL wines of the week.
And LIDL perlenbacher XXL.
All of which would be affected by MUP.

Some of the people pushing it are doing it for 'genuine' reasons, i.e. they think it will help the health situation. I disagree with them both on practical grounds and on grounds of freedom.

But many if not most of those pushing it are doing it purely for selfish reasons which are deserving only of contempt - the snobs, the vintners, the off licences and their stooges in the Dail and media.

We've a snobby aunt in the family, call her Mrs Bucket, and she would be like that about Lidl wine, despite the many awards that some of it has won. She raved about the white wine my parents served with dinner one day she was over, and was none too impressed when she found out where it was from

Antares35 · 24-01-2021 5:08pm

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

With respect, those people are not addicts because of the price of alcohol.

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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