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All parts at once or break them up.

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  • 23-04-2019 11:47pm
    #1
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭


    HI,

    Trying to tone muscle. With children etc can only get to gym 3 times a week. Maybe 4 at a push.

    When I go to the gym, I tend to work all body parts. Cheat, biceps, triceps, shoulders, back, legs, some core work.

    I know one can break it up and do maybe

    1. Chest and biceps
    2 back and triceps
    3. Shoulders and legs.

    Thing is if I break it up, I’m probably only going to specifically target each body part once a week, which seems very little, which is why I try and do a bit of everything.


    Thoughts?


«134

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    #2
    Reps4jesus
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Reps4jesus


    If you are going to the gym three times a week then i think you would be better off sticking with 3 full body work outs. As you said, you would be better off with more frequency than just training chest once a week etc.


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    #3
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    Reps4jesus wrote: »
    If you are going to the gym three times a week then i think you would be better off sticking with 3 full body work outs. As you said, you would be better off with more frequency than just training chest once a week etc.

    Thank you.

    Any other comments from others.


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    #4
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    A split routine like you mention would be better for strength or building muscle, for overall fitness and toning I'd go along with the full body workout.


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    #5
    Weltsmertz
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Weltsmertz


    If you're going three times a week and leaving a day between workouts then stay with full body.
    Doing splits is a bit pointless unless you are going to the gym every day.


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    #6
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Make sure you're bit spreading the work too thinly each day. You don't have to hit every muscle every time - if you try to there won't be time for any sort of volume.

    Also, balance the volume and intensity so you don't leave yourself in a position where the leg work, for example, on day 1 compromised what you could do on days 2 and 3 because you overdid it.


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    #7
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    3 full body is going to be your best bet, focus on compound , plenty of dumbbells you can get squats and overhead in the same movement.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #8
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,498 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I'm surprised at people advocating a full body routine every day. I know that body part once a week is sub optimal but I would never have considered it more optimal than full body every day. I would have thought some sort of a two-day split over three days such as going ABA -> BAB would be a better use of time?


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    #9
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    Make sure you're bit spreading the work too thinly each day. You don't have to hit every muscle every time - if you try to there won't be time for any sort of volume.

    Also, balance the volume and intensity so you don't leave yourself in a position where the leg work, for example, on day 1 compromised what you could do on days 2 and 3 because you overdid it.

    hey, what do you mean by 'bit spreading'


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    #10
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Personally I like to change it up, although I have more free time.

    For a month or two I will focus primarily on callisthenics with a mix of skipping, chin ups, pull ups, push ups, various core exercises (ab wheel / hanging leg raise), and light weight (like <20kg) relatively high volume squats / lunges.

    Then I reduce the frequency of the above work out and go in to a weight lifting split, and try and include some periodization, either over the weeks or in a single workout.

    So Chest / back / Arms one day, and Legs / rear chain another (primarily squatting and deadlifting).

    Legs periodization in 1 day = 3 sets of a heavy-ish weight for 5 (say 100KG), then 3 sets of 90kg for 6, 3 sets 80kg for 7 and 3 sets of 70kg for 8. Same for deadlift, if I can make it through it.

    Similar set up for benching and rows, and adding in some side stuff like curls, tricep extensions and band pull aparts.

    The weeks I'm going heavier on weight, I still include days of mainly callisthenics.

    If the weather is good also have 30 mins cycling per day (in and out of town).

    I've found the above tough, but definite increases in strength, size and endurance.

    Highly recommend looking at some of the free workouts on the Athlean x youtube channel, I've learned a crazy amount there.


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    #11
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Mark Rippetoe wrote: »
    I'm surprised at people advocating a full body routine every day. I know that body part once a week is sub optimal but I would never have considered it more optimal than full body every day. I would have thought some sort of a two-day split over three days such as going ABA -> BAB would be a better use of time?

    I see what you're saying...a full body three times a week would probably work best with some form of DUP.

    But it depends what way its structured. If it was me, I'd base it around the big three with one accessory for each that could be changed each day.

    Another way would be something like a rejig of H****y's programme with a day for each if the big three so main movement + 2 variations + 2 isolation then mix them around so D1 might be squat + squat variation 1 + deadlift variation 1 + bench isolation + squat isolation.

    D2: bench + bench variation 2 + deadlift isolation 1 + squat isolation 2 + bench isolation 2

    D3: deadlift + deadlift variation 2 + bench variation 2 + deadlift isolation 2 + squat isolation

    Not exactly like that cos that's cobbled together on the fly but it varies the stress on each of areas but there's a stimulus for each across each of the 3 days if that makes sense.


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    #12
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,498 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Yeah, that makes a bit more sense. I got the impression it was the exact same full body routine 3 times a week, which seemed bizarre.


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    #13
    caviardreams
    Registered Users Posts: 5,439 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    jim o doom wrote: »

    Legs periodization in 1 day = 3 sets of a heavy-ish weight for 5 (say 100KG), then 3 sets of 90kg for 6, 3 sets 80kg for 7 and 3 sets of 70kg for 8. Same for deadlift, if I can make it through it.

    My understanding is that periodization refers to structuring your training over time, so not within the one session but across sessions. Personally I think you would be better splitting the above into separate sessions e.g. 3*8 one day, 3*6 the next in a structured way with progression, it seems like a lot of squat volume for one session and therefore possibly not enough intensity imo (I know I am pretty fatigued after 5 sets of squats usually nevermind the amount you have listed above! :o)

    I use an upper and lower split as mostly I hit 3 sessions a week but occasionally manage only 2 or sometimes 4, so it actually gives me a bit of flexibility and I usually do the ABA BAB thing over two weeks. Plus the thought of having to do legs three days a week fills me with intense fear :pac::D


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    #14
    caviardreams
    Registered Users Posts: 5,439 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Mark Rippetoe wrote: »
    Yeah, that makes a bit more sense. I got the impression it was the exact same full body routine 3 times a week, which seemed bizarre.

    I think even at its simplest/most unstructured by full body 3 times a week I took it to mean different exercises each of the three days e.g. Legs monday: squats & back extensions; Weds, BSS and leg curls; Sat, Lunges & Romanian deadlifts and so on.

    I used to do this kind of set-up back in the day and it worked well but I was only a beginner. The advantage I found was that if you miss a day or two it's not a big deal so maybe a bit more flexible.


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    #15
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    Thanks for all the replies, but you have me a bit confused, you all sound like fairly seasoned campaigners.......I am not fully au fait with all your lingo. Apologies about this.

    some statements from your posts:

    1. D1 might be squat + squat variation 1 + deadlift variation 1 + bench isolation + squat isolation (what is diff. between squat and squat isolation)

    2. I would have thought some sort of a two-day split over three days such as going ABA -> BAB would be a better use of time? (is this in very simple terms A= Back B= Chest C= Legs and then mix it up)


    3. H****y's programme (dont know what this is)


    4. a full body three times a week would probably work best with some form of DUP. (what is DUP)



    ......I know some of you are shaking your head now. lol. Go easy on me.


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    #16
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    tom_tarbucket wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies, but you have me a bit confused, you all sound like fairly seasoned campaigners.......I am not fully au fait with all your lingo. Apologies about this.

    some statements from your posts:

    1. D1 might be squat + squat variation 1 + deadlift variation 1 + bench isolation + squat isolation (what is diff. between squat and squat isolation)

    2. I would have thought some sort of a two-day split over three days such as going ABA -> BAB would be a better use of time? (is this in very simple terms A= Back B= Chest C= Legs and then mix it up)


    3. H****y's programme (dont know what this is)


    4. a full body three times a week would probably work best with some form of DUP. (what is DUP)



    ......I know some of you are shaking your head now. lol. Go easy on me.

    Sorry, it was all a bit over the place and not hugely helpful to you as it was

    Hanley's template was here:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92687179

    See worth reading through but this is the structure:

    A) Main Lift
    B) Something hard like the main lift 5x8
    C) Something else hard like the main lift 5x8
    D) Something bodybuilder-y that hits the same muslces as the main lift 4x12
    E) Something else bodybuilder-y that hits the same muscles as the main lift 4x12

    So on a squat day, that could be:

    A) Squat
    B) RDL
    C) Lunges
    D) Hamstring Curls
    E) Leg extensions

    RDL is also an option as a B/C on deadlift day or deadlift variation as I referred to them earlier.

    So you could do everything on the one day or mix it up, like I gave an example of earlier so legs wouldn't be just the one day.

    But with something like that, to be honest, the volume is a lot so frequency may be less of an issue and I possibly overcomplicated it.

    Just for completeness sake, DUP is daily insulating periodosation. So if you squatted each of the 3 days just doing full body workout each day you trained, Day 1 might be 4-5 sets of 3-5 reps at a heavier weight/higher % of tour max. Day 2 might be 4-5 sets of 10-12 at a lower weight and dat 3 might be 4-5 sets of 8 reps. So you're changing the volume intensity across the week but across a cycle of 4-6 weeks the overall trend is increasing


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    #17
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,498 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    tom_tarbucket wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies, but you have me a bit confused, you all sound like fairly seasoned campaigners.......I am not fully au fait with all your lingo. Apologies about this.

    some statements from your posts:

    1. D1 might be squat + squat variation 1 + deadlift variation 1 + bench isolation + squat isolation (what is diff. between squat and squat isolation)

    2. I would have thought some sort of a two-day split over three days such as going ABA -> BAB would be a better use of time? (is this in very simple terms A= Back B= Chest C= Legs and then mix it up)


    3. H****y's programme (dont know what this is)


    4. a full body three times a week would probably work best with some form of DUP. (what is DUP)



    ......I know some of you are shaking your head now. lol. Go easy on me.

    Ask away dude. How else will you learn?

    1) My understanding would be squat is squat but squat isolation would be something to isolate a specific muscle used in a squat, like leg extension for quads.

    2) The letters represented day splits. For example A = squat, bench, row and B = deadlift, overhead press, pullup. Its a split based on movements rather than body parts but all body parts would be covered regardless.

    3) On phone so can't link but search this forum for "want a simple program to get stronger?"

    4) One of many ways of programming intensity over a long period of time. For the sake of simplicity, don't worry about it.


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    #18
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    caviardreams wrote: »
    My understanding is that periodization refers to structuring your training over time, so not within the one session but across sessions.
    :pac::D

    You are correct, normally periodization is done over multiple sessoins, but it can be done in a single, long, torture session if you have limited days to train a particular week, or even over a longer period.

    I managed the set I outlined.. and yes I was broken the next day or two, but definite gains from doing it.

    I recommend you check out some strongman videos by Hafthor Bjornsson and Brian Shaw on YouTube.. now I realise these lads are professional strongman competitors, but the sheer volume of lifting they do in a single session shows what we could be doing ourselves, but with lesser weight as we are not the giants that these lads are. They do an incredible amount of squatting or deadlifting in a single days training, and you can easily include periodization into one session if you are willing to spend a lot of time working one or two muscle groups in that session.


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    #19
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    Thanks all.
    Sorry for the long post, this is probably simple if you know how, but when you don't, its confusing. I am trying to write it so I understand.
    So to take it back to basics and put in to an English type way for my simple mind and so that I can visualize it in my head.
    All of this essentially focuses around 3 main things and these are key to all this and constant throughout.

    > Deadlift
    > Bench Press
    > Squat

    Had a gander at the other thread, to try and get some info.
    Would this be an ok example for lets say the first 2 weeks:


    Week 1

    Day A

    1) Bench press 5x8 (70%)
    2) Incline Bench 5x8
    3) Shoulder Press 5x8
    4) Skull Crusher 4x12
    5) Flys 4x12

    Day B

    1) Squat 5x8 (70%)
    2) Front squat 5x8
    3) Lunge 5x8
    4) Leg extension 4x12
    5) Calf raises 4x12

    Day C

    1) Deadlift 5x8 (70%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Snatch grip DL 5x8
    4) Glute machine 4x12
    5) Hip thrust 4x12


    Week 2

    Day A

    1) Bench press 5x6 (75%)
    2) Incline Bench 5x8
    3) Shoulder Press 5x8
    4) Skull Crusher 4x12
    5) Flys 4x12

    Day B

    1) Squat 5x6 (75%)
    2) Front squat 5x8
    3) Lunge 5x8
    4) Leg extension 4x12
    5) Calf raises 4x12

    Day C

    1) Deadlift 5x6 (75%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Snatch grip DL 5x8
    4) Glute machine 4x12
    5) Hip thrust 4x12


    - What jumps out at me is that there is not a lot of dedicated work for biceps or triceps or even shoulders, but then I presume the main 3 (deadlift, bench press, squat) target all these things.
    - Week 1 is DAY A, B, C. Should week 2 be C, B, A etc?
    - Should week 2 and week 3 etc have different variations every week of the 2-5 exercises?



    ***for reference purposes***

    1) Main Lift
    2) Something hard like the main lift
    3) Something else hard like the main lift 5x8
    4) Something bodybuilder-y that hits the same muslces as the main lift 4x12
    5) Something else bodybuilder-y that hits the same muscles as the main lift 4x12

    Main lift progressions:
    70% 5x8+
    75% 5x6+
    80% 5x5+
    85% 5x4+
    90% 5x3+
    95% 5x2+


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    #20
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Shoulders and triceps are getting worked a lot. You don't need to do all of the exercises in the world to be working something. Do some curls at the end if you want.

    If week 1 is A, B, C then every week after should be the same. Id have squat on day 1, bench on day 2 then deadlift. There is an overlap on what's getting worked on squat and deadlift days so allow for recovery from squat day.

    Keep the exercises the same for the 6 weeks. Make changes for the next cycle based on what you think needs more attention.


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    #21
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,498 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    IMO, on your day C, the exercises 1-3 is probably enough for that movement. You could replace 4 and 5 with chinups and barbell rows. They work the back muscles so technically still contribute to the deadlift. Plus the chinups would double as bicep work.


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    #22
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    Thanks for comments, edited to reflect:


    Week 1

    Day A

    1) Squat 5x8 (70%)
    2) Front squat 5x8
    3) Lunge 5x8
    4) Leg extension 4x12
    5) Calf raises 4x12

    Day B

    1) Bench press 5x8 (70%)
    2) Incline Bench 5x8
    3) Shoulder Press 5x8
    4) Skull Crusher 4x12
    5) Flys 4x12

    Day C

    1) Deadlift 5x8 (70%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Snatch grip DL 5x8
    4) Chinups 4x12
    5) Barbell rows 4x12


    Week 2

    Day A

    1) Squat 5x6 (75%)
    2) Front squat 5x8
    3) Lunge 5x8
    4) Leg extension 4x12
    5) Calf raises 4x12

    Day B

    1) Bench press 5x6 (75%)
    2) Incline Bench 5x8
    3) Shoulder Press 5x8
    4) Skull Crusher 4x12
    5) Flys 4x12


    Day C

    1) Deadlift 5x6 (75%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Snatch grip DL 5x8
    4) Chinups 4x12
    5) Barbell rows 4x12




    ***for reference purposes***

    1) Main Lift
    2) Something hard like the main lift
    3) Something else hard like the main lift 5x8
    4) Something bodybuilder-y that hits the same muslces as the main lift 4x12
    5) Something else bodybuilder-y that hits the same muscles as the main lift 4x12

    Main lift progressions:
    70% 5x8+
    75% 5x6+
    80% 5x5+
    85% 5x4+
    90% 5x3+
    95% 5x2+


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    #23
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    It's always good to think what each or the B-E is doing for you and why you're doing it, like Mark Rippetoe alluded to.

    Don't just do an exercise because its chest-related, for example. Think about what it might do for you and why it might help.

    Will come in handy if you want to make changes after 6 weeks


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    #24
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    jim o doom wrote: »
    You are correct, normally periodization is done over multiple sessoins, but it can be done in a single, long, torture session if you have limited days to train a particular week
    You can't have periodisation over a single session. The word simply doesn't apply in that contect. What you posted, was a single high volume session.

    A macrocycle is typically a year, it's broken up in to shorter manageable phases called mesocycles. Mesocycles are broken up into microcycles. A microcycle is each repeating block of workouts, for most people this is a week.

    Periodisation the name for the entire process.


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    #25
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Mellor wrote: »

    Periodisation the name for the entire process.

    My brain's tired now, great info as always though.


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    #26
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Mellor wrote: »

    Periodisation the name for the entire process.

    After further research I guess I was confused! Thanks for the correction. (god I hate being wrong)

    If the body can stand it, single sessions of high volume lifting on a particular body part is still pretty effective though.. right?


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    #27
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    jim o doom wrote: »
    If the body can stand it, single sessions of high volume lifting on a particular body part is still pretty effective though.. right?

    Depends on the rest of your training.

    If you have enough recovery that the fatigue from the high volume doesn't have a negative impact on your other training, then the level of volume is fine. It's about managing fatigue

    And you really want the general trend of workload to be increasing.


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    #28
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    Depends on the rest of your training.

    If you have enough recovery that the fatigue from the high volume doesn't have a negative impact on your other training, then the level of volume is fine. It's about managing fatigue

    And you really want the general trend of workload to be increasing.

    Work load is definitely increasing, just tried this high volume style after watching a bunch of strong man training. Hard as balls but felt amazing and it didn't negatively impact on the workload for the rest of the week.

    Legs hurt like heck the next day though. Cycled to work and went to kenpo that night anyways!


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    #29
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    1) Deadlift 5x8 (70%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Snatch grip DL 5x8
    4) Chinups 4x12
    5) Barbell rows 4x12

    could I replace the 'snatch grip DL' with 'hip thrusts'?


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    #30
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    tom_tarbucket wrote: »
    1) Deadlift 5x8 (70%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Snatch grip DL 5x8
    4) Chinups 4x12
    5) Barbell rows 4x12

    could I replace the 'snatch grip DL' with 'hip thrusts'?

    Yes. And after 6 weeks, should you run it again, do the one you didn't do


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    #31
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    Week 1

    Day A

    1) Squat 5x8 (70%)
    2) Front squat 5x8
    3) Lunge 5x8
    4) Leg extension 4x12
    5) Calf raises 4x12

    Day B

    1) Bench press 5x8 (70%)
    2) Incline Bench 5x8
    3) Shoulder Press 5x8
    4) Skull Crusher 4x12
    5) Flys 4x12

    Day C

    1) Deadlift 5x8 (70%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Hip Thrusts 5x8
    4) Chinups 4x12
    5) Barbell rows 4x12


    Week 2

    Day A

    1) Squat 5x6 (75%)
    2) Front squat 5x8
    3) Lunge 5x8
    4) Leg extension 4x12
    5) Calf raises 4x12

    Day B

    1) Bench press 5x6 (75%)
    2) Incline Bench 5x8
    3) Shoulder Press 5x8
    4) Skull Crusher 4x12
    5) Flys 4x12


    Day C

    1) Deadlift 5x6 (75%)
    2) RDL 5x8
    3) Hip Thrusts 5x8
    4) Chinups 4x12
    5) Barbell rows 4x12




    ***for reference purposes***

    1) Main Lift
    2) Something hard like the main lift 5x8
    3) Something else hard like the main lift 5x8
    4) Something bodybuilder-y that hits the same muslces as the main lift 4x12
    5) Something else bodybuilder-y that hits the same muscles as the main lift 4x12

    Main lift progressions:
    70% 5x8+
    75% 5x6+
    80% 5x5+
    85% 5x4+
    90% 5x3+
    95% 5x2+


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