Guy touches girls arm, faces 10 years for sexual assault

One eyed Jack · 10-10-2019 4:25pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It really shows the consequences of the pick up artists you mentioned earlier. We know that guy doesn't understand social cues and heuristics of social interactions.
We know be researched how to make friends. Imagine him coming across the guy from from the BBC show telling him to ignore someone saying "no" and I stead read their body language.

Those guys can be pretty dangerous.

Which is precisely why I said I’d happily see them doing time for their attitudes and their behaviours towards other people. At 19 years of age the guy in this case isn’t so socially inept that he didn’t know what he was doing - twice! If all he wanted was to make friends, the girl made it clear the first time she wasn’t interested in making friends with him, yet he still considered his needs over hers. A lesson like this will hopefully have the intended effect of showing him that his behaviour was simply inappropriate, can’t do that to people and expect them to be ok with it.

punisher5112 · 10-10-2019 4:25pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sorry yo hear about all that.

Did you report all those incidents to the UK police and pursue them through the UK legal system?

Ireland and Guards were involved in most as per protocol in work....

One was arrested on night out but that was it even with witnesses.
This was in 2007 he was to attend court in 2008 never showed and that's it forgotten about...
Followed up numerous times got nowhere.

In work CCTV would be useable but they were never bothered.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 4:28pm

EDit wrote: »

This is the key thing for me. The trial, possible conviction and related publicity will likely just make this guy even more insular and socially inept, potentially leading to more problems down the line. A stern talking to from the police (with a formal caution) + some suitable therapy and social education (without the associated media circus) would seem a much more sensible approach

Without the Conviction, can you simply force a guy comply with therapy? I'd say the trial is a necessary formality, unfortunately.

One eyed Jack · 10-10-2019 4:28pm

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

It absolutely does. Just take a look at this thread and other threads on boards around these issues.

I’ve looked, and I still don’t think social media represents anything close to how these cases are dealt with in reality.

punisher5112 · 10-10-2019 4:31pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Without the Conviction, can you simply force a guy comply with therapy? I'd say the trial is a necessary formality, unfortunately.

If he does time there is no obligation on him to do any course either....

It would be a good option and used as a tool.

We could say look it's wrong you need to do said course but if you don't comply then do a huge amount of community service or some short time inside.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 4:33pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Which is precisely why I said I’d happily see them doing time for their attitudes and their behaviours towards other people. At 19 years of age the guy in this case isn’t so socially inept that he didn’t know what he was doing - twice! If all he wanted was to make friends, the girl made it clear the first time she wasn’t interested in making friends with him, yet he still considered his needs over hers. A lesson like this will hopefully have the intended effect of showing him that his behaviour was simply inappropriate, can’t do that to people and expect them to be ok with it.

Depends on how socially inept he is. He might not have a well developed theory of mind meaning he might not be able to consider her needs. And he might not have been able to read the cues that she wasn't Interested in being friends. It really depends on how socially inept he is.

I hear the stories about these lads. They're not necessarily bad people but they cause harm because they just don't get social interactions so how do you deal with them? Id say education should be the first route.

I actually read "Google making friends" as covering meeting women too. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he came across pick up artist stuff in his research.

_Brian · 10-10-2019 4:34pm

The encounter sounds all wrong.

And no matter how badly the first encounter went he should not have approached her a second time and initiated physical contact in the way described.

Back to “no means no” and anything after that is a serious problem.

I’ve a 17yo daughter myself and if she described the same encounter to me he’d be lucky if going to the guards was the result.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 4:37pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

If he does time there is no obligation on him to do any course either....

It would be a good option and used as a tool.

We could say look it's wrong you need to do said course but if you don't comply then do a huge amount of community service or some short time inside.

That's what I'd say. Start with education or therapy or whatever.

punisher5112 · 10-10-2019 4:38pm

It's actually an insult I believe to those that have been assaulted sexually to be honest.

Reviews and Books Galore · 10-10-2019 4:39pm

Beasty wrote: »

It's not a mandatory sentence. Sentencing has not taken place yet. Sensationalist newspaper headline alongside sensationalist thread title

The fact it's even being considered is absurd. Sure, most women touch a guy's arm/inside of elbow.

Imo, saying this is sexual assault is really pushing it as a woman's arm is not a sexual body part in any shape or form.

I'd be looking to get her charged with a false accusation sharpish.

10-10-2019 4:41pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Agreed. But how do you nip it in the bud with a guy who doesn't understand social cues? Conviction? Prison? Supervision? Or something more supportive to teach him how to interact?

In the overwhelmingly majority of cases, I'd say he's lucky he didn't end up getting a hiding

Reviews and Books Galore · 10-10-2019 4:47pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. A girl touching a boys arm probably wouldn't have been worth reporting because of physical differences, strength, likelihood of causing harm. But I take your point. Never miss an opportunity to Bring gender into it.

And the sexism comes out :rolleyes:

A nail in the eye is same damage no matter the 'strength', or a kick to the crotch, or a grab in the balls.

Edit: As a sidenote, he's really not a bad looking fella.

One eyed Jack · 10-10-2019 4:48pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends on how socially inept he is. He might not have a well developed theory of mind meaning he might not be able to consider her needs. And he might not have been able to read the cues that she wasn't Interested in being friends. It really depends on how socially inept he is.

I hear the stories about these lads. They're not necessarily bad people but they cause harm because they just don't get social interactions so how do you deal with them? Id say education should be the first route.

I actually read "Google making friends" as covering meeting women too. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he came across pick up artist stuff in his research.

He’s clearly not so socially inept that he didn’t know what he was doing, he just didn’t get away with it is all. At 19 years of age he knew enough to know what he was doing was inappropriate, he just didn’t expect to be punished for it. As I said in the other thread - nobody should have to put up with that shìte, or excuses being made for people who know better. He wouldn’t have been convicted, let alone been on trial, if there was any evidence to show he was incapable of understanding the consequences of his actions.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 4:54pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In the overwhelmingly majority of cases, I'd say he's lucky he didn't end up getting a hiding

He might have gotten plenty of hiding and bullying for his odd behaviour.

Salary Negotiator · 10-10-2019 4:55pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

The fact it's even being considered is absurd. Sure, most women touch a guy's arm/inside of elbow.

Imo, saying this is sexual assault is really pushing it as a woman's arm is not a sexual body part in any shape or form.

I'd be looking to get her charged with a false accusation sharpish.

She didn't make a false accusation though, she said that he touched her arm and thought he was going to touch her breast. She doesn't decide what charges are brought against him.

So, what false accusation do you think she made?

Reviews and Books Galore · 10-10-2019 4:58pm

PoisonIvyBelle wrote: »

The guy needs therapy for social anxiety or whatever he has going on.
The girl needs therapy for what was an anxiety-provoking and traumatic encounter for her (we don't know her history, so in some context this may have been extremely traumatic for her).

It's not sexual assault. Sexual assault is not "he touched my arm and I think he would have touched my breast". It's not okay, but it's not sexual assault and it's not something to go to prison for. It was an awkward encounter wth a socially awkward young man who from what I can see was just trying to flirt with a girl he liked and got it wrong.

I really have issue with things like this getting blown up out of proportion. It only makes it even harder for real sexual assault cases to get the respect they deserve in the press and in court.

She does need therapy for her own toxic behaviour and using a guy as an excuse for failing a test.

Really. It sounds harsh but the language in the article is , imo, a sign of a toxic woman. Sorry, but I think it's true.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 5:04pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

He’s clearly not so socially inept that he didn’t know what he was doing, he just didn’t get away with it is all. At 19 years of age he knew enough to know what he was doing was inappropriate, he just didn’t expect to be punished for it. As I said in the other thread - nobody should have to put up with that shìte, or excuses being made for people who know better. He wouldn’t have been convicted, let alone been on trial, if there was any evidence to show he was incapable of understanding the consequences of his actions.

Neither of us know how socially inept he is or isn't. I've no idea what he was expecting by walking up to someone and touching them and walking away without saying anything. Sounds like very oddball behaviour so I've no idea of the extent of it.

I'd imagine the point of the trial us to establish whether he has capacity to be held accountable (or to what extent he is accountable)

PoisonIvyBelle · 10-10-2019 5:13pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

She does need therapy for her own toxic behaviour and using a guy as an excuse for failing a test.

Really. It sounds harsh but the language in the article is , imo, a sign of a toxic woman. Sorry, but I think it's true.

Just to clarify, what you've said here is not what I meant by my post.

If the woman does have her own issues that made her react that way, it's unfortunate and she should receive the help she needs to deal with those.

If the guy has issues that made him behave how he did, it is also unfortunate and he should receive the help he needs to deal with that.

My point was that it is not a case of sexual assault. It is a case of a man who obviously has problems in interacting with people and a woman who reacted to his behaviour in a manner that indicates she has her own issues.

None of that should have led to a court case or suggesting the guy go to prison or be put on a sex offenders list. Frankly, that is fcuking absurd.

What should happen, is that both people should receive the help they need, i.e. mandatory therapy for the man to address his behaviour and whatever support the woman needs if she feels she needs it (I'm not saying mandatory here as she isn't the problem here, it's just that her reaction indicates she may have unedrlying problems of her own).

Should this have happened? No. Is it something criminal? Also no. I mean, come on. If a guy touches my arm in a bar at the weekend to get my attention and I react badly because of a previous situation or whatever, is the guy at fault? No. Is the guy a bit of a dick? Probably. Should you go to prison just for being a bit of a dick with zero social cues? No.

super_furry · 10-10-2019 5:16pm

Got to love how all the usual suspects here are suddenly more knowledgeable about the law and the case than the judge, and absolutely more qualified to decide what actually happened, just because they read a clickbait Daily ****ing Mail story.

One eyed Jack · 10-10-2019 5:16pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Neither of us know how socially inept he is or isn't. I've job idea what he was expecting by walking up to someone and touching them and walking away without saying anything. Sounds like very oddball behaviour so I've no idea of the extent of it.

I'd imagine the point of the trial us to eats lush whether he has capacity to be held accountable (or to what extent he is accountable)

We don’t, but the magistrates do, and gave their opinions accordingly, having heard all the evidence presented at his trial. You’re trying to suggest ideas about theory of mind implying he may not have had the capacity to understand the consequences of his actions. That would have been taken into consideration long before a trial, where he appears to have had the capacity of being able to aid in his own defence, as though a google search for ‘how to make friends’ explains his behaviour. It doesn’t. Plenty of people search for how to make friends, and they don’t go around assaulting people, let alone the same person twice after they have made it clear the first time they’re not interested in having anything to do with him.

AulWan · 10-10-2019 5:22pm

What he did sounds creepy and weird.

So what if he is shy and awkward, that doesn't negate her feelings and he must have scared her, approaching her like that.

He doesn't deserve to be convicted of an offence for it, but she doesn't be deserved to be slagged off for reporting it either.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 5:49pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

And the sexism comes out :rolleyes:

A nail in the eye is same damage no matter the 'strength', or a kick to the crotch, or a grab in the balls.

Edit: As a sidenote, he's really not a bad looking fella.

I really have no idea why you bolded "causing harm".

Reviews and Books Galore · 10-10-2019 6:04pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I really have no idea why you bolded "causing harm".

Let's not derail the thread with the usual backwards and forwards, but I was highlighting the fact that you think a man can cause more harm than a woman. But, women are more likely to use a weapon/more brutal tactics due to the percieved strenght difference.

ohnonotgmail · 10-10-2019 6:10pm

super_furry wrote: »

Got to love how all the usual suspects here are suddenly more knowledgeable about the law and the case than the judge, and absolutely more qualified to decide what actually happened, just because they read a clickbait Daily ****ing Mail story.

i dont think half of them read past the headline.

is_that_so · 10-10-2019 6:45pm

Odd behaviour, creepy to an extent but hardly meriting such a severe charge. As has been suggested above, two lives damaged by misguided actions.

is_that_so · 10-10-2019 6:50pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i dont think half of them read past the headline.

They are protecting themselves! It tends to get worse the further way from the headline you get!

riffmongous · 10-10-2019 7:09pm

AulWan wrote: »

What he did sounds creepy and weird.

So what if he is shy and awkward, that doesn't negate her feelings and he must have scared her, approaching her like that.

He doesn't deserve to be convicted of an offence for it, but she doesn't be deserved to be slagged off for reporting it either.

If you started a thread on here posting the girl's side of things about some creepy guy just coming up and touching you, you'd have a very different thread

HorrorScope · 10-10-2019 7:13pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Odd behaviour, creepy to an extent but hardly meriting such a severe charge. As has been suggested above, two lives damaged by misguided actions.

Creepy for sure but the guy sounds like a harmless soul with a couple of screws loose. Not making excuses for him at all but he hardly sounds like a lecherous rapist flicking his tongue in the hedges. Seems like a complete overreaction by the “offended” lady in my eyes.

NaFirinne · 10-10-2019 7:18pm

I wonder who is the bigger victim here. The girl who got touched on the arm and the side. Or the guy that obviously has social anxiety issues now being the center of this kind of media attention.

HorrorScope · 10-10-2019 7:19pm

NaFirinne wrote: »

I wonder who is the bigger victim here. The girl who got touched on the arm and the side. Or the guy that obviously has social anxiety issues now being the center of this kind of media attention.

Only the female wins in that scenario, don’t you know a hand touched her?!

Guy touches girls arm, faces 10 years for sexual assault

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